Talk:LGBTQ rights in the State of Palestine

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2020 and 24 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jasminty23.

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 January 2019 and 18 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Khandrius0824.

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Opinion poll

89% of Palestinians believe homosexual behavior is immoral according to The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society by PEW Research Center, page 81. Only 1% find it morally acceptable.

Blackmail Section

This section appears to be inaccurate. There are three references listed. The first primary source referenced lists not the IDF as blackmailing LGBT individuals, but the Palestinian Authority Police, so this should be corrected. The second claim that the Israel Defense Forces pry into internet activity or phone calls to specifically weed out LGBT people is not mentioned anywhere in the reference material at all, and appears to be an unsupported claim. The third reference is listed in apparent support of the final statement, but is a Guardian article reporting on government surveillance in general, not of LGBT people, in the Palestinian Territories. One could mention that the Israeli government has perhaps intercepted phone or internet activity for monitoring in general, but that discussion wouldn't be relevant in an LGBT article unless it specifically had to do with LGBT people or rights, or it was demonstrated in some way that LGBT people were being targeted by the Israeli government or IDF. The Guardian article mentions that one of the monitors was trained to recognize the word for "gay" and notes that potentially compromising information on surveillance targets was collected, "juicy" info as he put it, but it appears as well, from this article, that people weren't targeted for being gay, but were targeted for other reasons, then general information was collected on them that could be controversial. So, the claim that the IDF was targeting gay people is unsupported. Indeed, the article only talks about personal information in general that was collected: "difficult financial situation, sexual preferences, a person’s chronic illness or that of a relative, and necessary medical treatment", and doesn't specify that sexuality was especially used.

Therefore, the first sentence is being corrected to reflect the reference material that is cited. The second sentence, which claims Israel surveils specifically to target LGBT people is not supported by the reference material, is being removed entirely. The third sentence, quoting an Israeli Intelligence Corps officer, talking about gathering information on an individual that interests them incorrectly misleads the reader into thinking they have been targeted for being LGBT, which is not supported by the references, and although the quote may be accurate, it is not relevant to the subject of this article, so is being removed. Adrade (talk) 11:25, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

First source talks about both, I have edited it to reflect source. Removed quote. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:31, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Could you tell me where? I reread the article just now and the article mentions only blackmail by the Palestinian Authority police, not the IDF. I think you're misreading the story of Majd. The ISF offered him protection from the Palestinian Police for cooperation, in addition to permits to visit his boyfriend in Israel whenever he wanted, but did not threaten him if he didn't cooperate. The latter is what blackmail is. In the end, he did NOT cooperate, and the IDF did nothing. If you're referring to another portion of this article, please name something perhaps that I'm missing. Adrade (talk) 21:16, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

" A man on the other end introduced himself as Alon and said he was an officer in Israel’s domestic intelligence organisation known as the Shin Bet." ?? Makeandtoss (talk) 21:22, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

I understand that he met with the Israeli Intelligence... how does this jump to blackmail, though? Adrade (talk) 21:33, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Deletion of Pinkwashing/US Tour sections by anonymous IP

Greetings, I responded to a friend's complaint that these sections were deleted from an anonymous IP without explanation; indeed, there is no explanations in this talk page at all. I'd like an editor to help with this. I've asked that whoever added the sections cite some sources for them. Thanks! Joel J. Rane (talk) 00:38, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

This is controversial material that should remain off the page unless adequately sourced using reliable sources. Plot Spoiler (talk) 17:44, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

I do not think it is controversial to mention pink washing if you use reliable sources to describe the definition of pink washing. whether you agree if pink washing exists, or if it is malignant, it is relevant to the discussion of LGBTQ activism in Palestine and Israel. Reliable sources on defining pink washing include: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/23/opinion/pinkwashing-and-israels-use-of-gays-as-a-messaging-tool.html http://homonationalism.org/about-the-conference/ Political opinions aside, the City University of New York and the New York Times are trusted sources to at least learn about definitions of terms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcgreenberg (talk • contribs) 16:42, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

The first link is an op-ed and the second doesn't load. Definitions of terms are only relevant if you can establish that the term is relevant. Perhaps you could mention that Israel has been accused of "pinkwashing" but I think you'd probably also have to support the accusation - I guess from my limited knowledge of this particular accusation, it appears that either any publicity that Israel has protections of LGBT rights or any efforts to attract LGBT tourists are all being labeled as "pinkwashing". According to the wikipedia article, "In the context of LGBT rights, it is used to describe a variety of marketing and political strategies aimed at promoting a product or an entity through an appeal to queer-friendliness, primarily by political or social activists. The phrase was originally coined by Breast Cancer Action to identify companies that claimed to support people with breast cancer while actually profiting from their illness." In the first context, I don't understand why a company like United Airlines couldn't be accused of pinkwashing by promoting tickets to Pride events (an example of a very common business activity that many if not most people would recognize as supporting the LGBT community). In the second context, accusations of this against Israel would be suggesting that Israel appears to support LGBT people /only/ to materially benefit from that support in some ulterior way. Public support polls in Israel of LGBT rights would not support this accusation.. Adrade (talk) 22:32, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Absolutely true, I’m with you! This is outragous, it seems that censorship is no longer just censorship. And vandalism is actually what’s happeneing when not all information / true information is allowed to be added. Shumanwales (talk) 16:38, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Criminal Law section

I noticed that the claim made here is actually inconsistent with the document cited. The fact is that male homosexuality was de-criminalized in the West Bank when it was under annexation by Jordan. The ILGA association document clearly states that male homosexuality is legal in the West Bank, which is accurate. Hence claiming that "Palestinian Authority law prohibits sexual relations between two men" is false (given that the PA controls the West Bank). Male homosexuality is indeed illegal in Gaza, which is also accurately reflected in the ILGA document.

I notice that User:I.Casaubon who made the inaccurate edit [1] seems to be a consistently controversial editor. I recommend we return to User:Wikignome0530 version of Jan 29, 2009 [2] or similar. I plan to make this edit in the coming days Yavanna of Valinor (talk) 06:54, 30 October 2011 (UTC).

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Marriage in the Palestinian territories which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 04:31, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 20:15, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Activism section

I added a section detailing organizations in Palestine and Israel that specifically address Palestinian LGBTQI rights, identities and communities. I briefly mention pink washing and "intersection." I do not know if I should add the discussion of homonationalism and the organization Pinkwatching Israel. Does this section belong on another page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcgreenberg (talk • contribs) 16:38, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Organizations in Israel that deal specifically with Palestinian LBGT rights would be better placed in LBGT rights in Israel page as opposed to this page. Suggestion that this section be edited to better highlight what these groups have done towards activism within the Palestinian territories. I removed the sentences that are cited by reference 15, as the citation leads to broken website. If it can be properly cited, someone can undo that edit.Eframgoldberg (talk) 18:35, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

As a general rule, Eframgoldberg, it's best not to remove content just because the reference's url doesn't work. Check the Wayback Machine to see if there's an archived version and modify the citation to include a link to it. (See WP:WAYBACK for guidance on how to do that.) Failing that, run a Google search to see if there's a new url for the website. And failing that, place a {{dead link}} tag after the reference. In this case, there is an archived version, but it looks like a primary source that doesn't really support the content you removed, so it all worked out for the best. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 19:14, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20071016202916/http://moh.gov.ps:80/index.asp?deptid=3&pranchid=21&action=articles to http://www.moh.gov.ps/index.asp?deptid=3&pranchid=21&action=articles

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Orphaned references in LGBT rights in the Palestinian territories

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of LGBT rights in the Palestinian territories's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "ILGA":

• From LGBT rights in the Maldives: State-sponsored Homophobia A world survey of laws prohibiting same sex activity between consenting adults
• From LGBT rights in Asia: "State Sponsored Homophobia 2016: A world survey of sexual orientation laws: criminalisation, protection and recognition" (PDF). International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association. 17 May 2016. Retrieved 19 May 2016.
• From LGBT rights in the United Arab Emirates: "State Sponsored Homophobia 2016: A world survey of sexual orientation laws: criminalisation, protection and recognition" (PDF). International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association. 17 May 2016. p. 37. Retrieved 19 May 2016. ILGA is informed that executions for same-sex sexual conduct (generally referring to hadd punishments) have not been implemented in either Qatar or UAE.
• From LGBT rights in Taiwan: STATE-SPONSORED HOMOPHOBIA

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 21:06, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

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Keeping content limited to the page subject

There are several instances in this page (see media/cultural and activism sections) where the content deals with LBGT rights in Israel, not the Palestinian territories. While there might be some importance in mentioning LBGT rights in Israel in context with LBGT rights in the Palestinian territories, I think some of the content on this page should be moved or edited to better represent the page topic which in this case deals exclusively with LBGT rights in the Palestinian territories. I removed one sentence from the family section that dealt with the LBGT scene in Tel-Aviv as it was not only irrelevant to the Palestinian territories, but the way it was worded "least prejudiced against in the area" could lead readers to believe that LBGTs are least prejudiced against within the Palestinian territories, whereas that assertion is not backed by a reliable source... but there are other more ambiguous sentences that perhaps others can help edit. For the media section, the films are Israeli films, and deal with LBGT issues in Israel, and while the inclusion of Palestinian characters is noteworthy, I think these films would best be placed under LBGT rights in Israel, as opposed to the Palestinian territories. If any of the films are relevant to LBGT rights within the Palestinian territories, perhaps someone can add those details and what content in the films deals with that subject. Under the activism section, the groups mentioned are headquartered either in W. Jerusalem or Haifa which are not considered to be Palestinian territories, so perhaps the section can be edited to highlight what work they have done within the Palestinian territories, to make it more relevant to the page.Eframgoldberg (talk) 18:28, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

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Requested move 21 March 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move the page to LGBT rights in the State of Palestine, per the discussion below. A redirect has been created from the originally proposed title. Dekimasuよ! 23:22, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

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LGBT rights in the Palestinian territories → LGBT in the State of Palestine – Consequent to Talk:Economy_of_the_State_of_Palestine#Requested_move_14_February_2016 to match use of State of Palestine instead of Palestinian territories by Palestinian Government and by the UN GreyShark (dibra) 17:06, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

• Comment. There are two sets of articles — some are styled as "LGBT in..." and others as "LGBT rights in..." (LGBT rights in Abkhazia, but not LGBT in Abkhazia) and still others as both (LGBT in Mexico and LGBT rights in Mexico) [see Category:LGBT by country and Category:LGBT rights by country]. Since there is no corresponding article for LGBT in the Palestinian territories, has an understanding been reached that the article under discussion contains a mix of both topics, but the predominant one is not "LGBT rights in..." as originally titled, but the proposed "LGBT in.."?    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 18:23, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
• Comment. I have no opinion on the proposed change from "Palestinian territories" to "State of Palestine", but I am bothered by the nomenclature of "LGBT in..." articles. "LGBT" is essentially adjectival, so this usage seems ungrammatical and I'd not like to see the creation of another article with such a title. I'd like to see this requested move amended so that it proposes making only one change to the title, not two. (Regarding the LGBT in Mexico article mentioned above by Roman Spinner, I'm going to leave a note on the talk page there.) Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 05:55, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
• Alternative naming - due to the comments above I would suggest LGBT rights in the State of Palestine as alternative target.GreyShark (dibra) 07:33, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

LGBT rights for women since 1951

Clearly, in 1951 this cannot refer neither to State of Palestine nor to the Palestinian Authority. There was Jordanian West Bank and Egyptian-controlled All-Palestine Protectorate. When was some legislation provided in modern West Bank?GreyShark (dibra) 15:31, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Illegal in West Bank?

@Dr. Mohmad: Stop edit warring and bring the discussion here. You want to add into the article that same-sex sexual activity is illegal in the West Bank. If you're confusing it with the August 2019 ban by the PA, from my understanding, the ban of "LGBT activities" is in regard to activism. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Don't forget to share a Thanks ♥) 12:06, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Hey I know what I am saying can you just read my edits I include evidence, it is illegal in the west bank and also if you read the article before I edited it you can see that the Palestinian president made all Jordanian laws that were active before 1967 inactivated, I am a Palestinian and I know what I am saying — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr. Mohmad (talk • contribs) 12:22, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

@Dr. Mohmad: You need to cite reliable sources that indicate that it's illegal in the West Bank. I have no reason to doubt what you're saying but it doesn't matter who you are or your background. Please cite your contributions and don't be disruptive. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Don't forget to share a Thanks ♥) 12:27, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

can I have what I previously wrote, I will add reliable sources to them, will you not remove it again — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr. Mohmad (talk • contribs) 12:30, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

@Dr. Mohmad: Link your reliable sources at the talk page first and we can reach a consensus on whether they pass or not. (Also, don't forget to sign your messages with '~~~~'.) Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Don't forget to share a Thanks ♥) 12:33, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

@Nice4What: the main article said that the same-sex activity Jordanian law alongside other Jordanian laws all was inactivated, how come you are preventing me from removing (legal) Dr. Mohmad (talk) 12:41, 20 August 2019 (UTC)Dr.Mohmad

The point is that the law is ambiguous. The PA has never made LGBT sexual activity explicitly illegal and there's no law against it. From this Vice article, "While Palestinian law doesn't criminalise homosexuality, it is socially taboo to be openly gay." Also, as cited in the article, "same-sex acts were decriminalized in the Jordanian-controlled West Bank in 1951 and remain so to this day." Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Don't forget to share a Thanks ♥) 12:43, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

@Nice4What: again its no longer decriminalized after the Palestinian president inactivated Jordanian laws Dr. Mohmad (talk)

That is WP:OR on your part and the reliable sources I've provided say otherwise. You've added information that people have recently been jailed for homosexuality for two years in Ramallah, though no court cases targeting homosexuality in Palestine can be found. Even the Associated Press wrote in 2015, "The Associated Press reported erroneously that homosexual acts are banned by law in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. While homosexuality is largely taboo in Palestinian society, there are no laws specifically banning homosexual acts." Also, revoking Jordanian law doesn't mean that British law is reinstated; there is still no law making LGBT sexual activity illegal. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Don't forget to share a Thanks ♥) 12:56, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Also, from the article in regards to Jordanian law in Palestine, "the President of the Palestinian Authority issued his first decision on 20 May 1994 which provided that legislation and laws that were effective before 5 June 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip would remain effective". Since the Jordanin law in question is from 1951, it would remain in effect. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Don't forget to share a Thanks ♥) 12:59, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi, having read the article and this talk page, particularly this section, "Possible Vandalism", and "Legality of homosexuality in Gaza", I believe the article still has issues, and is possibly being vandalized due to the current conflict situation. It should be corrected and maybe protected.

The article still attributes the legal frame on same-sex activity in Gaza to Hamas, but the source is a 2010 ILGA compendium that attributes it to PA (which does not rule Gaza now, nor it did in 2010).

In Gaza, via multiple sources (many reported in said sections of this talk), both "sodomy" and "carnal knowledge against the order of nature" are ruled by the 1936 British Mandate penal code, making consensual "sodomy" legal above 16 years of age, and "carnal knowledge against the order of nature" illegal (that section of the penal code goes together with bestiality being illegal); said law is not being currently enforced. The article states that "some claim" this legal frame exists, making it look uncertain and/or unsourced, even though it's actually supported by multiple sources.

In the West Bank, same-sex activity is legal since 1951.

While LGBT people facing queerphobia in Palestine is certainly true, even more so where fundamentalist groups are present, the article should not be reporting incorrect information about the legal frame.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Poiutredsa (talk • contribs) 12:01, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I will add this as a reliable source (Palestinian Legislative Council) about which penal code is in use in Gaza: https://learningpartnership.org/resource/palestine-gaza-penal-code-british-mandate-criminal-code-document-arabic

"Three penal codes have the same legal importance in Gaza. They are the Palestinian Criminal Code, British Mandate Criminal Code, and Egyptian Penal Code. Whenever a provision in one law contradicts a provision in another law, it is the most recent one that supersedes."

Of these three, the British Mandate is the only one mentioning "sodomy" (ie sexual activity between men) and "carnal knowledge...". Egyptian penal code (residue of Egypt's rule on Gaza decades ago) has a more generic "prostitution and debauchery" provision. The Palestinian penal code is silent on same-sex sexual activity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Poiutredsa (talk • contribs) 12:48, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

An edit war has been going on over the article, about the legal framework. I corrected the article at the best of my abilities to report the actual legal framework based on available source material, I ask the community to please double check it and then maybe protect or semi-protect the article. One thing I could not rule out is the "10 yrs imprisonment" in Gaza (see last section of this talk page) so I did not delete it, however it looks like the criminal law on this matter is ambiguous at best, and not enforced, so maybe it should be put next to a question mark rather than depicted as certain.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Poiutredsa (talk • contribs) 20:03, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Ok. This has been addressed, presently, with more ambiguity in the article. Historyday01 (talk) 14:58, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Palestinian authority not Palestinian state

Calling the Palestinian authority the Palestinian state, the Palestinians are occupied and don’t have a state or autonomy. Calling the Palestinian authority “the Palestinian state” is misleading making it sound like the Palestinians are living in freedom of rights.

Let’s be honest and call it the name it is, the Palestinian authority. A T5345588 (talk) 17:40, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

The Palestine State is recognized by 138 countries. Also, the name "State of Palestine" is used on other pages as well. I don't see any reason to change it. User:DontWannaDoThis^≠ 06:05, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Hamas

Hamas is a terror organization that force itself upon the poor Palestinians. Why not saying things the way they are? The EU listed Hamas as one of the world wide terror organizations. The USA recognizes it. And the rest of the world as well. A T5345588 (talk) 17:42, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Possible Vandalism

It appears that someone removed the reference to British Mandate Criminal Code Ordinance No. 74 of 1936, Section 152 in the second paragraph of "Criminal law and civil rights" of this article, despite that being in the cited source. Does this constitute vandalism, and if so, can we revert it? MyonyMyon (talk) 15:05, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Also worth pointing out: the purported quote from Amnesty International's report on Palestine is not actually present in the document. This also might be a case of vandalism. MyonyMyon (talk) 15:08, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

To confirm, it was an earlier version of the page that mention Penal Code 152. That said, the full name is 'British Mandate Criminal Code Ordinance 1936, Section 152(2) Sexual Acts Between Men', making the text, as currently exists, incredibly deceptive. It implies that these things were put in place by Hamas under Islam, yet none of the referenced documents discuss either Hamas or Islam. EthelThurston (talk) 03:12, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

I did some updates of the text. It turns out there is no consensus on whether that penal code is even applicable... some organizations and people say it is, others say it isn't. Historyday01 (talk) 02:25, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

The article's content seems very precise now.

Summary sections/ info boxes could maybe be improved: "no consensus" is a good description of the situation. As to the subject of this lack of consensus, though, maybe "sodomy" is not it. Section 152 is about "Sexual offences". Section 152(1) explicitly names sodomy, but criminalizes it only when there's coercion (ie rape). In fact, HDT (see source) attributes a possible criminalization of homosexuality to section 152(2): "carnal knowledge of any person against the order of nature". So maybe, instead of "Gaza Strip – no consensus on applicability of British 1936 sodomy provision to homosexual conduct", these summaries could use a simple "Gaza Strip – no consensus on applicability of British 1936 Sexual offences provisions to homosexual conduct".

Either way, this page should be updated too: https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory (but I'm not sure how to do it). Poiutredsa (talk) 15:41, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm fine with updating it to "Gaza Strip – no consensus on applicability of British 1936 Sexual offences provisions to homosexual conduct". Historyday01 (talk) 15:57, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Legality of homosexuality in Gaza

The article states that homosexuality is punishable by a 10-year penalty according to Section 152 of the penal code, citing Amnesty International. However, this information is outdated as Amnesty International has removed the quote from their webpage.

the English version of the penal code is viewable here:

https://learningpartnership.org/sites/default/files/resources/pdfs/Palestine-Penal-Code-Gaza-1936-English.pdf

Quoting the answer from from https://law.stackexchange.com/a/96791/52752:

"In the section 152 of the penal code:

• 152(2)(a, c) proscribe what they appear to euphemistically describe as “carnal knowledge against the order of nature,” which they indeed sanction with liability to imprisonment for 10 years as felonies.
• 152(1)(a, b) freely make explicit references to sexual intercourse and sodomy respectively, without any apparently perceived need to obfuscate them with the use of such euphemistic expressions.
• These all taken together suggest on one hand a degree of mercy and measuredness in the penal code as written, and on another that carnal knowledge against the order of nature doesn’t actually refer to sodomy as such."

Additionally, the absence of reported cases of people being tried for sodomy in Gaza raises doubts about whether "carnal knowledge against the order of nature" is currently interpreted as sodomy.

But it is likely the case, since in countries with similar laws, like Botswana, where "carnal knowledge against the order of nature" was challenged for vagueness. The court upheld it's definition to mean anal sex. https://www.law.utoronto.ca/sites/default/files/documents/reprohealth/botswana_2019_decriminalize_homosexuality.pdf

Bowad91017 (talk) 01:08, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, well the article should surely be updated then. Historyday01 (talk) 22:53, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Opinion in beginning of article

The beginning of the article previously stated:

"In the Gaza Strip and West Bank, the local [[LGBT community]] faces a precarious situation due to the general lack of civil rights legislation aimed at tackling discrimination. However, there is also a significant legal divide.."

The underlined portion is pure opinion, and should not be included in future versions of this article.

3howley (talk) 16:26, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

I can agree with that. It has been a challenge to ensure that opinions aren't included, but the page is surely better than it was in the past. Historyday01 (talk) 18:09, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Editing lead

I have edited the lead to place a greater emphasis on the lived reality of LGBT people in Palestine as opposed to the theoretical legal situation. Charlie Campbell 28 (talk) 08:32, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that. Historyday01 (talk) 01:04, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

why is the article referring to the "state of palestine"?

disregarding that many of the criteria of statehood are not met, doesn't that also suggest that gaza is not part of palestine? also, the recent debates over palestinian statehood (two state solution, "give the palestinians a state", etc) seem to reflect a widely adopted view that there (currently) is no such thing as a palestinian state. 2001:4BB8:2DC:7B87:0:0:51:BABD (talk) 00:04, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

The State of Palestine is officially a political entity which comprises the West Bank and Gaza. Now, you can get into whether that is actually a state or not, but that's not what this page is about. It's better than saying "LGBT rights in West Bank and Gaza." Historyday01 (talk) 00:35, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

but is it better than saying "lgbt rights in palestine"? 2001:4BB8:2DC:7B33:0:0:6F:1A6E (talk) 11:18, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Since the State of Palestine is officially a political entity which makes laws and decisions, I'd say it makes sense, as saying "LGBT Rights in Palestine" could lead to debate about the borders of Palestine itself. So for now, I think the current name is fine. Historyday01 (talk) 12:41, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

"The State of Palestine" is a well-defined political entity (even if the nature of that entity is not clear). "Palestine", however, is ambiguous — do you mean the territory called Palestine in 1947 (often known as Mandatory Palestine)? Do you mean the "Occupied Palestinian Territories", as some nations describe the parts of 1947-Palestine that are occupied by Israel but administered by the PA or Fatah or Hamas ?

I think using the UN-recognised term is clearer and less ambiguous, at least until-and-unless the political situation changes. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 16:25, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

That's said much better than I could say it. Just saying "Palestine" could be too ambiguous. Historyday01 (talk) 16:46, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Regarding mentions of "Queering the Map"

It is highly worth noting that Queering the Map is a community mapping platform, on which anyone may submit a location and a story, regardless of their actual location in the world - so long as it follows moderation.

Its data should not be taken for granted.

Current quote:

During the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, some Palestinians, who considered themselves part of the LGBT community, shared information in anonymously geotagged posts on Queering the Map. It was said that this provided a "rare glimpse" into perspectives of queer Palestinians, with many messages expressing solidarity with the Palestinian liberation cause. Others said that Palestinians were sharing their "last words" on the platform.

Swpznpe (talk) 21:31, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Ok. I still think we should mention it regardless. It almost seems you are saying it SHOULDN'T be included, which would be wrong. I have no issue with its inclusion and I'm not sure why (it seems) that you do, especially with present qualifications in the text.--Historyday01 (talk) 23:13, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

On the contrary — I highly believe this a worthy and important mention, and removing it will be a dire mistake. Though, this section is (or was) presented far too objectively than the information actually is.

That's what I meant by "worth noting". Per example of uncertainty, we don't know if these geolocation pins were placed by some Harvard students seeking to attract crowd empathy; or an actual Palestinian sharing their personal story.

Presenting it as facts is simply misleading. Swpznpe (talk) 06:38, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Here's my revised paragraph. Feel free to use or change it at your will:

During the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, anonymous individuals identifying as part of the Palestinian LGBT community shared geotagged posts on Queering the Map, a community-based online collaborative and counter-mapping platform. Queering the Map allows submissions from anyone, regardless of their actual location, and while moderated–the authenticity of stories is not verified. According to Time, this provided a "rare glimpse" into perspectives of queer Palestinians, with many messages expressing solidarity with the Palestinian liberation cause.. Others stated that Palestinians were sharing their "last words" on the platform.

Swpznpe (talk) 12:23, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Ok. Thanks for sharing. Historyday01 (talk) 13:35, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 June 2024

Following discussion of Queering the Map, the below revision suggestion was put fourth to be replaced under Israeli-Plaestinian conflict, Queering the Map, to tone down biased language when it comes to presenting its data as facts, and include more context on the platform's authenticity of data:

Current text:

During the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, some Palestinians, who considered themselves part of the LGBT community, shared information in anonymously geotagged posts on Queering the Map. It was said that this provided a "rare glimpse" into perspectives of queer Palestinians, with many messages expressing solidarity with the Palestinian liberation cause. Others said that Palestinians were sharing their "last words" on the platform.

Suggested text:

During the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, anonymous individuals identifying as part of the Palestinian LGBT community shared geotagged posts on Queering the Map, a community-based online collaborative and counter-mapping platform. Queering the Map allows submissions from anyone, regardless of their actual location, and while moderated–the authenticity of stories is not verified. According to Time, this provided a "rare glimpse" into perspectives of queer Palestinians, with many messages expressing solidarity with the Palestinian liberation cause. Others stated that Palestinians were sharing their "last words" on the platform.

---

The above revision provides more, detailed context regarding the nature and potential authenticity of the aforementioned posts, and presents them in a more objective view. It also expands on internal references to other pages for clarification of the idea of "geomapping" and alike. Swpznpe (talk) 13:16, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: I don't think the above revision is workable, relies too much on the "https://www.queeringthemap.com/" source to question existing text. So, it will NOT be implemented. The suggested / proposed text would plainly violate WP:NOR as it includes TOO many of your own views (presumably) on this matter. Also, the present text is DIFFERENT from what you presented, so it puts this request into even more question, since the current text was changed to address your previous concerns:

During the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, some Palestinians, who considered themselves part of the LGBT community, shared information in anonymously geotagged posts on Queering the Map, a community-based online collaborative and counter-mapping platform. It was said by Time that this provided a "rare glimpse" into perspectives of queer Palestinians, with many messages expressing solidarity with the Palestinian liberation cause. Others stated that Palestinians were sharing their "last words" on the platform.

Historyday01 (talk) 15:05, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

References

Palestinian Activism - Islamist Opposition - Israel Far-Right Reference

Hello All,

I'd like to bring attention this revision here regarding the inclusion of Islamist Opposition done by @MWQs - https://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=LGBT_rights_in_the_State_of_Palestine&oldid=122735095,

Specifically, the quote regarding that "Islamist groups in Palestine comment on LGBT issues far less often than far-right religious politicians in Israel. But the very small group.... ".

I'd like to dispute the neutrality of the writing of this portion. It couches its claim in opposition to or "as compared to" Israel rather than referencing Islamist sources alone. I think this should be rewritten by removing the Israel portion (or separating that into a different portion) and having this section solely place its information (or lack thereof) by Islamist opposition. Testyman123 (talk) 20:55, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 June 2024

In the heading labeled "Islamist opposition" the sentence stating "Islamist groups in Palestine comment on LGBT issues far less often than far-right religious politicians in Israel. But the very small group the Palestinian Mujahideen Movement (the political wing of the Mujahideen Brigades) have recently been critical of UNWRA promoting what the group see as un-Islamic values, including LGBT issues." should be changed to "The Palestinian Mujahideen Movement (the political wing of the Mujahideen Brigades) has been critical of UNWRA promoting what the group sees as un-Islamic values, including LGBT issues."

The original sentence statiing that "Islamist groups in Palestine comment on LGBT issues far less often than far-right religious politicians in Israel" is flawed for several reasons. One it's someones biased opinion, two it has absolutely no support, and three it is not neutral as it includes language unnecessarily comparing it to Israel, which is not the subject of the sub-heading. Similarly the language in the second sentence stating that "Palestinian Mujahideen Movement" is a "very small group" is both gratuitous and also not supported by any publication. Apndrew (talk) 00:13, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done Agreed, removed unsourced WP:OR – macaddct1984 ^{(talk | contribs)} 13:37, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I do think the "Islamist opposition" section needs to be expanded, however. Historyday01 (talk) 15:01, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 July 2024

Typo/grammatical fixes on subheadings:

• "One controversial Al-Qassam Brigades comadner" is probably meant to be "One controversial Al-Qassam brigades commander".
• "Israeli–Palestinian conflict" uses an en dash when it should grammatically be a regular dash: "Israeli-Palestinian conflict". 2A02:A03F:6613:A400:A03E:70E8:2A20:7216 (talk) 07:52, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done:

• The section with the commander typo has been removed entirely
• An en dash is appropriate as per MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES -- macaddct1984 ^{(talk | contribs)} 16:49, 13 July 2024 (UTC)