Talk:Jonny Kim

new stubby sections

On 5 October 2021 at 13:27 UTC, JesseRafe (talk · contribs) took a single sentence from the "Personal life" section to form a second section of the same topic and purpose. They said, section content standardization and split […] personal life here, in own section, after career. They did not specify what SOP to which they were standardizing. Such a short stubby section is in contravention of MOS:BODY, which says "Very short sections and subsections clutter an article with headings and inhibit the flow of the prose. Short paragraphs and single sentences generally do not warrant their own subheading." I cited that manual of style when I replaced the original section. Furthermore, MOS:CHRONOLOGICAL says "In general, present a biography in chronological order, from birth to death, except where there is good reason to do otherwise."

Instead of following the bold, revert, discuss cycle, JesseRafe instead simply repeated their edits saying, this type of content is almost always ELE in BLPs, should be standardized for readers […] BLPs regularly have short sections for biographical details that don't fit into their career, e.g. married/kids/death, are often single sentence paragraphs and ergo sections if that's all there is, standard for BLPs across the project. This is still in contravention of MOS:BODY and MOS:CHRONOLOGICAL, and the editor in question still hasn't pointed to any codified consensus that contradicts those manuals of style. The MOSes are the standards, and what this editor considers "regular" doesn't seem to jive with established consensus. If anybody can find support pages for JesseRafe's alleged agreed-upon standard, I'd really appreciate if they could add it here to correct me. In the meantime, I've reverted JesseRafe again IAW SOP and pointed to this discussion. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 18:27, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Date format

Why is Kim's article done in DMY? He's American and has done his activities in the United States? AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 01:13, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

The Manual of Style on military history says, "Per MOS:DATETIES, articles on subjects predominately related to militaries or military history should use the standard format adopted by the United Nations: […] DD Month YYYY (or D Month YYYY)." Kim is a member of the US Navy, has been for approximately 19 years (about 52% of his life), and it was this career that led to his other two (medicine and space training). — Fourthords | =Λ= | 13:16, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Kim is only notable for becoming an American astronaut, not because of his career as a Navy SEAL or physician. He had insufficient notability for an article prior to his selection as an astronaut. The localized date format should be treated like other American astronauts, as this page did not come about as a military biography. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 13:25, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Well, currently, 44% of the article explicitly concerns Kim's still-ongoing military service; that being the greatest percentage of the prose would seem to fit under the "predominately related" qualifier IAW WP:MILDATE. Also, his medical training (and arguably his NASA selection) sprang forth from his military service. Just because it may've been "Y" that initially brought the subject to Hektor's attention, doesn't mean that the biography isn't predominately about "X". That may change and it may not, but I'd say it hasn't thus far. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 14:00, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that once Kim has a spaceflight and presumably there is more information about his astronaut career that the date format should change? As far as I'm aware, there is not significant coverage of his active duty time outside of the astronaut corps, and this should not be treated as a military biography, but an astronaut biography. I don't believe this is any different than articles like Seth Moulton, Ron DeSantis, or Adam Kinzinger where the subject got their professional start in the military but are not notable because of their military service alone. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 12:50, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply anything covertly. My only input on the matter is what i said above, here consolidated: The Manual of Style on military history says, 'Per MOS:DATETIES, articles on subjects predominately related to militaries or military history should use the standard format adopted by the United Nations: […] DD Month YYYY (or D Month YYYY).' […] 44% of the article explicitly concerns Kim's still-ongoing military service; that being the greatest percentage of the prose would seem to fit under the "predominately related" qualifier IAW WP:MILDATE. Also, his medical training (and arguably his NASA selection) sprang forth from his military service. This is a biography, not an [adjective] biography. I'm only looking to the policies, guidelines, and manuals when editing, not other articles; I can't speak to the choices of other editors. Is there a superior MOS (or other consensus) that explicitly applies to biographical date-formatting of astronauts? — Fourthords | =Λ= | 20:41, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Expedition 65

He was not on expedition 65. What is meant by Increment Leads. Is it inaccurate or unclear? 24.96.87.8 (talk) 15:03, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't know what it means, actually. The source just says, And in April 2021, he was selected to serve as the International Space Station’s Increment Lead for Expedition 65. I added it because maybe it's important and should be included, but if it isn't important, it's of no harm to include it for now. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 15:10, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Education format

@Fourthords you reverted my changes to the Education section. Respectfully, I think you are interpreting the guidelines (Education, e.g., degree, institution and graduation year, if relevant.) far too strictly. It is orthodoxy to cite a person's education as simply [institution] ([degree attained]); the guidelines don't mean to cite in the exactly manner they have been presented, but rather as a statement on what should be included. As it stands, the current format uses, in my opinion, choppy and nearly Broken English when it need not be. GuardianH (talk) 06:24, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

I did revert your changes to the… education parameter of the infobox… IAW the BRD cycle. Barring any other consensus-established SOP for the |education= parameter, we have no other instructions for how to format this information in this infobox (your "orthodoxy" notwithstanding). For what it's worth, I do agree with the instructed standard: for a parameter titled "education", the actual education received would be the most-salient and obviously first item listed (with school and year following as increasingly less so). To list the school first doesn't make sense—except in the |alma_mater= parameter, which the infobox says to use instead when "very little information is available or relevant", which isn't the case here. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 14:19, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Both your interpretation of the guideline and the standard construction contain at heart the very same material; it is only a matter of what makes sense to the reader, not the Wikipedia editor. For one, your format diverges from the vast majority of other Wikipedia articles, and, secondly, it uses abbreviations which may be unfamiliar with some readers (i.e. U. of San Diego). Personally, I see no reason to risk the confusion over a minor stylistic detail. GuardianH (talk) 05:55, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you're finding a particular guideline on this matter; I'm referring to this page, formally referred to as the infobox's template documentation (and which I often call its instructions). If you can find a different, conflicting set of codified consensus for using {{infobox person}}, I'd be keen to see it. I've never seen any confusion over the infobox's standardized construction of the |education= parameter, especially when it makes sense for a parameter titled 'education', the actual education received would be the most-salient and obviously first item listed (with school and year following as increasingly less so).

The article at University of San Diego lists "USD" as its appropriate abbreviation. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Infoboxes certainly allows "greater abbreviation than that generally used in article bodies", but since "U. of San Diego" offers the reader greater context than USD, that's what was used. Now that you've pointed it out, though, the new interface has given infobox variables more breathing room and we can afford the entire name without any visual errors. I've done that, now!

Lastly, I recommend using edit summaries. They're extremely helpful and strongly recommended. For example, these three edits ([1], [2], and [3]) seem largely fine, but an edit summary can help other editors in numerous ways. Cheers! — Fourthords | =Λ= | 14:32, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

You are addressing an issue different from my assertion; both your version and mine contains the required contents to satisfy the guideline—content is not the issue. The problem as I see it is that you are implementing a format which is more likely to be confusing to the general reader because it is an unorthodox and idiosyncratic version which differs from the established standard across the vast majority of other Wikipedia articles. If we followed the general format in other articles, Kim's education would be more easily communicated to the reader. Regardless, it appears neither of us have the needed consensus unless other editors weigh in. GuardianH (talk) 06:50, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

The standard is established by consensus at Template:Infobox person/doc, which says for the |education= parameter, "Education, e.g., degree, institution and graduation year, if relevant." This is the first time I've been called unorthodox and idiosyncratic for adhering to that standard; I don't think it's ever come up in my many previous implementations of this infobox, either. As for why you think immediately following the |education= parameter with …the subject's education… is confusing, I'm sorry that I can't help you at this time. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 14:43, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Like I said previously, you have far too strictly (mis)interpreted the guideline to mean—quite literally—to place the corresponding values in the exact position as the guideline states it, but the guideline isn't asking for that, it's simply saying what should be included. The consensus, as demonstrated by the overwhelming majority of Wikipedia article (FAs included), is [institution] ([degree]), stickling for a format which differs from this consensus is unnecessarily confusing to a reader. If your format is the consensus, why then do all other Wikipedia articles' education parameter differ? GuardianH (talk) 17:40, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

My apologies: let me rephrse what I've said above, and try to make myself better-understandable. Firstly, if you're referring to Template:Infobox person/doc, that's isn't a guideline, but the template's documentation for how it's built and to be used. Secondly, I haven't checked all 410,755 transclusions of the 17.26-year-old {{infobox person}} for compliance with its most-recent formatting consensus; since you have, perhaps you should argue for a change in that codified consensus. Thirdly, it isn't "[my] format" as I neither provided input there nor do I own that template; I do, though, agree it makes sense that a subject's actual education received would be the most-salient and obviously first item listed (with school and year following as increasingly less so). — Fourthords | =Λ= | 19:01, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

United States and GuardianH

I'm asking here because I don't wish to risk the ire or wrath of GuardianH (talk · contribs) by further reverting their edits IAW consensuses, policies, and guidelines: without an any explanation, they edited the article to add full stops in the infobox's abbreviation for "United States". However, the Manual of Style says, the use or non-use of periods (full stops) should also be consistent with other country abbreviations in the same article. Would somebody else—who's as-yet uninvolved in GuardianH's edits here and less likely to risk escalation therewith—mind reverting that edit IAW the MOS & WP:BRD? — Fourthords | =Λ= | 14:43, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

You aren't incurring any ire or wrath from me by reverting my changes—you can just ask. It's fine if you obtain a different view so long as you communicate it to me in the talk page. Per the guideline, I'll make all abbreviations in the article consistent. GuardianH (talk) 17:57, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Astronaut group formatting

The formatting 'NASA Group 22 (2017)' is consistent with the standard used for most astronaut pages. In fact, of the 48 active astronauts in the NASA Astronaut Corps, this was the only page to not use that format. This naming convention is helpful given that multiple astronaut selection groups often occur within a single year. For instance, in 2017, there were also CSA and German groups. If there are strong preferences for an alternative format, I suggest discussing this further in a more appropriate forum with a broader group of editors. -- RickyCourtney (talk) 13:04, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

At {{infobox astronaut}}, the explicit instructions for |selection= say, Date when person selected to train as an astronaut. It says nothing about the group, and it certainly doesn't instruct users to duplicate the "NASA" qualifier that's already in the line immediately above. As we don't have the exact date Kim was chosen, 2017 is the only thing we're instructed to use that field for; adding and linking "(Group 22)" is extra, and should be formatted duly. Cheers for your partial reading of WP:BRD. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 23:44, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I don’t disagree, that is indeed what the template instructions say. (For the record: Kim and the rest of his group 22 classmates were officially announced/selected on 7 June 2017.) However, as I said, that is not the format that has been established across the pages for the other 47 active NASA astronauts and countless other pages for international astronauts and retired NASA astronauts. I can put in a talk page request over at the template to change the instructions to follow this established practice. RickyCourtney (talk) 02:02, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I don’t disagree, that is indeed what the template instructions say. So the consensus-based instructions, and this page's longstanding formatting are the same, but you... just don't like that other pages're out of said compliance? I certainly don't object to your trying to change that consensus, but until you do, neither WP:CONSENSUS nor WP:BRD support making such edits in the face of opposition. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 00:36, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

That presumes that the template instructions were written through a robust process of consensus making. Considering the absolute crickets on the talk page to my suggestion, I’d respectfully suggest that the instructions may have just been added by a well meaning editor without such a rigorous process. In my 15 years of experience, that’s often how I’ve found these instructions were written.

On the flip side of this discussion, I’d like to make the case that sometimes on Wikipedia, the established practices are the consensus. The vast majority of pages follow this format, most were not because of me. RickyCourtney (talk) 21:33, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Either this page needs to be changed to comply with the instructions, or the instructions need to be changed to reflect your presumptive consensus; which are you tackling? Secondly, what is the purpose of repeating the "NASA" descriptor a mere two words apart? Per the infobox instructions, he is a "NASA Astronaut"; we don't need to repeat that information in the very next line, do we? — Fourthords | =Λ= | 12:34, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Not sure what you're asking as this page now complies with the revised instructions. The purpose of repeating the NASA descriptor a mere two words apart is that there are different types of astronauts and different groups of astronauts. This concern will be alleviated in a few months when Kim launches into space and the time in space parameter will be added to the infobox between the astronaut type and selection parameters. -- RickyCourtney (talk) 18:49, 24 October 2024 (UTC)