Talk:Lauri Törni

Untitled

small change, i changed Suuret suomalaiset to "great finns", not greatest. Suuret is plural of great and doesn't mean greatest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ir5ac (talk • contribs) 20:11, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Is news about his uniform jacket being stolen important enough to be added to this article? (Fi: http://ohjelmat.yle.fi/poliisitv/haemme_vihjeita) Yakuzakyuu (talk) 15:48, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Zagora mountains of Iran

There are a number of places in the world called Zagora.
None of them appears to be in Iran.
Could we please have a citation for that, or a correction with a citation?
Thanks, Varlaam (talk) 05:21, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Corrected the mountain name to Zagros – Kari Kallonen — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.94.195 (talk) 21:37, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Thorne SF jacket stolen in 2009

This page [1] has a story in Finnish about Thorne's SF tunic being stolen from a museum. Google translate does not provide sufficient details to say what museum. Thus I post the link here with hopes that a better translation can be provided. – S. Rich (talk) 02:06, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi again S. Rich, I don't think it was stolen from a museum. It could have been a private museum at the sauna/banquet facility. What it says is the jacket was on display at Sauna Baron Inc. (or Ltd.--Oy=Osaka Yhtea, the Finnish equiv. for Corp. or Company) on Maskun Road (in Turku).

According to SB's website, "Sauna Baron is a warm and personal , year-round, meeting and banquet place from 5 to 30 people , in the summer for larger groups . Saunaparonin sauna facilities are located in Masku near Turku , 8-way road just 15minutes drive from Turku. Located in Paroninmaja , in turn, provides a comfortable meeting rooms and banquet facilities throughout the year. At Sauna Baron you can organize almost anything: sauna evenings , meetings, training , workplace health holidays , birthdays , baby shower , bachelor party , class meetings, marketing events , first aid courses ... Let your imagination run wild and spend unforgettable moments at Sauna Baron.

Sauna is a huge part of Finnish culture, so it's normal to have one at the banquet facility.

See my talk page rel the other stuff you asked about. Regards, Paavo273 (talk) 10:22, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Other concerns about editing

Hi S. Rich,

Please see my comments under your heading at my talk page. I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of the tags, but will leave it as you've put it in deference to all your hard work and improvement of this article. It's not a QUOTE we need; it's PAGE numbers in the book, actual USE of the reference by one or more WP editors, an important function that is allowed and even expected under the rather rigorous WP:No original research policy and probably others. Otherwise we're not actually even USING the book. But the quote tag adequately makes the point for now I guess.

Regards, Paavo273 (talk) 18:25, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

We can put both tags on the section (page & quote). Will they attract interested editors to improve the page? As the article has less than 30 watchers, I don't know. As the the article is a work in progress, I expect to get it resolved with thought and more work. My objective is to get a Good Article. – S. Rich (talk) 19:24, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

S. Rich:

With the exception of this TLT book, I think you've definitely brought it a LONG ways in that direction. If you don't mind my asking, where did you find that book? I notice there's also coverage of it at FI WP. It's as one of the reviewers you cited said, some new kids on the block trashing a dead guy. They do the same thing to Mannerheim. Still a lot of resentment there. (One of the blessings of editing WP I've learned a lot of stuff along the way, some of which might actually be true.) There's STILL a lot of red vs. white bad blood in FI, something people don't like to talk about. It's why, e.g., they put the Mannerheim statue meant for Tampere nine miles out in the woods. Lots of undying memories of white army atrocities around there. You look at the political climate at the end of the CW, e.g., as in the patriot wartime president Ryti and others being thrown in prison, I don't think anyone with even a casual knowledge of that period in Finland is gonna' be very impressed with Pohjonen and Silv... Paavo273 (talk) 20:32, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi again S. Rich:

I added another tag that seems IMO more appropriate. I also DO think this is a dubious source, but I'll not add back my dubious tag for now out of respect for all your fine work here.

Rel the wording of your construction of the reviewers' take on the book, I cannot find that wording or meaning in my translation of the review.

IMO it is not a proper citation--#24 that includes both a reference to the book AND the review. Admittedly, I could be wrong about that. As far as I can tell, what you are citing is the review, NOT the book. Do you have any Wikipedia authority on citing that allows you to cite that way? If so, could you refer me to it.

Rel the goal of good article status, IMO that would be better served by more reliable source material, including if necessary about this subject.

Regards, Paavo273 (talk) 03:54, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you again. I have looked at Gill on-line and I'm waiting for a hard copy of his book. At that point I hope I can use him as a reference. Regarding footnote #24, I tried to give a very general description of what Silvennoinen is saying. But this is difficult because the book is in Finnish and this is the English Wikipedia. That is why I think the book reviews are appropriate -- they help with the general description of what Silvennoinen is saying. But I think Silvennoinen qualifies as WP:RS. As you said, there are Finnish WP articles about him and the book. Also, RS does not mean that books like Tuntematon must be scholarly. By using Silvennoinen, we are providing some balance to the Törni "cult". Please don't get me wrong when I say "cult". Törni was a soldier's soldier. I served with several such soldiers in my career and I want to do him justice. In my opinion, this means we should avoid the complex Red/White issues of Finnish politics. Please be patient. With your help I think we can get a Good Article out of this. – S. Rich (talk) 04:59, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

0. Rel your changing wording of edits I made, the issue is faithfully representing the sources, in this case the book reviews. Please discuss in talk HOW you believe your changes more faithfully represent the wording in Finnish.

1. Rel your remarks above, I'm not trying to rush anything. Just pointing out the problems I see.

2. Per WP:RS, "Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable. If the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses, generally it has been vetted by one or more other scholars." "Peer reviewed" literature of this kind w/b preferred.

3. Procedurally, I have NO problem with your citing the reviews. The problem IMO is with citing the BOOK itself at all since it is not being referred to except THROUGH the reviews.

4. I don't have a big problem with the material, EXCEPT for the citing issue, where it is and the way it is stated now where it doesn't draw undue attention to itself which could amount to giving it undue weight that it doesn't deserve. Regards, Paavo273 (talk) 18:13, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Allegiance in Infobox

IMO, adding the 3 allegiances in the infobox is problematic. He certainly supported Finland and he emigrated to the US. But did he have allegiance to Nazi Germany? Historian Jussi Niinistö seems to say no. I've seen other sources that talk about his qualms about taking oaths of allegiance to Hitler. With these factors in mind, I think removing the infobox allegiance parameter is justified. – S. Rich (talk) 17:05, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

He served in the German armed forces during World War II. Every fighting man with an article on here who served with Germany in the war is tagged in that manner. It doesn't mean Torni was a Nazi, only that he served in the military forces of Nazi Germany, which he in fact did. Jsc1973 (talk) 12:47, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

His fighting was more against the Russians and not for Nazi Germany. (Did he have allegiance to Germany as a country?) I will suggest posting allegiance to the Wehrmacht as the better description. In general soldiers fight for their units and for their fellow soldiers. – S. Rich (talk) 15:11, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

He can 90.240.179.227 (talk) 14:46, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

The fact that he served in Sonderkommandos Nord show that he was, indeed, a Nazi and fought for Nazi Germany Orocairion (talk) 12:31, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

For fun

Wouldn't this be fun in the External links section: [2]? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Srich32977 (talk • contribs) 03:48, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

War crimes

Why no mention of weather he was involved in war crimes or not?

He was part of the SS.

71.173.16.168 (talk) 04:14, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

There's no mention of it because he didn't commit any war crimes. Most soldiers, even ones who served in the Waffen-SS, don't, and we don't put "he was innocent of any war crimes" on the articles for every article about a soldier on here. He was assigned to the Waffen-SS because most foreign servicemen in German service during World War II were. You didn't want to be up against Torni if you were a soldier in a Communist country's army, but he always conducted himself honorably. Jsc1973 (talk) 12:47, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Are we seriously doing "Clean Wehrmatch" and "Clean SS" myths now?. Orocairion (talk) 12:32, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

He was accused of War Crimes, But most of the charges (Except High Treason) were dropped(?) due to the lack of evidence. 197.52.159.65 (talk) 11:23, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Branch

Minor technical issue here, but since so much of his military history is documented in the article, here is a fine point that begs to be clarified.

The article says he was commissioned in the Signal Corps (SC). Why? Were there no slots in the Infantry available at that time or did he have some communications expertise (what was his enlisted MOS)? Did he attend Signal Officers Basic Course? The photograph shows him as an Infantry officer, so when, or did he, complete Infantry Officers Basic Course?. (Special Forces (SF) did not have its own branch insignia until 1987, so SF officers wore Infantry insignia prior to that time and the photo was obviously taken prior to his service in Vietnam, since he is wearing only the Army GCM and NDSM ribbons.) Is there a reference citation for when his basic branch changed from SC to Infantry/SF?

Good article on a great soldier and just trying to help make it better. CobraDragoon (talk) 15:31, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

In reading the sources I do not see "why" he was commissioned into the Signal Corps. The sources may have info as to his enlisted service, but I have not read that deeply. SF units (not the branch) have existed since 1952, but since the article does not discuss his branch or any branch transfer in great detail it is not of editing concern. Author Gill may have more specific info. I hope I can look deeper in Gill and to find an answer to your inquiry. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 04:02, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

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Which image for the infobox?

When Egoist changed the infobox image (as an IP) I looked at the edit summary on the article and then checked the other WP articles on Thorne. A variety of images are used. True, the German WP uses the Waffen SS image, but German readers will have a greater interest in Thorne as a SS trained lieutenant. But most of Thorne's military career was with the US Army -- where he is an iconic figure in the SF community. This being so, it is more useful and helpful to the reader to see his US Army image in the infobox. As per my original edit summary, using the Waffen SS image in the infobox is WP:UNDUE because Thorne was with the SS for training and direct action against the Red Army, but not much else. He served with the US Army for a decade, and his US Army uniform is the one which most accurately depicts him. – S. Rich (talk) 01:44, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Alias in the German army

But wasn't his alias in the German army Lauri Laine instead of Larry Lane? His alias while traveling to Venezuela was also Eino Mörsky, not Elino. Hotaru.d (talk) 19:46, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

It was most likely a mixture of both names (Larry Laine being the alias.), He did also go by a couple others while his escape from the POW camp (Auli Haapalainen and Martti Ludvig Nikkanen.) P.S. You are right about Törni's alias for escaping to Sweden and then to Venezuela. 197.52.159.65 (talk) 11:27, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Lauri Torni, German, American.

The following was pasted from my talk page – S. Rich (talk) 18:03, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

I think we should add that out of respect for his service in the respective militaries regardless of birthplace, and previous service. The corroboration that is supporting him having a U.S citizen is his stature as an officer, Which can only be given to Citizens. And despite the S.S being controversial, Lauri Torni Did fought for Germany. I'm not adding German-American but German and American. I added different links to both words 'German' and 'American'. I'd appreciate if you'd do that as we've got to respect those who've fought for our country. They are who represent 'The U.S'. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 19:16, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

@Jack Morales Garcia: Thank you Jack. I'll get back to you tomorrow. – S. Rich (talk) 23:22, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

@Jack Morales Garcia: J. Michael Cleverly, in his A Scent of Glory says "Eventually, Slavs, Moslems, Indians, and other Asiatics joined those from all over Europe in the various units of the Waffen SS." (page 74. ISBN 9607663489. From this we can say these joiners did not become German-Slavs, German-Indians, German-Moslems, etc. In other words, they did not become "hyphenated Germans" simply because they signed up. Also we do not know what the citizenship requirements were to become an officer in the Waffen SS. Just because some armed forces require citizenship of their officers (like in the US), we cannot assume that other armed forces do the same. In Thorne's history we know he petitioned for US Citizenship on 1/27/1954 and started US Army basic training on 1/28/1954. He got his citizenship in 1955. He became a US Army officer in 1957 via OCS. I hope this history answers your concerns. Thank. – S. Rich (talk) 03:58, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Well at least add an 'American'term. Jack Morales Garcia (talk) 17:56, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Commemoration section, November 2024

Moved from my Talk Page: I noticed while reading through the edit history for Lauri Torni's article that on several occasions users attempted to add to the commemorations section a song produced by a power metal band about the man in question, and every time you would revert the edit as "trivia". I am curious; Why would a book (The Green Berets) which has a character that is based on Torni be considered a commemoration and worthy of being part of the article, but a song celebrating the life and actions of the man would not be worthy of being in the commemoration section? Why does him being the 52nd most famous Finn according to a TV show count as a commemoration by this standard? DaytimeElm (talk) 21:49, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

DaytimeElm you're a new account and this is your first and only edit? Mztourist (talk) 03:05, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

First, no. I have made anonymous edits in the past. I created this account because 1) I figured I might as well at this point, and 2) I wanted to be able to receive notifications.

Second, the history of my own account is not relevant to the discussion. I saw in your previous edits where you requested BRD, and no one else seems to have started this discussion with you.

So again, because I am curious, under what standard are we using for this section to distinguish between commemoration and trivia? Why is a ranked list from a TV show and a character in a book based Torni both considered commemorative, but a song dedicated to his life and service is not eligible? DaytimeElm (talk) 03:11, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

What "anonymous edits" have you made in the past? Mztourist (talk) 03:18, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

If you really care, I've gone through pages and seen small errors: claims without citations, redundant statements, etc. I haven't dedicated a huge amount of my time to it, though I do like seeing the edit history of these pages.

That still is not relevant, though. I will ask for a third time: What standard are we using to distinguish what is commemmoration and what is trivia? DaytimeElm (talk) 03:23, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

It is because a new user coming to my Talk Page to discuss a very specific point screams out WP:SOCK. Read Wikipedia:"In popular culture" content and specifically "If a cultural reference is genuinely significant it should be possible to find a reliable secondary source that supports that judgment." Mztourist (talk) 03:33, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer. For what it is worth, I would suggest visiting WP:BRIEFLY before accusing accounts of sockpuppetry just for being new.

Having looked through WP:IPCEXAMPLES , I can understand the hesitancy to include a reference to that particular song for not having a secondary source. However, by the same metrics written therein, I am not sure that the reference to Suuret suamalaiset should remain, as Torni has not acknowledged his inclusion (on account of being deceased), it did not seem to have any real world impact, and the existence of the show did not depend on Torni being included. DaytimeElm (talk) 04:00, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

You can raise that for discussion, while you make "many more contributions" to other pages on WP. Mztourist (talk) 04:12, 28 November 2024 (UTC)