Talk:Kurdish language/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Obsolete Map

Couldn't the one with the Soviet Union be please replaced with one where it is in Armenia (it is, isn't it?) where some of the Kurds live? Thanks. varbal 00:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

: [a] close to the vowel in box

Is this American English "box" or British English "box"? --Joy [shallot] 00:54, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Part of Iraq

Kurdish is an official language in the autonomous Kurdish region. It had a secondary official status even under Saddam Hussain in the region with radio programmes, news papers etc. There are many, many examples of languages having a regional official status

Welsh is official language in Wales but not in the rest of the UK, Sorbian is an official language in Sorb majority counties in Germany, Danish equally. Refdoc 17:33, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Kurdish is not an Official language yet in Iraq, part of iraq is not descriptive. A constitutional amendment is necesary for official status. I modified part of iraq to Kurdish Autonomous Region -- Cat ^chi? 04:47, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Correction, it's enshrined in the provisional constitution of Iraq as one of the languages of all Iraq.BovineBeast 21:19, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

According to the Article 4 of the new Iraqi constitution approved in October 2005, Kurdish is an official language of the country, not just Kurdish areas. Full text of the new Iraqi constitution Heja Helweda 22:08, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Statistics

The statistics are disputed, there are no accurate numbers refering to the factuality of the data its mere estimates. Could be more/less best to leave it disputed ;) -- Cat ^chi? 05:06, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

kurdish jews/jewish kurds

is kurdişch different language and/or dialect from "standard" kurdish. yes, i have already attempted to do internet research on this before posting this on here. ???Gringo300 05:02, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

the answer is as following...........

Kurdish jews are the same as muslim Kurds the only difference is the religion otherwise they lived together peacefully and celeberated comon none religion (national) ocasions together. even now when they are in israel they sill celebrate their Kurdishness.

answer:

jewish and christian kurds speak nothing close to kurdish. they speak aramic, which is a semitic language. it is VERY similar to arabic and hebrew. these kurdish jewish and christian communities started about 2000 years ago, where large groups of kurds converted.

Official Status of Kurdish in all Iraq

According to the Article 4 of the new Iraqi constitution approved in October 2005, Kurdish is an official language of the whole country, not just Kurdish areas. Full text of the new Iraqi constitution Heja Helweda 22:08, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Please don't revert "i" symbol in the Kurdish words

This symbol "i" has nothing to do with Sorani or Kurmanji, it is just a short pause (Saken or Sokoon in Arabic) between two consecutive consonantes in a single syllabus . There is no symbol in the Arabic based script for Sorani Kurdish, to represent it. So the word fire (very, much), is simply read as FRA (one syllable). The symbol "i" is not read, it just represents a situation in which two consonants ("f" and "r") should be pronounced together, with a very short pause. Indeed there is no vowel in between to connect the two, hence while pronouncing them, one can feel a very short pause. Example in Sorani: Min ( pronounced as MN, meaning "I", one syllabus), needs that "i" between the two consecutive consonants. You feel the the pause. The word Girtin(Take) (Sorani), which is GR--TN in two syllabus, for each pair of consecutive consonantes in each of the syllabuses, we need that "i" symbol. or the famous word bijî (sorani and Kurmanji)(Long Live), transliterated as B--ZHI, two syllables. The word Nardin in Sorani, (To Send), trans. NAR--DN, two syllables, in the second one, there is a pause and we need "i". Heja Helweda 06:34, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Indo-European linguistic comparison

WARNING! Practically all etymologies compiled in that section are false and should be removed. The words are not genetically related, and the similarity with the German or English synonyms is accidental. Perhaps somebody competent in Kurdish could find good examples instead? Enkyklios 14:05, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

No, Enkylios, we are not talking about Turkish and German. Kurdish and Germanic languages are from Indo-European origin; It's quite logical and possible to share some cognates as Arabic and Hebrew do. I (as a native Kurdish speaking) see no problem with the section. we cannot deny cognation of these words: Tarik=>Dark, kurt=>Kurz, Mang=>Month... and thousand other words (as in the table). I think we should remove that tagg.

Thank you. Diyako Talk + 17:46, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I am not talking about Turkish and German either. I am perfectly aware that Kurdish and the Germanic languages have a common Indo-European origin. The problem is that most of the etymologies which are quoted on the page are false; mang = month is a good etymology (Avestan māh-, PIE meh1ns-), but I am 100% sure that the similarity between, say, tarik and dark or kurt and kurz is accidental, i.e. due to chance and not to a genetic relationship (a common origin) of the words in question. I suspect that the compiler of the list didn't consult an etymological dictionary (either in Kurdish or in English/German), and he is obviously not a historical linguist himself. I have therefore put back the disputed-tag.

Even if I have to admit that I have no competence in Kurdish, I know enough about Iranian and Indo-European philology to reject the etymologies. When browsing through a Kurdish dictionary, I find numerous words which I am confident have good scientific etymologies, e.g.:

1. jin "wife" (Avest. janay-, Persian zan, Sanskrit janay-, Greek gynē, English queen, PIE *gwenh2-)
2. jiyan "live" (Avestan jī-/gay-, Persian žīvēt, Sanskrit jīvati, Greek bios, zōō, English quick, Latin vīvus, vīvō, vīta, PIE *gwih3(u)-)
3. mirdin "die" (Avestan mar-, məša-, Persian mīrad, murda, Sanskrit marati, mrta-, English murder, Latin morior, mors, PIE *mer-)
4. ser "head" (Avest. sarah-, Persian sar, Sanskrit śiras-, Greek keras, German Gehirn "brain", Latin cerebrum, PIE *kerh2s-)
5. sed "hundred" (Avest. satəm, Persian sad, Sanskrit śatam, Greek hekaton, English hundred, Latin centum, PIE *dkmtom)
6. zanîn "know" (Avestan zan-, Persian dānad, Sanskrit jānāti, Greek gignōskō, English know, Latin nōscō, co-gnitus, PIE *gneh3-)

Of course these etymologies are less conspicuous than the ones quoted in the article. But they have the important advantage that they are true. Enkyklios 16:42, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

So, what is your suggestion? You can edit the article. Diyako Talk + 18:21, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

In that case, I will take the liberty to replace the false etymologies with the scientific ones. However, since I have no competence in Kurdish, as I have already said, I ask you to chekc if my words do exist in the form and meaning which I have give them. Enkyklios 06:42, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

It's a good one but I think the Farsi column words are not correct; maybe those words are from another Iranian language. Diyako Talk + 10:35, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

My source of the Farsi forms was Bartholomae's Altiranisches Wörterbuch (1904), which quotes both the Sanskrit and Persian cognates of the Avestan words. I have now doble-checked the words with another dictionary and corrected some forms. Enkyklios 14:45, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Persian words:

1. zan (meaning: woman, wife)
2. zende, zendegi (meaning: alive, life)
3. mīrad, murdan, morda (meaning: dies, to die, dead)
4. sar
5. sad
6. dānam, dānad, dānestan (meaning: I know, knows, to know) Bidabadi 21:01, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your many corrections, Bidabadi! As said, I know practically nothing about Kurdish and Persian, and I have no hardcopy dictionaries of these languages in my personal library, so I had to rely on electronical dictionaries which, obviously, are not 100% trustworthy. Enkyklios 11:13, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome. About the second one (jiyan), there is the persian word jān which means the essence of life (and in the compound words, it has almost the same meaning as zōō, in Greek). I'm not sure if jiyān and jān are cognates or not (I'm not expert in philology). Bidabadi 21:06, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Jiyan ژیان (a Kurdish verb) does not mean Jan جان ( essence of life ) in Farsi but means Zistan زیستن (To live). I corrected it in the table. Diyako Talk + 21:12, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I know that they have different meanings. But, the two words don't need to have exactly the same meaning to be cognates. For example, mirdin (Kurdish), murder (English) and mors (Latin) do not have exactly the same meaning, but, they are considered to be cognates. Bidabadi 21:20, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes but also cognates may often be less easily recognised for example the two Kurdish and Farsi verbs "Jiyan" and "Zistan" are obviousley cognates rather than Kurdish Jiyan and Farsi Jan. The equivalent for Farsi "Jan" in Kudish is "Giyan".

Mesopotamia 21:30, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I think "Jan" and "zistan", both, are cognates of "Jiyan". Also I think "Giyan" and "Jiyan" have the same root and both of them are related to the Avestan root jī-/gay-. Bidabadi 23:46, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

For "murder" we have also "mirandin" in Kurdish. For "to live" we have Persian "zendeg kardan" and "zistan", the second one which is not use in daily Persian (for evidence no one sais : Man Der Tehran Miziyam* "I live in Tehran", in Persian they say "Men Der Tehran Zendegi Mikonam"; while all mentioned words and verbs in Kurdish are used in daily speech of Kurdish people) Adiabenese

Farsi and/or Persian

In various comparisons, the words Farsi and Persian are used interchangeably. Their ambiguous use in this article confused me at first, and I had to check to be sure that Farsi and Persian are indeed the same language, correct? A casual observer, like me, might very well assume that Persian and Farsi are something different. One or the other, or a reference such as Persian/Farsi should be used. Thanks. Malnova 20:11, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Proper name of the language in English is Persian. "Farsi" is the name of the language when speaking Persian. In articles here on English WP, editors should adhere to "Persian" and avoid use of the term "Farsi" which will needlessly confuse the reader, as you have related, and which is not uncommon. Saying "Farsi," when speaking or writing in English, is similar to someone, again when speaking or writing in English, calling French "francais". Hope that clarifies things. SouthernComfort 02:36, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

SouthernComfort, what you say is true but there can still be good reasons for calling the language either Farsi or Farsi/Persian. "Persia" carries connotations of refering to the ancient or pre-Islamic cilivization. As the country is called Iran, and has been for at least a century (right?), "Persian" might be confusing. The best choice seems to be between "Farsi" and "Irani" or between "Farsi" and "Iranian." Of course, the problem with either "Irani" or "Iranian" is that the country of Iran contains many nationalities and languages. In my experience, most US universities that have Farsi/Persian/Iranian language classes will simply call them "Farsi." Harvard favors "Farsi" for the 20th and 21st centuries. Also, I believe that international bodies use the term Farsi. The CIA Factbook uses "Persian." Ethnologue uses "Farsi." UNESCO seems to use both. Interlingua

killerdude494949

Actually, ever since the times of Alexander the great, the country was locally always called 'Iran.' However, the west would refer to Iran as 'Persia', until just recently it was begun to be called 'Iran' as a worldwide status. And no, the language is NOT called 'Irani' or 'Iranian'. The Iranian languages are the languages that arrived with the Aryans, and, in English AND Persian, the languages was never called 'Irani.' 'Farsi' is the Persian word for the Iranian dialect of Persian. 'Farsi' is not English but it is used more commonly than the term 'Persian.' In Afghanistan and Tajikistan, Persian is also in an offical status, but they are called 'Dari' and 'Tajik', respectively.

Comparison tables

I am going to put a dispute tag until the user can provide references for all the comparisons.

To me it looks like original research, so I will remove it soon if it is not backed up by source, and since Persian is my mother tongue language, without even checking, I am sure most of the words have been selectively chosen by a POV user --Kash 00:49, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Sources have been provided for the comparison Tables.Heja Helweda 00:50, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I think Kash is talking about the Differences between Kurdish and Persian section. The concern is not about the words themself, but the choice of them and the logic of that section. Ofcource we can find different words in Kurdish and Persian (otherwise, they would be a single language). It's like showing some different words in German and Dutch, to exagerate about their differences. Bidabadi 02:40, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Also. this sentence needs a credible source:

Due to this fact that Kurdish language as an Indo-European language did not come under the influence of other incoming languages has saved its genuineness in vocabulary. There are thousands of words that are cognates in Kurdish and European languages such as German, English, Latin and Greek

It was written by Dyako and was supported by a table which was totallty false (in terms of etymology) [1]. User:Enkyklios provided a new table. This new table doesn't support that sentence. There are many cognates in Indo-European languages. It doesn't imply that Kurdish language did not come under the influence of other incoming languages. Also, it doesn't mean that Kurdish is closer to European languages (compared to the other Iranian languages). Bidabadi 02:40, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

To compare close languages, you should compare the cognates. Listing some different words doesn't show anything. Because, even for different versions of a language, you can find different terms for the same concept. Bidabadi 13:22, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Gurani and Zazai

Gurani and Zazai are not considered Kurdish languages. Neither is Laki a Kurdish dialect. This is false information [2].

Also the estimates on the number of Kurds is high and not scientific. CIA factbook puts around 25 million and ethnologue puts it around 20 million worldwide.

Gorani, Dimili/Zazai and Leki are considered as kurdish dialects by some linguists, but by others not. The problem with the "NO-sayers" is that they take no consideration to, or are unaware of, the historic aspect of the Kurds and the Kurdish language. Kurmanji and Sorani are considered to be kurdish although the spread of these dialect came as an indirect result of the Ottoman-Persian wars during the 16-th century. Prior to this the kurds in the south spoke Gorani and in the north Dimili/Zazai there is also a close reation between these two dialects, closer than with Kurmanji. In between these two tialects were the nomadic Kurmanjs who spread to the north-west and south. In the south Kurmanji was influenced by Gorani and a mixture of Kurmanji and Gorani came to being, this was later called Sorani or south-Kurmanji.

What the "NO-sayers" also take no consideration of is that for example the Goranis call their dialect "Kurdi"(Kurdish) while the Kurmanj call their dialect Kurmanji, so i'd say Gorani is MORE kurdish than Kurmanji itself!!!

There are no accurate numers of how many Kurds there are in the world. "CIA factbook puts around 25 million and ethnologue puts it around 20 million worldwide" while other estimates are by Pelletiere years 1980-1986 7-7.5 million. Sabar: 7.6 million. Deschner: "more than 15 million". More: 20.1 million. Vanly: 20 million. Eickelman 23.5 million.

Pelletiere gives a figure or 3 million for the Kurds in Turkey in 1986, in 1991 the figures he gives is 8 million, an increase of 250% in 7 years?!

Prof. M.R. Izady gives the figures for year: 1990 26.3 million, 2000 36.2 million, 2020 63.0 and year 2050 90.2 million.

Language or Languages?

The title of this article should be Kurdish Languages. Most of the linguists consider Kurdish as a group of languages (instead of a single language). Bidabadi 22:32, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

any opinion? agree? disagree? Bidabadi 05:22, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Personally - being an English-speaking Brit - I would prefer not, for consistencies sake. If you think that Kurdish is a different language to, e.g. Zazaki - that should be reflected in the article content rather than changing the scope of the article. But I don't have strong opinion AndrewRT 10:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I have added a quotation from an article by Philip Kreyenbroek that may shed light on this issue. I have also included a shorter paraphrase of the same in the article on "Kurdish people." Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by "being an English-speaking Brit?" As someone with a master's degree in applied linguistics, I would say that it is legitimate, from a certain linguistic classificatory point of view, to refer to these as Kurdish Languages, but as a student of Middle Eastern Studies, I am aware that philological classification has been used to divide and manipulate societies. Hence, I do understand the need for some consistency (after all, readers should know what we're talking about or referring to) but this begs the question of what that consistency is meant to agree with--i.e., consistency with the way most English speakers understand terms like "Kurdish," or consistency with the ways in which linguists group languages/dialects and label them as such?

Kurdish is not a language even do not have a concrete literature. So a nation of Kurds cannot be claimed if one thinks reasonably. One dialect is so different from the other dialect even they cannot understand each other! That is wierd that there is so much noise about Kurdish and Kurds.(cantikadam 13:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC))

Bidabadi, I certainly can understand the linguistic argument that the levels of intelligibility among these dialects are low enough that classification as separate languages is majority view among linguistics. I would even go so far as to say that these linguistic differences are reflected in the political divisons among Kurds in the various countries and clans. Per the NPOV policy, and for informational clarity, however, we should describe this view (Who are the linguists in the majority? Who is in the minority, and what is their view?) but have the article title remain as the most common term used in Anglophone countries -- Kurdish language. As I like to say, "get the reader to the article first, and then educate them on backgrounds of alternate titles." -Fsotrain⁰⁹ 18:49, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

By a linguistically aspect, Kurdish people speak 4 languages. All of these 4 languages and their sub-dialects are called Kurdish by native speakers (Kurdî, Kirdî, Kur(d)mancî, Kir(d)manckî, Kirdkî). Totally Kurmancî (Kurmancî, Soranî, Kelhûrî), Groanî (Old Groanî, Lekî), Hewramî and Kirmanckî (Dimilkî, Kirdkî, Zazakî) are spoken among Kurdish people. All of them share such differences which make them to be considered as different languages. But the fact is that to understand and learn each of those languages (-dialects) is easier to each Kurd rather than any other language. As most of Kurds ( especially in Southern and Eastern Kurdistan and Kurds in exile, where to speak Kurdish is not forbidden) are fluent in at least two one of the mentioned speeches. Kurds themselves consider their tongues and their varieties as "dialect" and it doesn’t mean one tongue is dialect of the other one when you call it dialect. Existence of 4 Kurdish speeches is due the lack of a unique Kurdish government ruling all over Kurdistan. Also it's a point among all Kurds that the variation isn’t a strange matter. For instance in Kurdish speeches we have Kurmancî jî*, Zazakî jî*, zî*, Soranî –îş*, -îj*, -îç*, -îc*, Hewramî –îç mean. "too". In Soranî of Sine (Senendec) people use –îç, -îş and –îc and immediately understand each other! I never forget, in a shop while talking to the seller, I said "em-îş her ew qeymete'se?" ~ "its price is the same [too]?", the seller replied "erê, ew-îc her ew qeymete'se" ~ "yes, its price is the same [too]" then my maternal cousin asked the seller "ewe çe, ew-îç her ew qeymete'se?" ~ "what about that, is it at the same price [too]?". In less than a minute we used three different words meaning "too" and we all immediately got the pic. To exist such variation, -îç, -îş, -îc, -îj, is natural in Kurdish. My mother uses "-îş" more than the other varieties, so I do so, but my aunt, my mother's sister, often uses "-îç", so my cousin does, and the seller used to say "-îc". Such ability doesn’t exist in the other languages (as wide as it exists in Kurdish speeches). For example no one would understand you if you said "I so it", "I to it", "I zo it" or whatever instead of "I do it". Adiabenese

Article about the Kurdish Wikipedia

Hi, I was wondering if someone here could help add information to the article on the Kurdish Wikipedia? I don't speak Kurdish, so my knowledge on the subject is quite limited--all of the info is based on what I saw on the main page of the Kurdish Wikipedia.--ikiroid | (talk) 00:03, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

History

This strange sentence needs a credible refference:

The Kurdish language has its own historical development, continuity, grammatical system and rich living vocabularies in comparison to other members of the Iranian language family.

Also this sentece is misleading:

The claim that the Kurdish language has as their direct ancestor the language of the ancient Persia's Medes seem not to be supported by linguistic data.

Almost all the linguists beleive that all the modern western Iranian languages (including Kurdish dialects) are descendents of the old western Iranian languages (Old Persian and the language of Medes). Bidabadi 17:40, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Added respective source to the section. Formerly people thought so but if I'm not wrong not only there is no evidence for Kurdish being descendant of Medes language but also it seems that Kurdish is quite remote from it.Diyako Talk + 23:50, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

To contradict the veiwpoint of the linguists, you can not just rely on some webpage like [3]. Also, you haven't provided any credible refference for the first sentence. Bidabadi 05:38, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

The main problem is with the first sentece (The Kurdish language has its own historical ...). Don't remove the tag without mentioning a credible source. Bidabadi 17:21, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

number of speakers

since it says the number is disputed how many speakers are there really? --Revolución hablar ver 00:28, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

No one really knows there are figures from around 10 million to 55 milion, acording to BBC 40 million. Personaly i belive prof. Mehrdad R. Izady's estimate is quite resonable: year 2000, 36.2 million (source: Mehrdad R. Izady - The Kurds, A Concise Handbook)

---

What, 55 million??? This is unbelievable!!! Do Kurds believe this nonsense?

Cognates in the Language Tables

The entry for Mezin : (source [4])

Proto-IE: *meg'a- (/ *meg'ha-)

Nostratic etymology:

Meaning: big, great

Russ. meaning: большой

Hittite: makkes- (mekkis-) (I) 'viel werden', maknu- (I) 'vermehren', mekki- 'viel' (Friedrich 139)

Old Indian: máh-, f. mahī́, mahā́nt-, f. mahatī́ `great, large'; máhas- n. `greatness, might'

Avestan: maz-, mazant- 'gross'; mazah- n. 'Grösse'; maš (*meg'hs), aš (*m̥g'hs) 'sehr'

Other Iranian: Kurd. mǝzьn, Bal. mazan 'big'

Armenian: mec `gross'

Old Greek: mégas, n. méga, f. megálǟ `gross'; aga- verstärkendes Präfix, vorwiegend in älterer Sprache

Germanic: *mik-il-, *mik-ō adv.

Latin: magnus, -a `gross; lang, alt; laut, vornehm', magis `eher, vielmehr', magister, -trī m. `Vorsteher, Leiter'

Celtic: Gaul Magio-rīx, Are-magios, etc., dat. sg. Magalu (Göttername), Magalus PN, dat. sg. Maglo (Götter- und Personnenname); OIr sup. maissiu `maximus'; MIr maignech `gross' (?); maige `gross' (?), Poimp Maige `Pompeius Magnus'; mag-lord `Keule' < *mago-lorgā `grosser Knüttel', māl `Edler, Vornehmer, Fürst, König', mass `stattlich' (< *maksos); Cymr Macl-gwn, OBret Maglo-cune, Cono-maglus

Albanian: maʮ gross

Tokharian: A māk, B mākā (PT *mākā) 'many, much' (Adams 446) (source [5])

References: WP II 238

There is no Persian cognates in the Table, hence I removed the persian entry in the row for Mezin. Heja Helweda 20:54, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Also there is no French, Italian and Spanish word in that table. It doesn't mean that they don't have any cognate for mega. Bidabadi 15:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

.........................

Mezer

I think this word should be deleted from the table. The current reference [6] considers it as a loanword from Greek. Therefore, it can not be considered as a genuine cognate. Bidabadi 18:34, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

The author of that source is an academic and linguist. see Nebez for more information. Heja Helweda 05:12, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

According to himself, Mezer is a loanword from Greek [7]. Bidabadi 14:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

..........................

Beside "mazin" and "mezin" there exists "mez" too. --Adiabenese 16:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Please do not add words to the Table without academic evidence

For the persian Mah, there should be a clear citation from linguistic sources (not a simple dictionary) that it is a cognate of "Mezin". Thanks.Heja Helweda 04:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

First of all, its pronunciation is meh. Secondly, it is obvious that meh is cognate with the Sanskrit word maha. Its Pahlavi form is also meh (according to the maccenzie dictionary [8]). Bidabadi 15:13, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

There is no doubt that Meh means great, but the point is that you have to provide information about the cognates just like the other entries. Having similar meanings, does not guarantee that two words from two languages are related. We had a lengthy discussion long ago, and many of the entries (even Kurdish ones) were deleted due to lack of academic evidence. I asked you several times to provide an academic proof that Meh and Mezin are cognates, but unfortunately the links you provided are simple dictionaries. Look at the entry for Pez(Sheep), which is ultimately connected to Fee in English. Although they have very different meanings and spellings, yet they are linguistically related. Again similarity in meaning does not guarantee that words are cognates.Heja Helweda 05:00, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

False cognates

(From the article cognate)

False cognates are words that are commonly thought to be related (have a common origin) whereas linguistic examination reveals they are unrelated. Thus, for example, on the basis of superficial similarities one might suppose that the Latin verb habere and German haben, both meaning 'to have', are cognates. However, an understanding of the way words in the two languages evolve from Proto-Indo-European (PIE) roots shows that they cannot be cognate (see for example Grimm's law). German haben (like English have) in fact comes from PIE *kap, 'to grasp', and its real cognate in Latin is capere, 'to seize, grasp, capture'. Latin habere, on the other hand, is from PIE *ghabh, 'to give, to receive', and hence cognate with English give and German geben.

The same might be the case for Mezin in Kurdish and Meh in Persian, and that's why that the Persian word does not appear in the linguistic source provided in the article. Superficial similarity does not guarantee that two words are from the same roots (cognate).Heja Helweda 05:10, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

History section

Wow, the history section needs a cleanup. It's presently a rather POV rambling which wanders back and forth between the genetic origins of the Kurdish people -- which is not really the point when talking about the language -- and the origins of the language. Statements like this are particularly objectionable:

Most linguists assume that the Kurdic language is West Iranian, i.e. related to Modern Persian. It is assumed that the extinct language of the Medes, who lived in the area later occupied by the Kurds, was also West Iranian.

Er, linguists don't "assume" Kurdish is an Iranian language. It is. They no more "assume" it is than a zoologist "assumes" that a jaguar is a member of the cat family. The position of Kurdish within the Indo-European language family is fairly well understood.

As for the Medes, there isn't really any dispute that they spoke an Iranian language either, though there is less evidence as the language has been dead for hundreds of years. --Saforrest 06:11, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I,m the guy who wrote much of the historty. I wrote it because there was no stuff of history of the language. After me some users modified and reformed my version. So the current version is not totally mine but I agree with that. Yes, there is no need for genetical stuf, but pure linguistic, however including that makes no problem. Anyway, I'm waiting to see what others think. Wirya 09:30, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

The historry section is more on Kurds and their origin themselves rather than their language! Kurdish like Persian and Pashto stems from an Aryan origin nothing else is related to this issue. Please no history of Kurds but of their language. Jalalarbil 11:31, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, but now what is disputed by the current version which you have entirly modified?

Wirya 09:15, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Wurya, actually Jalal did a good job. let me clarify one thing for you. First, I'm glad that we have no problem regarding the Median origin proposal. But the second view is not accurate yet. It does not say anything about an Aryan origin (yes again Aryan like the first proposal!) of the language. Actually MOST of those people whom Kurds are decendant of were Aryan (i.e. Aryan-'speaking'). But we see in the second view a Caucasian is highlighted and claims an 'Aryan-influence!). This should be corrected. Ignore what Baathists or anti-Kurdish agenda say that Kurds were not Aryan. They try to make a tale for arabization or turkification of Kurds by saying your language is not originally yours so forget it and learn ours. The Kurdish mountains from antiquity were home to people who have been Aryan speaking. Read here: and learn more who are the original Kurds. The true Aryans of history! http://www.iranian.com/History/2005/March/Gutians/ Beriwan 14:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your explanation and the link. I fix it. Wirya 17:56, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Good, I personally have no serious problem with the new version. What about you? If not then can we remove the tag? Jalalarbil 18:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I have no concerns. Wirya 09:03, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Aryan

The current article makes extensive use of the word "Aryan". The problem with this word is that it can refer to either of:

1. Proto-Indo-Iranians, the linguistic ancestors of speakers of Iranian and Indic languages
2. Indo-Aryans (the Mitanni and the Sanskrit speakers who went to India)

The Kurdish language is the linguistic descendant of #1 but not of #2 (it is more like a linguistic cousin of #2).

I think it behooves us to use a more precise term than "Aryan". The problem is that the most obvious term to use, to refer specifically to the other branch of the Indo-Iranian family, is "Iranian". --Saforrest 06:46, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually Kurdish is the descendant of a non Indo-European language (Hurrian), with Indo-European influence due to Aryan migration. Kurdish vocabulary and grammar show Hurrian origin. Mitanni were the Indo-European rulers of a majority Hurrian population. Both influenced each others' languages, giving rise to modern Kurdish. Some new sources on this issue have been added.Heja Helweda 06:02, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the terms "Indo-Aryan" and "Iranic" could be used, to distinguish these categorizations from other usages.

an example passage from Mem u Zin

firstly read after to make a decision. is this realy "language" ?

Kurdish: nam ü neseba hwe hun ayan kın sırra dile bo mera beyan km (Mem u Zin)

Persian: nâm ü neseb-i hod tu ayan kun sırr-ı dil-e bo mera beyân kun

Kurdish: Hendan bı ke hunçeya dehane Nâlan ke hezare dasitane (Mem u Zin, s. 228)

Persian: handân be kun gonca-i dehân nâlân be kun hezâr dâsitân —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.99.95.155 (talk • contribs) 12:53, 13 September 2006.

Ok, you've given me two verses that show similarities between Persian and Kurdish. This makes sense because they're both Iranian languages. However, are you trying to prove that they're the same? Please remember that the vast, vast majority of sources show Kurdish as a separate language. In Wikipedia we give the majority view priority. I don't get what the point of comparing Kurdish to Persian is if hardly anyone disputes them being separate languages. —Khoikhoi 23:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Kurds who do not know Persian and Iranians who do not know Kurdish cannot understand each other. Even Kurmanji- and Sorani-speakers have problems understanding each other without knowing each other's "dialects." Note also that this genre of writing was historically aligned with Persian, i.e., because Persian was considered to be a language of high culture. Hence, poetic writings could similarly be analyzed to question the validity of separating Iranic languages from Turkic languages (which I don't think any of us would seriously question today).

A stupid comparing! The writer of the post doesn’t know Kurdish nor Persian. Exactly the Persian text seems to be a mixture of Soranî-Kurmancî and some Persian!

The correct texts :

in Kurdish :

(1) nam û neseba xwe hûn 'eyan kin **** sirra dilê bo mire beyan kin

(2) xendan bike xûnçeya dehanê **** nallan ke hezar dastanê

Persian translation :

(1) nam ve (o) nesebê xod ra eyan konîd **** sêrrê dêl ra berayê men beyan konîd "or" mera sêrrê dêl beyan konîd

(2) xendan bêkon ĝonçêyê dehan ra **** hêzar dastan ra bêsoray

The differences are clear.

Kurdish : Persian : English

nam : nam : name, noun; a pure Kurdish words which also exist in almost all Indo-European languages. Due a tendency in Kurmancî (changing m>v), in Kurmancî and Soranî dialects "nam" has been changed into "nav".

û : ve, o : and; both probably from Arabic "we", Kurdish "û" also could be derived from Avestan "ût" as in Kurmancî "û" doesn’t lie to the previous word. But in Soranî and Persian it does so (e.g. Sor. minû bawkim, Pers. meno babam, but Kurmancî ez û bavim)

neseb : neseb : origin; an Arabic loanword.

xwe : xod : own, self

hûn : şoma : you (plural); probably from Avestan "yûm".

'eyan kirin : eyan kerden : clarify; from Arabic 'eyan.

--- : ra : -- , an strange grammatical article, probably from Turkish effect.

kin : konîd : do it (yee)!

sirr : sêrr : secret; an Arabic loanword.

dil : dêl : heart

bo : berayê : for

ji … rê : berayê, …ra (Archaic) : for

beyan : beyan : clear, obvious; an Arabic loanword

xendan : xendan : while laughing, smiling; probably Persian loanword

bike : bêkon, bokon : do it, do!

xûnçe : ĝonçê : flower

dehan : dehen, dehan : mouth; Persian loanword

nallan : sorayîden, avaz kerden : to sing, to talk about in a beauty manner

ke : kon : do it, do!

hezar : hêzar : thousand

dastan, destan : dastan : story

-ê (dastan-ê, dil-ê) : ---- : the (the story, the heart)

Both xendan* and dehan* which are borrowed from Persian, aren’t and never been used among Kurds. The poet has used these two words in his poem itself. It's an effect from Persian literature.

Also there are equal words for all mentioned Arabic loanwords in Kurdish. --17:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)Adiabenese

Kurdish blogs

Kurdish blogs should be merged in this article since they do not have enough notability but they seem to be a tool of using Kurdish language freely.--Hattusili 05:30, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Kurdish course

Does anybody here know any free online course or any downloadable e-book for learning Kurdish? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.132.104.17 (talk • contribs) 05:02, 12 November 2006.

Native name

The native name in cyrillic according to this article, "Кчфг'и", is "Kchfg'i" when changing the letters to latin script. Shouldn't it be "Курди" or something? [ Smiddle / Talk - Contribs ] 19:28, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

All hits for кчфг'и are from Wikipedia. 20,000 hits for курди. I'm changing the article accordingly. —Wiki Wikardo 01:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Pharyngeal Fricatives?

Many Kurdish dialects are said to have pharyngeal fricatives, but I see no mention of these on this page. azalea_pomp

Yes, that's true, Kurdish has both voiceless (ħ) and voiced (ʕ) pharyngeal consonants. And it is not some Kurdish dialects but most of Kurdish dialects including both Kurmanji and Sorani. Asoyrun 11:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Iranian Kurds that left for Iraq

"As a result many Iranian Kurds have left for Iraq where they can study in their native language" .... The text

Entering universities in Iran needs to pass a difficult examination (Konkour) and Iranian Kurds going to Iraqi Kurdistan may originate from that and not language problems.--Alborz Fallah 18:50, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Xom Kirmashani, Farsi niezanim ---- We ziwane Kurdi derdit le giyanim I'm a 21 years old Kurdish student of Kirmashani origin studing in Tehran. Not only Kurds, but Azeris and Arabs wish to study in Turkey or Arabic countries respectively. Nothing can take "mother tongue"s place. If I had enough money I would study in Southern Kurdistan too. Also the Iranian exam for high education "Konkour" is almost over. Azad university is going to remove "Konkour" in all fields and grades. Also as it's clear to see 2012 or 2015 may be the last years Iranian government is gonna keep taking "Konkour" on. Shaho. M

The comments from some people seem to deny the existence of Kurdish language, please try to make scientific contributions rather than racist ones!

Cyrillic spelling

I have a book of Kurdish folk tales at home. The book was printed in Soviet Union and it is in Russian, but it cites sources written in Kurdish in Cyrillic script. The name of the language there is Кьӧрди. You can't find it on Google - i guess that very few people still use the Kurdish Cyrillic script, and no-one uses it on the Internet.

If anyone thinks that the language template at the top is not a good place for the Cyrillic name, then put it somewhere else, but please don't just delete it - it is a small, but useful bit of information. --Amir E. Aharoni 07:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

My mistake - i checked the book again and actually it's К'ӧрди. This version even appears a couple of times on Google. --Amir E. Aharoni 21:02, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Good News

Changing the Turkish alphabet to include the letters Q, W and X to appease Turkey's Kurds, who have previously faced prosecution for using these letters, might be amongst the "surprise reforms," mentioned by Foreign Minister Ali Babacan earlier this week, says a senior official from the Foreign Ministry. http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=127794&bolum=101 Brusk u Trishka (talk) 00:12, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

And this is relevant to the article how? -- Cat ^chi? 00:17, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this is somehow related to the article since it is already mentioned in the article that the letters have been so far forbidden. But it is also related especially to the article Turkish alphabet. Brusk u Trishka (talk) 00:20, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I do not know what you are talking about. Any keyboard sold in turkey has the letters Q, W, and X. You can buy any text in those letters. Either all computer shops and bookstores are intentionally and repetitively violating the rule or your statement is false. Even if such a ban did exist, it had been very loosely enforced, if enforced at all. Such laws do exist in other countries. For example in Michigan men are not allowed to have long hair per some 100+ year old ban. This is never enforced. Zaman is over dramatizing things me thinks. -- Cat ^chi? 03:53, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

You can find more infor here. Brusk u Trishka (talk) 10:20, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that section is quite biased. From what I can tell the law promotes the use of Turkish letters by banning all non-Turkish letters (for whatever the reason). This law only seems to apply to official documents. So non-Turkish letters such as Q, W, X as well as Σ, σ, Φ, φ, Ψ, ψ, Ω, ω, Θ, θ, β, Ώ, £, №, ₧, ₠, Љ, Њ, Ю, п and etc (Kanji, Hiragana, Katakana chars) were not allowed on official documents. I do not see anything Kurdish specific at all.

Please note that talk pages are intended to improve articles. They are not news tickers. This is not a forum. Such posts are unhelpful to the article development process. Please be more sellective in the future.

-- Cat ^chi? 11:39, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Your are wrong. in turkey use of letters of Q, W, X for Kurds is a criminal offense and could lead the poeple who used these leters to prison. Second I know that this is not a forum but the issue is quite related to the aticle. I just was not sure about the validity of source wether turkey really is going to drop the ban on using of these dangerous letters. Therefore I did not edit the article, and just left a comment here. Brusk u Trishka (talk) 10:53, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Comments from actual page

( FAULT! dinaWAR. WAR means "place" in kurdish, and many other iranian languages. That is sure not a "hurrian" word. Further on, M.R. Izadys research can be questioned on many places. Above here is "balik" mentioned . That is not a hurrian word like M.R. Izady writes, balik means "fish" in turkish and thats a turkish name , not the kurdish word.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Munci (talk • contribs) 19:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality of Dialects section

The reference citations are not corresponding to the statements made in this article. There is a clear need to present a non-biased article for the reader. Gbeebani (talk) 04:54, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Native name

What did you revert to using an Arabic ك in one كوردی, but a Kurdish ک in the other کوردی? I had put Kurdish ک in both places. Even in the Kurdish Wikipedia, the spelling is ku:کوردی with a Kurdish ک. —Stephen (talk) 17:14, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Pehlewaní

Why isn't there a mention of the Pehlewaní dialectgroup in this article? It used to be an independent article, however it now rederects to this one. There should be an independent article for this subject, or at least have its own headline in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.208.209.7 (talk) 21:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Roj Tv isnt kurdish tv it is terorist Tv PKK terorism

Roj Tv isnt kurdish tv it is terorist Tv PKK terorism —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.227.104.239 (talk) 17:03, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

What is this? An ignorant fascist writes things like this! The only terrorists are Ataturk and Turkey! BIJI PKK BIJI SEROK APO BIJI KURD BIJI KURDIsTAN!! Roj tv=kurdish tv=kurdish culture=kurdish life=freedom tv=peace tv