Talk:Kerma culture

Copy and paste issue

HI Skllagyook,while i agree with you that some of what I wrote was copy and paste from Coopers work i was unaware of the copy and paste rule,

OTOH i disagree with you that it was previously covered,cooper seems to imply that Meroitic or a Meroitic like language was spoken from at least 1800bc onwards (with the appearance of the words Kush and sai among middle kingdom toponyms),he makes it clear in his evan more recent paper (Cooper 2020 and 2017) that meroitic or meroitic like speakers may have been a new ethnolinguistic group in the dongola reach and upper nubia,implying that the pre and early kermans could have spoken a distinct lanuage from meroitic (though he does not entertain what languages these earlier kermans spoke).

thats the new information of my entry to the article was all about,i.e that meroitic may have its roots around that time 1800 BCE and that the earlier kermans spoke seperate language (what ever they were),i will remove the copy and paste parts and add my own twist. Jedorton (talk • contribs) 01:51, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

@Jedorton: Regarding new information in Cooper, it should not be assumed that he is arguing that the proposed Meroitic-related East Sudanic language of Kerma only arrived ther ca. 1800 BC. That is not clear. Although Cooper says that the Kerma people spoke an Eastern Sudanic Meroitic-like languages "by at least" 1800 BC, he also suggests, in his 2017 paper, that they may have also spoken one/a similar language substantially earlier.

On page 202 of his 2017 paper, Cooper also states that the Kerma people (and those of the nearby Sai polity) likely spoke an Eastern Sudanic language similar to Meroitic by at least the Kerma Moyen period (the Kerma Moyen period was from about 2050-1750 BC and was succeeded by the Kerma Classique period which lasted from about 1750-1500 BC).

From Cooper 2017, page 202:

"Given the similarity between the archeological material at Kerma and Sai in Kerma moyen and Kerma classique, it is plausible that the polity of 5Aa.t, first mentioned in the Middle Kingdom, was also dominated by speakers of a Meroitic-like language. This places most of the Nile Valley south of Sai firmly in the sphere of North-Eastern Sudanic languages, with a very uncertain southern boundary. Lower Nubia still belonged to a different linguistic group, with the boundary probably being within the Batn el-Hajar."

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332535260_Toponymic_Strata_in_Ancient_Nubia_until_the_Common_Era

In Cooper 2020 (in the section on Eastern Sudanic languages on pages 5-6), he also states that we can know a Meroitic-related language was likely spoken at Kerma from at least 1800 BC (because that is the period from which there are records/direct evidence, albeit tentative ones - i.e. from toponymic evidence) but does not state that they necessarily did not speak a similar language before that ("by at least 1800 BC" can also mean/is compatible with before 1800 BC). When he states (in that same section of his 2020 piece) that this Meroitic-related language did not originally dominate Lower Nubia (whose previous languages were displaced by Meroitic later), he is not speaking of Kerma/the Kerma region, but rather of the area north of it. Kerma (and its region) was located in Upper (southern) Nubia (and parts of central Nubia). Lower (northern) Nubia was then mostly inhabited by other (non-Kerma) cultures like the C-Group and the Medjay, who Cooper believes were mostly Cushitic-speaking before the migration of Eastern Sudanic/early Meroitic-speakers there from the south (i.e. from the Kerma region).Skllagyook (talk) 02:11, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

@Skllagyook Ok im with you on the fact that other eastern sudanic languages could have possibly have been spoken in kerma prior to meroitic,but thats not the point of my entry (its not to argue against that idea,as you seem think),the point is that cooper finds it tempting in cooper 2020 to link the Arrival of Meroitic with the change in the repertoire of Egyptian place-names for Upper Nubia and then in cooper 2017 to quote him "The emergence of this toponym(Kush) in roughly the same period as the ascendency of Kerma has been linked to the arrival of a new ethno-linguistic group in Dongola Reach and the Third Cataract." I repeat a "New ethnolinguistic group in the dongola reach" meaning the speakers of meroitic or a meroitic like language (proto meroitic) as kush and sai are both rooted in meroitic or a meroitic like language because of their eastern sudanic affinity like meroitic.

The point is that there possibly was an arrival of a new ethno-linguistic group with the introduction of the words kush and sai in egyptian middle kingdom toponyms for upper Nubia as older Egyptian toponyms from the old kingdom refer to the region as Setju Irtjet and possibly jam among other place-names. the point is that Meroitic or a relative of it arrived during the middle kerma period,the earliest attestation being Middle Kingdom Execration Texts. User:Jedorton 03:22, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

What about newer entry that goes like this?

It is possible that Meroitic or a Meroitic like language began to be spoken during the middle kerma period (2050-1750BC) and that this language may represent a new ethno-linguistic group into the dongola reach and the third cataract (where kerma is located),as the words kush and Sai (with eastern sudanic affinity) was not in Egyptian use to describe the region of upper nubia prior to the (late) middle kingdom,wheras the words Setju, Irtjet,and possibly Jam were used to describe upper Nubia,and that Meroitic may have displaced other eastern sudanic and cushitic languages along the nile,and it is alluring to link the arrival of Meroitic (into Upper nubia) with a change in the repertoire of Egyptian place-names for Upper Nubia. Jedorton (talk) (talk • contribs) 04:00, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

@Jedorton: The quote I gave above seems to suggest that Cooper believes a Meroitic-like language particularly may have been the type of Eastern Sudanic language spoken in the Kerma Moyen peroid as well (or perhaps one Meroitic-related language that was replaced by another by/around 1800 BC - with the latter belonging to the aforementioned new ethnic group).

That quote being:

"Given the similarity between the archeological material at Kerma and Sai in Kerma moyen and Kerma classique, it is plausible that the polity of 5Aa.t [Sai], first mentioned in the Middle Kingdom, was also dominated by speakers of a Meroitic-like language."

Cooper's mention of Meroitic "displacing a number of other Eastern Sudanic or Cushitic languages along the Nile" could allude to this (with it displacing Cushitic in northern/Lower Nubia and displacing other similar East Sudanic languages in southern/Upper Nubia/Kerma).

At least that is what it seems to indicate. Some of the detail around this seems unclear.

However, I propose, based on the sources (including the parts you have cited), that the additional text could perhaps read (roughly/somewhat) as follows:

"Cooper (2017, 2020) suggests that an Eastern Sudanic language (perhaps early Meroitic) was spoken at Kerma by at least 1800 BC (the time from which toponymic evidence is available), whose arrival, and that of a new group, around that time may perhaps be indicated by a change in placenames for Upper Nubia used in Egyptian execration texts. However, Cooper also proposes that a similar Eastern Sudanic language may have been already spoken in Upper Nubia, both at Kerma and the Sai polity to its north, at an earlier period (by Kerma Moyen, which began around 2050 BC), while north of Sai, in Lower Nubia, Cushitic languages were spoken and much later replaced by Meroitic. It is posited that early Meroitic spread, displacing Eastern Sudanic and Cushitic languages along the Nile."

Also, please WP:INDENT. Thank you. Skllagyook (talk) 04:16, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

@Skllagyook But i don't see whats the difference from my own rewritten entry (except yours state "new group" where as mine states new ethno-linguistic group like coopers states),I can understand the change from 1800bc to the Moyen/middle kerma period. •Jedorton (talk) 06:49, 19 January 2021 (UTC)]] contribs) 06:40, 17 January 2021 (UTC)<

@Jedorton: That's fine. I don't see a problem with changing "new group" to "new ethno-linguistic group", especially if it is closer to the source (except perhaps concision/brevity). I can make the change and add the new section. Thus it seems we are in agreement/have reached consensus. Skllagyook (talk) 07:19, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

@Skllagyook: Yes i agree with you,and im fine with your edit,but just one more question,are you implying that cooper is implying an earlier

eastern Sudanic language was spoken prior to the coming of Meroitic (like languages)? by that i mean the statement "However, Cooper also proposes that a similar Eastern Sudanic language may have been already spoken in Upper Nubia, both at Kerma and the Sai polity to its north, at an earlier period (by Kerma Moyen, which began around 2050 BC)," i must admit i havn't read cooper 2020 fully,But other then that im fine with your wording,it's just that i believe pre moyen/middle kerma period (such as early kerma) languages are completely unknown Though their are some old kindom Egyptian toponyms that plausibly refer to the second-third cataract region of which include Sai,toponyms like Bat HzT and Sn(s)h (or alternatively may refer to places in the eastern desert) (cooper 2017 p 201) these place-names seem to have an indigenous sudanese origin that could tell us more about the language(s) of the sai region and possibly kerma,But cooper does not get into the phonology or language affinity of these words,anyways thanks for the clarification.[[Jedorton (talk) 08:05, 17 January 2021 (UTC)]]

@Jedorton: Yes. It seems that he is saying some kind of Eastern Sudanic language was likely spoken at Kerma (and Sai) before then, by the Kerma Moyen period - whether it, or something similar, was also spoken there before Kerma Moyen, or how early, he does not say); whether that Eastern Sudanic language was also Meroitic-like or belonged to some other East Sudanic branch is unknown also/not mentioned.Skllagyook (talk) 08:30, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 9 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Rough consensus to restore Kerma culture (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 20:29, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

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Kerma kingdom → Kingdom of Kerma – Requested move, misuse of WP:PROD on the redirect. More consistent with English grammar than the current title. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 02:35, 9 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 20:28, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support Alexanderkowal (talk) 07:22, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose and restore "Kerma culture", the long-standing page title before the undiscussed bold move to "Kerma kingdom" on 01 June 24.

(Update (11 June 2024): Alternatively Kerma kingdom → Kerma and Kerma → Kerma (city), as discussed below.)

First, per WP:COMMONNAME, cf. the following tabulation of search results:

	Google Scholar		JSTOR
	All results	In title
Kerma culture	690	20	88
Kingdom of Kerma	326	7	24
Kerma kingdom	185	2	7
Kerma civilization	101	2	8
Kerma civilisation	82	3	3

Also, "Kerma culture" (or "Kerma civilization", my personal favorite inspite of WP:COMMONNAME since "culture" is quite indistinct) covers the topic in full, while "Kingdom of Kerma" reduces the topic to the final culminating period of the Kerma culture.

Actually, the best page title would be plain "Kerma" (cf. Sumer, Elam), but currently, the existing article Kerma focusses on the main archeological site. –Austronesier (talk) 14:50, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Maybe 'Kerma', and the other page can be moved to 'Kerma (archaeological site)' Alexanderkowal (talk) 15:03, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

@Alexanderkowal: Good idea, I'd support such a proposal. –Austronesier (talk) 15:17, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I’ll move Kerma to Kerma (archaeological site) however I’m not sure how to move Kerma kingdom to Kerma Alexanderkowal (talk) 16:23, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Actually the scope of the article is on the city of Kerma, how about 'Kerma (city)'? Alexanderkowal (talk) 16:44, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

My understanding is that Kerma is the modern name of a village after which the ancient kingdom is named. The ancient kingdom is called Kush in Egyptian texts, just like the later kingdom. The name of the city of 'Kerma' is unknown, but was Pnubs after the fall of 'Kerma'. So, Kerma isn't quite like Sumer or Elam. Srnec (talk) 01:57, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

The nomenclature of ancient civilizations can go the oddest ways, from historical endonyms and exonyms, misnomers due to initial misidentification (Hittites) or over-generalization (Maya), romantic phantasies (Minoan), anachronistic back-projection of historical toponyms (BMAC), to modern toponyms (Tiwanaku). In any case, it really depends of general usage. If "Kerma" alone generally refers to the site only (I haven't tried a full survey yet), then "Kerma culture" is the only good title to cover the entire Upper Nubian civilization before Egyptian conquest. –Austronesier (talk) 11:06, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

For older states, power generally radiated from a central city, so the name of a city often becomes synonymous with the polity. Going by google scholar, Kerma seems to most often refer to the site, but also refers to the civilisation Alexanderkowal (talk) 12:11, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

• Move Kerma kingdom to Kerma, move current Kerma to Kerma (city) per above. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:31, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

  Support Alexanderkowal (talk) 14:45, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

  I oppose any move of Kerma without a proper RM listed there. Srnec (talk) 01:56, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support Kerma culture per Austronesier's stats and as status quo ante. "Kerma culture" is also broader than any kingdom title, since the kingdom developed out of the culture. Srnec (talk) 01:56, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

  Surely once it’s a kingdom it stops being a culture, culture is used to denote pre-kingdom societies Alexanderkowal (talk) 09:11, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

  Actually, it doesn't. The Kerma civilization left no written records of their own, so archaeological evidence is crucial for our knowledge about the Kerma culture even at its apex. For the broad usage of the term "Kerma culture" (that doesn't stop with the emergence of a highly centralized form of political organization), cf. "Archaeology of the Kerma Culture"[1] (WP Library link[2]) in the Oxford Research Encyclopedia of African History. –Austronesier (talk) 10:45, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

  [3] (chapter 8, pg 143) calls the culture preceding the kingdom as "pre-Kerma culture" which was from 3500-2500 BC, and the kingdom as the "Kerma civilisation" Alexanderkowal (talk) 12:13, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, that's "pre-Kerma culture". The Kerma culture is commonly divided into the Pre-Kerma, Early Kerma, Classic Kerma and Recent Kerma periods. Early Kerma and Classic Kerma correspond to the time when both the archaeological record and Egyptian sources show that Kerma was a centralized, independent state. –Austronesier (talk) 17:18, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

  Ah okay thanks Alexanderkowal (talk) 18:18, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

  The scope of this article seems to only by from 2500 BC, ie the kingdom, I think if this does revert to Kerma culture there has to be a section on the pre-Kerma period Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:47, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

  We already mention pre-Kerma in the article, although just in a small bit. And it is entirely unproblematic in having an article entitled "Kerma culture" that focusses on the Early, Middle and Classic Kerma periods (2500-1500 BCE), when we follow best sources: "Kerma was a Bronze Age culture (c. 2500–1500 BCE) located in what is today Sudan and southern Egypt" (opening summary of Schrader & Smith, "Archaeology of the Kerma Culture", see link above; nevertheless, Schrader & Smith devote 2 out of 39 pages to pre-Kerma). –Austronesier (talk) 09:53, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose and restore "Kerma culture" as per Austronesier's comment. :FuzzyMagma (talk) 20:54, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Consensus that this article should not remain at the current title; relist to try to get a consensus for which title should be used, although in the absense of consensus Kerma culture should be as the status quo. This discussion will not be able to produce a consensus that moves Kerma, as that article has not been notified; I encourage a seperate RM be opened there. BilledMammal (talk) 20:28, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

• Comment reposting this here

  • [4]: Kerma (2011-2012)
  • [5]:Kerma: The Rise of an African Civilization (1976)
  • [6]: The Oxford Handbook of Ancient Nubia: C8 The pre-Kerma culture and the beginning of the Kerma kingdom
  • [7]: Settlement and cemeteries of the Mesolithic and Early Neolithic at el-Barga (Kerma region)
  • [8]: ON THE PERIPHERY OF KERMA - THE HANDESSI HORIZON IN WADI HARIQ, NORTHWESTERN SUDAN
  • [9]: Weapons, Ideology and Identity at Kerma (Upper Nubia, 2500–1500 bc)
  • [10]: The Oxford Handbook of Ancient Nubia: C11 The cities of Kerma and Pnubs-Dokki Gel
  • [11]: SHEEPSKIN FROM ANCIENT KERMA, NORTHERN SUDAN
  • [12]: Marginal Communities and Cooperative Strategies in the Kerma Pastoral State
  • [13]: Behavioral reconstruction of the Kerma era Nubians
  • [14]: Skin, hair and cloth remains from the ancient kerma civilization of Northern Sudan

• IMO the title "kerma kingdom" should be restored to the "Kerma culture" because in literary and academic papers it's known as the Kerma culture and the kerma kingdom emerged out of the Kerma culture Jedorton (talk) 23:46, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.