Talk:John Nelson Darby

Eucharist?

I am rather surprised to notice that, on the 3rd paragraph under the section Middle Years in this biography, the reference to "break bread" is linked to the Wikipedia article on the Eucharist. Darby himself made a very clear distinction between the Lord's Supper as he believed it should be held and the Holy Communion as it is held by the Roman Catholic Church. His views on the teaching of the Lord's Supper can be read in Familiar Conversations on Romanism (Eighth Conversation - Transubstantiation) where he plainly states in regard of the teachings of transubstantiation:

"...I affirm all this to be a delusion and a fallacy."

There does not appear to be an article for Lord's Supper so I was unable to redirect the link. Do any other editors of this article have any suggestions? Comment added by User:GaryB84 (talk) 23:09, 11 November 2008‎

The Eucharist is "a giving thanks" a sentiment I think Mr Darby would gladly endorse since it refers to the actions of Christ before he commenced the breaking of bread. In fact, Eucharist is suited to Exclusive Brethren teaching as amongst Raven/Taylor groups the breaking of bread is at the beginning of a meeting and is explicitly a thanksgiving as much as it is a memorial. Gregory Morris, Penymynydd, Flintshire (talk) 16:12, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

The mention of "break bread" is definitely not a reference to the Eucharist. 99.0.37.176 (talk) 21:29, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

At present the topic The Lord's Supper, which is also used by Brethren, appears in the Eucharist article, as does the breaking of bread. Clearly the meaning/significance is different though it is recognizable. If you want to split that article then you should discuss it on that page. Chris55 (talk) 22:08, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Criticism of Pretribulationism

There is a lot of criticism of his thesis of a pretribulation rapture, which he basically invented. This should be mentioned in the article. --41.151.11.43 (talk) 17:32, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Most of the discussion of this topic, such as there is, occurs in the article Rapture. But please add to this article if you have reliable sources that describe the controversies. Chris55 (talk) 22:00, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

LOL, there is a lot of criticism of the attacks on the trib-trib theory! What is your proof that Darby invented the pre-trib theory? Some claim that it came from a crazy Scot girl and other from a Jesuit plot -- neither theory is persuasive to me. But it does appears to me that an ancient document, Sermon on The Last Times, The Antichrist, and The End of the World, whether by Ephraem the Syrian or a Pseudo-Ephraem, espouses a pre-trib rapture. The actual author is unimportant to the antiquity of this POV. The exact date also of this document is unimportant (4th-8th century) to the evidence of the antiquity of the POV.

"For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? . . . For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." < http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/myths-of-origin-pretribulationism-part-1

Some see evidence of pre-trib rapture in Shepherd of Hermas. Others see this POV in the NT itself as Christians are said to be delivered from the wrath to come and the Church of Philadelphia in Rev. 3 is promised to escape the time of trouble. Since this article is not about the pre-trib rapture, IMHO it is best just to say that Darby popularized that POV. (EnochBethany (talk) 04:06, 29 December 2015 (UTC))

The Claim that the Open Brethren Have Congregational Government?

I note that this claim has no citation to support it. My own observations lead me to believe that calling the govt of the Open Brethren "Congregational," is inadequate and possibly misleading. IMHO, Brethren church government is a mixture of unelected elder government, consensus, and spontaneous anarchy. I am unaware of any formal elections ever taking place. It is true that congregations are independent of each other, but is that not also true of close brethren? I don't think "congregational" is a distinctive of Open Brethren. (EnochBethany (talk) 06:10, 28 December 2015 (UTC))

I Deleted the reference to "hyperdispensationalism."

I don't know if "hyperdispensationalism" was meant as a slur word, but I omitted it because I did not find it in the citation. The term "hyperdispensationalism" has been hung on those who believe that the Church was founded after the Day of Pentecost (e.g, Bullinger). I don't think Darby taught that at all. A hyperdispensationalist may find that the Church was not in existence until the end of Acts, possibly not having water baptism. If one wishes to claim that dispensationalists in general are hyper, that would probably be a violation of NPOV. (EnochBethany (talk) 06:20, 28 December 2015 (UTC))

Confusing Material needs re-writing

For example, it is stated (with no citation) some claim that this rapture theory is the origin of the rapture theory -- an absurd tautology. The article seems to confuse the pre-trib theory with the rapture itself. The Rapture itself is no theory, but a Bible fact in 1 Thes 4:17 "harpagēsometha" = rapiemur = we shall be raptured (caught up). Now Christians don't agree on the timing of this event relative to other prophecy -- they also don't agree on whether this catching up is the same as the 2nd Coming of Christ to establish a Kingdom. But the Rapture itself is a clear Bible doctrine. Darby cannot be the originator of the Rapture Doctrine; you may debate if he is the originator of the pre-trib theory. IMHO it is safer to say that he popularized a theory which in fact is not commonly found in the earlier literature which the RCC preserved from antiquity and the middle ages. However, the pre-trib theory is probably datable to at least the 8th century, if not to the NT itself. But that is not the topic of this article. Let it suffice to say that Darby popularized this POV. (EnochBethany (talk) 06:39, 28 December 2015 (UTC))

Delete Blue Side Bar Critical Comments on Darby & His POV

That blue side bar is a violation of NPOV. It is a hatchet job on Darby and/or his POV (EnochBethany (talk) 06:43, 28 December 2015 (UTC))

Connection of Darby & Scofield

I think that Scofield met Darby when Darby came to the USA, so that possibly Darby taught his pre-trib POV to Scofield. Someone could improve the article if he can provide good proof of a connection between Darby & Scofield, as well as the nature & duration of their interaction. Speculative vociferations on this subject should not be cited as proof of anything, however. (EnochBethany (talk) 04:12, 29 December 2015 (UTC))

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