Talk:Kalaripayattu

Edgar Thurston-quote

Part I

@Avf12e I have noted that recently you added that kalari is based on hinduism into the lead without a proof , now you are adding something related to urumi into the history section (to prove your point again) when the source you provided only mentions about a community/caste and says nothing that it is related to kalari or it is for kalari, it is you assumption ,it is based on the dressing style. Kindly discuss here before making such changes as the it is a very old artform which have influenced so many cultures . Bilgiljilll (talk) 03:14, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Avf12e, you re-inserted diff the Edgar Thurston-quote with the explanation

'Urumi' weapon is unique to kalari, and it's construction requires fine knowledge metallurgy. No where else we can find this flexible sword worn around waist and is a character of this period. Something like samurai sword

despite my explanation diff

WP:UNDUE; no mention of Kalaripayattu; and Raj-era source, which are usually rejected at Wikipedia

Undue is cooroborated by Bilgiljilll; what does this info have to with kalari? And it's a Raj-era source from 1909; Rah-era sources are generally not considered WP:RS. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:34, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

 Courtesy link: WP:RAJ

Though I feel it is not fair to completely reject all the raj era sources as many of them which existed before and after are also being rejected unless it is cited in a scholarly article (Peer reviewed) but this is what Wikipedia follows here Avf12e. Jeraxmoira (talk) 06:52, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

The quote is used in this all India magazine , an article on kalripayattu[1].

The reason people are using this quote as a reference is because the weopon 'Urumi' is uniquely to Kalari and people can't simple use it like a knife or sword.

This was a culture during medieval period in kerala that Kalari warriors used to tie this flexible sword around their waist and unfasten the sword when an enemy shows up. This is not continued after the medieval period.

This is something unique to kalari and no where in the world you can see this weapon and this mode of attacking style. Though thurson has not mentioned explicitly the word kalari, but the 'flexible sword' Urumi and it's attacking style is evident and belongs to kalaripayattu, that's why people has used his reference in article like these.

1. We cannot completely reject this quote citing this is raj era source

2. The relation with the Kalaripayattu is evident and been used by authors in other kalaripayattu articles like these Afv12e (talk) 20:45, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

As I have mentioned previously, only Peer reviewed scholarly articles will be considered as reliable sources on this topic. Not magazines. You can try searching on Google Scholar, JSTOR or some other similar platform! Cheers. Jeraxmoira (talk) 20:55, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you!

I will search for it. My concern is that Peer reviewed articles are very minimal related in kalaripayattu in total, not much peer reviewed scholarly articles are available on kalarippayattu topic. Afv12e (talk) 21:16, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Also the 'rejection of Raj Era sources' in Wikipedia is primarily concerned with Castes and communities articles in India[2][3].

Please enlighten me if I'm wrong. Afv12e (talk) 21:46, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Raj Era source are confined to castes and communities in wikipedia.

We are just here talking about a weapon, and it's attacking style. If possible, we can omit the name of the community name at the start.

It won't harm in using the quote of an attacking style of a kalari weapon. Afv12e (talk) 21:59, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

You cannot omit part of a source as you like. See WP:FRUIT. If you can frame the sentence as Sitush did in the last line of the discussion you linked, it may be fine. Again, that can also be challenged by other editors. Jeraxmoira (talk) 04:33, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Part II

yes, peer reviewed scholarly articles on kalaripayattu does mention this [4]. Restored back. Afv12e (talk) 10:29, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi Afv12e, Firstly, how did you come across the article that you cited above? Why does the article have 17-November-2023 as the published date? Are you the author Manohara Krishnan that is mentioned in the article?

W.r.t the restore that you did, you did not cite the source that you mentioned here, so I am reverting it again. Do not proceed to restore without consensus, Thanks. Jeraxmoira (talk) 10:48, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I was searching for the articles related to this for the past days. No I'm not the aithor.

I have cited in the edit the source I mentioned here. You can recheck. Afv12e (talk) 11:01, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

My bad, yes you have cited it. But then again, there is no way you found that article by searching as it not indexed in google or anywhere yet. [5] Jeraxmoira (talk) 11:17, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I was searching on journals pages with keyword Kalari thurson urumi , was extensively searchtfor these past days in major journal pages and going through it. Afv12e (talk) 11:20, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

As I said, this looks orchestrated. Even when you search for the word 'Kalari', only that particular article pops up [6]. I would suggest you to find some other reliable sources and then restore the content. Otherwise, take this to WP:3O or WP:DRN Jeraxmoira (talk) 11:31, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I have gone to the site and searched for the keyword 'kalari' and this article pops in because this is published yesterday.

I think under this one there in only one article.

I have been searching for scholary sites to find peer reviewed papers for the source.

This is a disgrace that you are now telling just because the paper is published yesterday, it is fabricated ! Afv12e (talk) 15:43, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

This is a peer reviewed scholary article on Kalaripayattu and other source ( a news source) also took this source on usage of Urumi weapon.

As from our discussion above these were the conditions to add it back.

I think this well sufficient to add that back to the article. Afv12e (talk) 15:47, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Your quote can be summarized to "Weapons used in Kalari include the Urumi, a flexible, whip-like sword made of thin pliable steel." Your "peer reviewed source," Manohara Krishnan (2023), Kalarippayattu: The Ancient Martial Art of Kerala and its Arsenal, International Journal of Social Science and Humanities Research, Vol. 11, Issue 4, October 2023 - December 2023, looks odd; see here and here for a warning signal. Anyway, your source is superficial; wonder what search-string for ChatGPT would give such an article... Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 20:12, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

To note, there is something here and here with a very similar name, Kalarippayattu: The Ancient Martial Art of Kerala and this article Afv12e cited has "... and its Arsenal" added to it. Looks like it was exclusively created for restoring content related to Urumi. The abstract of that article has 50-65% AI generated content warnings when run on multiple AI generated content detectors. Jeraxmoira (talk) 21:13, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

3O

Can whoever made the WP:3O request please very briefly summarize which source exactly is contested to support which article content and why it is contested? Sandstein 10:19, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

WP:3O request was made by Afv12e [7]. Source in question - [8]. Contested because it was published a week after this article was getting attention. Journal is published in an unreliable/ unmoderated platform.

There is also a similar journal [9] which does not have the "and its Arsenal" added to it on the title. The source in question also flags for AI generated content warnings. Jeraxmoira (talk) 10:32, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

OK, and which article content exactly is to be sourced to this publication? Sandstein 19:52, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Afv12e tried to add [10]. Jeraxmoira (talk) 15:19, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Vadakkan Pattukal

Again in the subsection "Colonial Period ' from history the entire body of the article Vadakkan pattukal seems to be copied here , for eg :

This late medieval "golden age" of Kalaripayattu is preserved in the Vadakkan Pattukkal (17th-18th century), a collection of ballads about warrior heroes and heroines from earlier periods in Kerala, such as Aromal Chekavar (16th century), Unniyarcha (16th century), and Thacholi Othenan, who were celebrated for their martial prowess, chivalry and idealism. The heroes and heroines belong mainly to two matrilinear families, one of Tiyya origin and another Nair. In the Vadakkan Pattukal, it is stated that the cardinal principle of Kalaripayattu was that knowledge of the art be used to further worthy causes, and not for the advancement of one's own selfish interests.[citation needed].

The problem is why this vadakkan pattukal which is an oral based legend without a proper timeline(unstable , stated in the article) thrown here mutliple times and the legendary characters when it is linked to the main page ? This comes in the colonial period and pre colinial period currently . @Kalariwarrior @Joshua Jonathan I would like to consider your opinion in this , and protect this page for indefinite time if possible , anyway another acc is going to arrive soon and add this religion or caste for sure , considering the history of the edits. Bilgiljilll (talk) 09:07, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Both are wrong , vadakkan pattukal is legend not clear history, it suits in the legend section not in the colonial or pre colonial era . It is an oral culture , there is no proof for the existence very similar to parashuram theory as u pointed out the time line is a little bit varying , just it is a bit more popularised . It do not belong to history colonial and precolonial but in the legend section . Can u add the legend of ayyapan and sabarimala from South Kerala ? Briefly into the legend section ?? It is mentioned in the page Wannabesomething123 (talk) 09:57, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Well , its complex @Kalariwarrior , what do you think ? Also this can be somehow true, since in the vadakkan pattukal page it is mentioned that 'The oldest compositions do not date earlier than 16th century but their idiom and vocabulary seem older.[need quotation to verify][need quotation to verify] However, like any other oral cultural forms that are sung by communities even today, these songs show great flexibility and a repetitive pattern in their lexicon that is typical of the simplicity of folksongs in general.' So this is a folksong , so it need to be along with parashuram thing ? Bilgiljilll (talk) 11:08, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

vadakkan pattukal is very different from saying that Barbosa saw or recorded , etc because it is documented at a particular time for eg 'Barbosa recorded Hindus start training from 7th age ', however vadakkannpattukal is legend based on oral culture ,(means song sung by certain people and stories related to that) by that logic parashuram thing is also a history. Wannabesomething123 (talk) 10:02, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

also bilgil, do check the main article vadakkan pattukal somthing like that is mentioned regarding the timeline it's not fixed these are legendary characters just like parashuram . And it is not history , it's very different from comparison with documented things like Barbosa saw etc in a particular period. Wannabesomething123 (talk) 10:09, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Well , it can be moved into the legend section , but mentioning into certain caste or community is not needed, its already mentioned in the article just link it to that . Just like what Kalariwarrior , joshua said it need to be neautralised and link to that page . Bilgiljilll (talk) 11:20, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

somehow , makes a point Bilgiljilll (talk) 11:22, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Also In the section barbosa noted , he only mentioned about Nair's not about thiyyas or exhavas , it is wrong to add in that particular paragraph , the sreedharans quote is correct though. Wannabesomething123 (talk) 10:14, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

@Bilgiljill: please pay attention to my edit-summaries. The Vadakkan Pattuka was mentioned two times; I merged these two pieces of info, anx mo ex it to the Colonial period, because it was composed in that time. The writing of the VP coincides with the decline of Kalari; no coincidence, I suspect.

The sentence

In the Vadakkan Pattukal, it is stated that the cardinal principle of Kalaripayattu was that knowledge of the art be used to further worthy causes, and not for the advancement of one's own selfish interests.

cannot be sourced to Menon (2011); nevertheless, you removed the "source needed"-tag, and reinserted Menon (2011), with a typo in the pagenumbers; double fault.

I'm moving thd VP back to theColonial period-section; that's where it belongs, given thd dating of it's composition. Please pay attention when you're editing. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:52, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Sure Bilgiljilll (talk) 14:18, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Duarte Barbosa - Nair's physical training

Nothing to do

Duarte Barbosa has written on Nair's physical training like dancing ,attaining flexibility which other castes in India do for military training. He has not talked about kalaripayattu[11]. Afv12e (talk) 01:58, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

He has written nair's physical training including learning dance and making body flexible, the common military exercises practiced in all ancient Indian kingdoms to become a bowmen or swordsmen. This has nothing to do with kalaripayattu:

These nairs, besides being all of noble descent, have to be armed as knights by the hand of the king, or lord with whom they live, and until they have been so equipped they cannot bear arms nor call themselves nairs, but they enjoy the freedom and exemption and advantages of the nairs in many things. In general when these nairs are seven years of age they are immediately sent to school to learn all manner of feats of agility and gymnastics for the use of their weapons. First they learn to dance, and then to tumble, and for that purpose they render supple all their limbs from their childhood, so that they can bend them in any direction. And after they have exercised in this, they teach them to manage the weapons which suit each one most. That is to say bows, clubs, or lances; and most of them are taught to use the sword and buckler, which is of more common use among them..

So, bows, clubs, lances, swords and bucklers have nothing to do with Kalari? Anyway, this is quoted by Menon (2011):

Kalari for getting trained in gymnastics and the use of arms . This training was known as Kalaripayattu . Describing the military training of the Nairs in the Kalari , Duarte Barbosa , the Portuguese writer of the 16th century

Menon is a serious source. Zarrilli, another serious author, also refers to Barbosa here:

At the start of the sixteenth century, Duarte Barbosa, one of the earliest Portugese to arrive in Kerala, a state in southwest India, provides a description of Kalarippayatt

Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:00, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Oh you find use of bows and clubs in Kerala relates to kalari ?

bows, clubs, lances, swords and bucklers are found every where in India, and is not unique to kalari. How can someone training bow and arrow relate to kalari ? This is usual military practice.

Why do you want to quote A. Sreedhara Menon or any other writers when the original Duarte Barbosa work does not mention kalaripayattu, which is infront of your eyes  ?

WP:RSOPINION WP:INTEXT does not meet this.

Restore only when a concise is reached Afv12e (talk) 06:24, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Just adding my opinion here . From what i have seen the roles and cultures of these sub ethnicities or religion are kind of disputed and are diverse, from the main page nair what i see is that it is a collection of castes or a broad division which used to have different order in the feaudal era or the heairarchial based time of india. Nair obviously is a broad division to talk about kalarippayattu. It is already clear from the source that all communities have a history of kalarippayattu , unfortunately the kalarippayattu tradition of all communities and religion in india ,kerala and other parts , are not really detailed in these texts or such works are not done. Thus my humble opinion is it will be good if the kind of stressing to religion or subethnicity of this page is neautralised, because on a perspective of kalari as an artform these are much irrelevant . Just my opinion. Thank you Bilgiljilll (talk) 09:15, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

I have made this according to WP:RSOPINION ::Wikipedia:Reliable_sources_and_undue_weight :

According to A. Sreedhara Menon's interpretation, Barbosa also discusses the Nairs' physical training in gymnastics and weapons, which is related to their Kalari training. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Afv12e (talk • contribs)

I refer to them because they are WP:RS. Basic Wiki-policy. Their publications are not opinion-pieces, but scholarly works. Attribution is fine, but not necessary; usually we do this when there are divergent opinions (...) on a subject. In this case, I'll bet you'll have a hard time to find a source which says that the Barbosa-quote is not about kalari. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:17, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

@Bilgiljilll: Barbosa, nor Menon or Zarrilli, state that kalari is or was confined to the Nairs, do they? Nor does the intro to this quote do so; it just gives an historical description of kalari, in this case by Nairs. I'm sorry, I'm European; the subtleties of the Indian caste-system are lost on me (not completely; my grandparents were working-class, and my father, PhD in chemistry, learned how to milk cows; I'm still proud of this working-class background); I just read a description of kalari here. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:26, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

I kind of agree , i just said my opinion incase any future arguments happens.Actually from what i have read and understood The caste system that existed in india is not entirely based on class or work alone especially in parts of southern india where other religions prevailed before hinduism.It can be only treated as sub ethnicities of the region with their own culture and tradition.Another issue is these segregations kind of still exists in majority of the parts, it still kind of form their cultural identity, even though they have moved on .Thats why there is always an edit war on these indian caste related pages or wherever the religion or community is mentioned. Bilgiljilll (talk) 09:57, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

The quote is giving undue waitage to a particular caste , in the middle of the article, looking like they are the only one caste training Kalaripayattu.

also if this article is of nair , it’s fine to keep the quote, but from the quote itself there is no much information of kalari training but simply highlight or give promotion to a caste. Afv12e (talk) 11:40, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

@Afv12e Hey i just checked that old quote which we both reverted , the quote says something like this -"blockquote|The Tiyans were further allowed to wear gold jewels on the neck, to don silken cloths, to fasten a sword round the waist, and to carry a sword...." this is clearly regarding the dressing style like gold jewels on neck etc also i fail to find words like 'urumi unique to kalari' or anywhere it is related to kalari or even a word called kalari in the particular quote or even in the section', thats why it got reverted on that day . These kind of specifications like gold ring etc can be seen in almost all tribes from the book edgar tugston and lk iyers book. However regarding your other points such as undue waitage , i kind of partially agree also the second quote you provided from the book related to dutch malabar or cochin , that makes some sense related to kalari however the chego part and the region part need to be mentioned specifically. This need to be discussed with kalariwarrior and joshua. Also kindly dont add it desperately like you did in this article in the recent days. Bilgiljilll (talk) 16:51, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

You have removed ‘lower caste’ ‘untouchable’ thiyya caste references of their use of Urumi weapon (unique to kalari) usage which was under the ‘upper caste’ Nairs kalari training quote.

That was giving a sense that kalari was universal in among castes. Afv12e (talk) 11:45, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Now that's a relevant observation. I'll check it. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 12:11, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

But already sort of included in the article: "This was especially common amongst martial sects of various communities in Kerala, such as the Nairs and Thiyyas." S, actually, the statement "Unlike other parts of India, warriors in Kerala belonged to all castes and religions, and were from both sexes." should be further scrutinized. I can't access Menon (2011), but zarrilli (1992) says:

From approximately the 11th/12th century A.D. on, when this particular martial system crystalized into somthing akin to what is still seen today, it was practiced by specific sub-groups of Nairs of Kerala, as well as one sub-caste of (Yatra) brahmans, Christians, Muslims, and one specific sub-group of Illavas (also known as Tiyyas).

Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 12:20, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Regarding the sword thing which got removed, it said they carry the weapon during their marriage function, lot of tribes in india do that actually . There is no mentioning of their training ot anthing related to kalari in that , however the second reference u gave that "chego taught kalari to nairos' from dutch malabar or kochin , this can be considered as it is clearly related to the artform if anything related to caste is considered. Bilgiljilll (talk) 16:02, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Chekavar

Can you add these quotes under nair kalari training quote to give better views that ‘lower caste’ ‘Untouchables’ also practiced Kalaripayattu extensively. I’m afraid if I add maybe if it is disruptive. Chekavar are lower caste and untouchable according to Kerala caste system.
(Even on a broader way , once practiced Buddhism, later opposed ‘Brahmins’ and failed to do so and made into lower caste untouchables.)
They were extensively practicing Kalaripayattu,and may even attribute to origin of kalari to these groups rather than North Indian Brahmins to Kerala

Jacob Canter Visscher's Letters from Malabar says: 'They may be justly entitled soldiers, as by virtue of their descent they must always bear arms. In spite of the fact that chekavars were also practitioners of payatt and had a unavoidable presence in the militia of the ruler, they were allowed in the military services.'

Hendrik van Rheede, governor of Dutch Malabar between 1669 and 1676, wrote about Chekavar in Hortus Malabaricus: "[Chekavas] are bound to war and arms. The Chekavars usually serve to teach nayros (nair) in the fencing in kalari school".

References

This quote under nair kalari training quote will give a broader historical view and will balance the section. Afv12e (talk) 12:46, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Those quotes come from Chekavar, I guess? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:00, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes Afv12e (talk) 13:01, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Thiyyas, therefor. I'll take a closer look. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:03, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Well i have been reading these pages related to nair, ezhava/thiyya . The fact is that malabar was a term used to denote the entire kerala , before british forming the malabar district in northern kerala . Similarly Dutch Malabar means central kerala or kochin where the thiyya variations of ezhava tribe are not present .Thus its better to mention chekavar it is a title used by the entire subgroup . Mentioned in the main page ezhava under the section "variation". Chegos or chekavar do not entirely translates to any subdivision of izhava tribe . I was reading the book the anthropology of cochin state (dutch malabar) , and the entire thiyya/ezhava of central kerala are mentioned as chegos or chekavars in that ,a short description of that is provided in the main page ezhava too. Bilgiljilll (talk) 15:15, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

the point is that the first point reference, avf provided belong to british malabar or north kerala where they are called as thiyya or sometimes ezhava , and the second reference of dutch malabar is from central kerala where the thiyya variation is not present this can create disambiguation. So if adding this its better to mention the present or common accepted name in bracket inorder to avoid the confusion and to mention the correct words. For eg a sentence like thiyyas from dutch Malabar (kochi) will be wrong because even though they are a subgroup of the ezhava tribe from the north side, as per wikipedia and from the sources i have seen the word thiyya is not used to refer central kerala people of this tribe. Thus if adding the word 'chegos' as per what is written in the source need to be mentioned correctly. Bilgiljilll (talk) 15:35, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Malabar District(Northern kerala) , Dutch Malabar(central kerala) , Malabar Coast (entire kerala) , Malabar . Providing the links for better understading. Bilgiljilll (talk) 15:40, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Dutch Malabar is also called cochin.its defenitely different from the british malabar where these variation is called thiyyas so the word chego as per the governor used suits the best and also its better to give cochin in bracket . Bilgiljilll (talk) 15:44, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Well this makes some sense , but the disambiguation related to the region need to be cleared as i discussed. But i disagree with using words like lower , higher , inferior , superior etc. Just because they were marked so doesnt mean that always they are, also this is not related to the heirarchy at all. Bilgiljilll (talk) 15:53, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Just keep ’chekavar’ , let’s not make things complicated at the very first stage. We can discuss the geographical differences later once this is added.

This addition would balance the article and give a broader picture of kalari practice and give a sense of origin as well. Complicating on this would again make time taking. @Bilgiljilll Afv12e (talk) 16:51, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

I've added the quotes. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 17:40, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Some observations

Antiquity

Zarrilli (1994), ACTUALIZING POWER(S) AND CRAFTING A SELF IN KALARIPPAYATTU :

As anyone familiar with either the Mahabharata or India's second great epic, the Ramayana, knows, martial techniques have existed on the South Asian subcontinent since antiquity.

Classical Antiquity = ca. 500 BCE-500 CE. Zarrilli also writes that Dhanurveda was a source of kalari-techniques. In that case, we can go back much further in time, to the Indo-Aryans and the Sintashta culture, 3rd millennium BCE, warrior-tribes undoubtly highly skilled at combat techniques. Not something to include, but worth to give a thought. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:39, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

"The body becomes all eyes"

Another intriguing comment by Zarrilli:

In Kerala, there is a folk expression which summarizes the martial practitioner's ideal state of psychophysiologicaVpneumatic accomplishment explored here--a state in which the "body becomes all eyes" (meyyu kannakuka). One reading of the "body as all eyes" is as the yogic/Ayurvedic bodymind, which intuitively responds to the sensory environment and which is healthful and fluid in its congruency. It is the animal body in which there is unmediated, uncensored, immediate respondence to stimuli. Like Brahma, the "thousand eyed," the practitioner who is accomplished can "see" everywhere around him, intuitively sensing danger in the environment and responding immediately.

Compare the Zen-koan from the Blue Cliff Record case 89, "Hands and Eyes All Over" (or "The Hands and Eyes of the Bodhisattva of Great Compassion"); idem Book of Serenity Case 54; Dogen's Mana Shobogenzo ("Dogen's 300 koans") Case 105, also in Dogen's Kana Shobogenzo, chapters Daishugyo and Kannon:

Ungan asked Dogo, “What does the bodhisattva of great compassion use so many hands and eyes for?”

Dogo said, “Like someone reaching back for a pillow in the middle of the night.”
Ungan said, “I understand.”
Dogo said, “How do you understand?”
Ungan said, “All over the body are hands and eyes.”
Dogo said, “You’ve said quite a bit, but you’ve only expressed eighty percent.”
Ungan said, “What about you?”

Dogo said, “Throughout the body are hands and eyes.”

Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 12:01, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Kalaripayattu - Age

The word 'Kalari' (களரி) for combat ground is found Akam 54th verse in Sangam verses, where the poem is describing a combat like duals , where warriors come and fight:

முது மரத்த முரண் களரி(This is the word 'Kalari),

வரி மணல் அகன் திட்டை, 60

இருங்கிளை இனன் ஒக்கல்

கருந்தொழில் கலி மாக்கள்,

கடல் இறவின் சூடு தின்றும்,

வயல் ஆமைப் புழுக்கு உண்டும்,

வறள் அடும்பின் மலர் மலைந்தும், 65

புனல் ஆம்பல் பூச் சூடியும்,

நீல் நிற விசும்பின் வலன் ஏர்பு திரிதரும்,

நாள்மீன் விராய கோள்மீன் போல,

மலர்தலை மன்றத்துப் பலருடன் குழீஇக்,

கையினும் கலத்தினும் மெய்யுறத் தீண்டிப், 70

பெருஞ்சினத்தான் புறக்கொடாஅது,

இருஞ்செருவின் இகல் மொய்ம்பினோர்,

கல் எறியும் கவண் வெரீஇப்

புள் இரியும் புகர்ப் போந்தை; (59-74)

Martial Art Field

Shifting sands have spread in wide

striped patterns and old trees

provide shade in an arena where

strong men show off their strengths.

They gather with their many relatives

and hordes of people from their clan.

Warriors eat roasted shrimp and boiled

field tortoises. They wear adumpu flowers

that grow in dry sand, along with white

waterlilies that bloom in ponds.

The crowds milling around in the vast

common grounds are like stars that

rise up with strength and mingle with

planets in the blue sky. Men with great

body strength, filled with rage, hit body

against body and fight with hands and

weapons without backing off.

Fearing the stones from the slingshots of

strong men, birds flee, abandoning the

palmyra trees with spots.

Notes: வலன் (67) – பொ. வே. சோமசுந்தரனார் உரை, நெடுநல்வாடை (1) – வலப் பக்கம், வலன் ஏர்பு – அகநானூறு 43, 84, 188, 278, 298, 328, நற்றிணை 37, 264, 328, குறுந்தொகை 237, ஐங்குறுநூறு 469, பதிற்றுப்பத்து 24, 31, நெடுநல்வாடை 1, பட்டினப்பாலை 67, முல்லைப்பாட்டு 4, திருமுருகாற்றுப்படை 1, மதுரைக்காஞ்சி 5 – வல மாதிரத்தான் வளி கொட்ப. கல் எறியும் கவண் வெரீஇ (73) – பொ. வே. சோமசுந்தரனார் உரை – பனை மரத்து உச்சியில் இலக்கு வைத்து எறிதலின் ஆண்டு வாழும் பறவைகள் ஓடின என்க. இங்கனம் இலக்குக் கொண்டு கல்லால் எறிதல் உண்மையால் ஆண்டு நிற்கும் பனைகள் கல்லேற்றின் வடுவுடையன என்பார், புகார்ப் போந்தை என்றார். Meanings: முது மரத்த – with old trees, முரண் களரி – arena where brave men show off their strength, வரி மணல் – sand ripples, stripes of sand, அகன் திட்டை- wide mounds, இருங்கிளை – big group of relatives, இனன் ஒக்கல் – clan people, related people (இனன் – இனம் என்பதன் போலி), கருந்தொழில் – war business, harsh business, கலி மாக்கள் – arrogant warriors, proud warriors, கடல் இறவின் – ocean shrimp’s, சூடு தின்றும் – roasted the flesh and ate, வயல் ஆமை – field tortoises, புழுக்கு உண்டும் – boiled and ate, வறள் அடும்பின் – adumpu flowers in dry sand, Ipomoea pes caprae, மலர் மலைந்தும் – adorned with flowers, புனல் ஆம்பல் – white water lilies growing in water, பூச்சூடியும் – wearing flowers, நீல் நிற விசும்பின் – in the blue sky (நீல் – கடைக்குறை, poetical license which consists in the shortening of a word by elision of one or more letters in the end), வலன் ஏர்பு – climb on the right side, climb with strength, திரிதரும் – roaming, நாள்மீன் விராய – with the stars, with the sun, கோள்மீன் போல – like the planets, மலர்தலை மன்றத்து – in the vast common grounds, பலருடன் குழீஇ – joining together with many others (குழீஇ – அளபெடை), கையினும் – with their hands, கலத்தினும் – with their weapons, மெய் உறத் தீண்டி – hitting body against body, பெருஞ்சினத்தால் – with great anger, புறக்கொடாஅது – not showing their backs and leaving (அளபெடை), இருஞ்செருவின் – in huge battles, இகல் – enmity, மொய்ம்பினோர் – men with strong bodies, கல் எறியும் கவண் வெரீஇ – fearing the stones shot by slingshots (வெரீஇ – அளபெடை, வெருவி என்ற வினையெச்சம் திரிந்து அளபெடுத்தது), புள் – birds, இரியும் – move away, flee, புகர்ப் போந்தை – palmyra palms with spots

Considering

Most of the Akananuru was likely composed sometime between the 2nd and 5th century CE

Also Word Kalari used here with the scenario of martial arts fighting between two, The martial arts should be old as such and in the lead it says Kalari originated in 1200 ce, which much recent. We have the quote of Duarte Barossa died at 1521 talking on Kalari training and can't image that kalari developed just 300 years back of that.

Currently in Malayalam word 'Kalari' is used for both Kalaripayattu martial arts and for the place where kalaripayattu martial arts being taught. So Akam verse which is of 300ce - 600 ce should be talking about either of the two, in conjunction the above dual (Angam mentioned in the article) scene.

Just a google results, and can be seen in many articles:

The word kalari appears in the Puram (verses 225, 237, 245, 356) and Akam (verses 34, 231, 293) to describe both a battlefield and combat arena. The word kalari tatt denoted a martial feat, while kalari kozhai meant a coward in war

So the age of Kalaripayattu in the lead should consider to be changed from 1200 ce to maybe Sangam era of akam to 300ce - 500ce

Afv12e (talk) 04:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

See WP:OR and WP:DONTGETIT. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:15, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

References