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Talk:John Dickson Stufflebeem

Latest comment: 2 years ago by Neovu79 in topic Stufflebeem's Rank
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Corrections or Spin?

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This article appears to have been "rather transparently" rewritten by the subject, Mr. Stufflebeem, as evinced by the user name, the level of detail unpublished elsewhere, and the extremely favorable tone. Although he had a near-stellar Navy career, Stufflebeem wishes to minimalize the seminal event that cost him his Navy career, his three-star billet, a three-star retirement, and more. This is comparable to a biography of Richard Nixon completely ignoring the lies that followed Watergate. Stufflebeem's documented "Clitonesque" lying to DoD IG investigators about a dalliance while a Presidential military aide resulted in a written reprimand, his being relieved of his duties as Director, Navy Staff, and retirement at two-star rank. However, the Wiki bio only states (correctly) that "His removal from his post was not directly due to the allegations." What is glossed over is that his removal was directly due to the "false and misleading testimony" Stufflebeem gave to investigators on multiple occasions. (DoD IG report: http://www.dodig.mil/fo/foia/ERR/Stufflebeem%20ROI%20Black%20Out%20Copy.pdf) CarlitosCorazon 07:17, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Counterpoint to the below

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As an active duty Naval Officer, RDML Stufflebeem was subject to the Uniformed Code of Miltary Justice (UCMJ). The Naval Criminal Investigative Service thoroughly investigated the "alleged" dalliance and concluded that it did, in fact, happen. As this "affair" was not a crime nor subject to a civil trial, whether it was "proven" or not is irrelevant. The NCIS report is very convincing.

Yet, to be crystal clear, it was RDML Stufflebeem's lying about the event - to both NCIS investigators and his superiors - that doomed him. During the UCMJ process effected in reaction to his lies, he was, no doubt, given the option for a Court Martial. That he refused that opportunity and opted for Admiral's Mast instead speaks volumes about the veracity of the original accusation.

As to the inclusion of this event in Wikipedia... As the UCMJ was the legal system to which RDML Stufflebeem was subject, Wikipedia must acccept his guilt (on both the affair and the lying which followed) as factual, just as they would a guilty plea from a civil court. Would you undue the conclusions of the Nuremeberg Trials simply because they were not conducted in a U.S. civil court? Should O.J. have been imprisoned even though he was found "Not Guilty" of the murders of his wife and her acquaintance? Wikipedia has to recognize the condemnation of a legal system until it is overturned via that same system. The "facts" are: RDML Stufflebeem had an affair while married. He lied to NCIS investigators and his superiors about it. He was relieved as a result. He retired in disgrace. Like many Naval Officers before and after him, he paid the price for poor judgement. CarlitosCorazon 07:17, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Corrections and Additions

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Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I have edited the Wikipedia biography for John Dickson Stufflebeem to correct significant inaccuracies, better reflect his life and contributions to our country and society during a distinguished 33-year career and also to better conform this entry to the Wikipedia policies for biographies about living persons (using appropriate links to reliable and verifiable sources). To achieve these goals, I have collected significant events relevant to John Stufflebeem's life and organized them into appropriate categories.

These revisions to this biography on a living person are necessary to adhere to the spirit, policies and guidelines of Wikipedia, preclude harm and avoid the appearance of a personal attack based on a single incident (alleged to have occurred over 18 years prior and at all times denied by the subject) which was politically motivated and not the subject of any judicial process. Due to military process, the subject could not respond at the time to these allegations in the press, nor can he respond to them in a Wikipedia entry. To have "sensational" allegations appear to be the sole measures defining his life and career in Wikipedia would be extremely unfair, and contrary to Wikipedia's goals, purposes, guidelines and policies.

Based on verifiable and referenced sources I have made additions to this biography to include significant events that occurred during the subject's distinguished military career, beginning with his well documented fame for playing football at the collegiate and professional levels over a number of years as well as global media exposure while briefing the international press on military operations in Afghanistan following the events of 9/11, 2001. Notable command leadership events were also included for the subject's participation in the war in Iraq in 2003, the NATO effort to the devastating earthquake in northern Pakistan in 2005, the Israeli-Lebanon war of 2006, and the opening modern forays into Africa in 2007.

Some portions of this biography of a living person were deleted due to inaccuracies and multiple reporting of a singular alleged event that sounds scandalous, but was not proven. Even if the event had related to something that was true, the amount of coverage in the previous Wikipedia biography compared to the vast amount of accurate and notable information available on a thirty-three year career was out of balance and unfair.

Note: I know John Stufflebeem personally, and worked with him as a colleague; however, I do not work with him currently or have any financial interest in any business or other venture with him. All edits are submitted from a neutral point of view. Accordingly, there is no conflict of interest and all edits further the spirit, purpose, policies and guidelines of Wikipedia.

Navyrdml (talk) 19:58, 14 September 2009 (UTC)Reply

a clarification

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Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Regarding this edit, he was demoted due to being relieved of his position. If you check the cited source it states:

Stufflebeem’s rank has reverted to rear admiral, which is typically done when an officer is not serving in a three-star billet. Officers need congressional approval to serve as vice admiral or above, and can only maintain that rank when actually serving in those jobs.

--Rockfang (talk) 23:17, 17 May 2008 (UTC)Reply

Foreign Awards

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Latest comment: 13 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

This page has his US & foreign awards split form each other. Yet it has the Kuwait Liberation Medal (Wisam Al-Tahrir) that is awarded by the nation of Kuwait listed under his US military awards. This need to be fixed, just because the medal was accepted by Secretary of Defense William J. Perry for automatic wear, doesn’t make it a US award. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.6.84.110 (talk) 19:48, 15 February 2011 (UTC)Reply

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Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 6 external links on John Dickson Stufflebeem. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:43, 24 April 2017 (UTC)Reply

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Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on John Dickson Stufflebeem. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

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NOTICE Re:John Dickson Stufflebeem

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Latest comment: 4 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion
  Moved from User talk:2601:5C2:0:22A0:2092:ADB:F413:D2F4 (permalink)

NOTICE

On behalf of Mr. Stufflebeem, on October 22, 2020, edits were attempted to the Page published entitled "John Dickson Stufflebeem" located at https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/John_Dickson_Stufflebeem on to remove violations of Wikipedia's policies and defamation law. Such edits also included summaries and descriptions of the edits on the page’s “talk page”. Unfortunately, all efforts were immediately “undone” by various users, including users known as “Primefac”, “Materialscientist”, and “EMachine03”. In fact, user “Primefac” blocked all further edits from being made and “protected” the Page, citing “disruptive editing”.

Mr. Stufflebeem is a living person, yet the content posted to the Page violates all three content policies of Wikipedia’s Biographies of Living Persons. First, the content is not published from a neutral point of view. Second, much of the content is not verified, and refers to material for which no reliable, published sources exist, specifically, citations in footnotes 6, 11, and 14 still lead to unreliable or “dead” links.

Finally, the Page continues to publish, and republish, false and defamatory content about Mr. Stufflebeem through both its content and republication of “sources” cited. The following defamatory statements still remain:

(i) Footnote 6, a dead link, states that Mr. Stufflebeem was “fired over false testimony”. Mr. Stufflebeem was never “fired” from any employment he has held during his lifetime;

(ii) Footnotes 8 and 13 republish false and defamatory allegations originally published by CNN, including that Mr. Stufflebeem was “fired”… “after being convicted”. Again, Mr. Stufflebeem was never fired. Nor was Mr. Stufflebeem convicted of any charge as alleged;

(iii) Footnote 12 cites to an alleged United States Department of Defense Report, classified by the DOD as “FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY”. The document specifies that the document is “property of the Department of Defense, Office of Inspector General. Release or disclosure of the contents is prohibited by DOD Directive 5106.1. Contents may be disclosed only to persons whose official duties require access hereto. Contents cannot be released outside the Defense Department without the approval of the Department of Defense, Office of Inspector General.”;

(iv) The “Controversy” section of the Page publishes that Mr. Stufflebeem was “removed” as director the Navy Staff, and that his “removal was directly due to the false and misleading testimony Stufflebeem gave”. Similar to the use of the word “fired”, the term “removed” is incorrect and defamatory, nor is the information about “false and misleading testimony” correct. Furthermore, the term “Controversy” as used in the heading violates Wikipedia’s policy that categories and titles should not be used to suggest poor reputation.

It is clear from the aforementioned that the Page, which includes dead links and use of other confidential “court” (DOD) records, was established to serve as an “attack page” against Mr. Stufflebeem. Such purpose is a further violation of Wikipedia’s policies.

On behalf of John Dickson Stufflebeem, all users are hereby on Notice of potential claims for defamation and violation of Wikipedia's policy. You are to cease and desist any and all publication of such information. Any edits performed on behalf of Mr. Stufflebeem to remove such false and defamtory information that are "undone" by any user will be addressed with legal action. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:5C2:0:22A0:2092:ADB:F413:D2F4 (talk) 17:13, 30 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

Ooookay, lots to unpack here.
(i) Footnote 6 is a source for his football career. I can't help what the title of the article was, but that's not what it's being used for.
(ii) Wikipedia uses independent sources for information, and CNN is considered a reliable source. If their information is not correct, then they should be contacted about it.
(iii) Clearly, it can and has been released outside the DOD.
(iv) Similar to ii, "removed" is the same term used in the source
This is not an attack page, and in fact when I rewrote it I did my darndest to make sure the controversy wasn't as front-and-center as it was in the old version. Not everyone has a 100% rosy history, and we do not whitewash pages. I highly suggest that anything else is forwarded to legal wikimedia.org, as they're the ones to make legal threats to. Primefac (talk) 20:28, 30 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
and violation of Wikipedia's policy interesting; I haven't heard of a third party trying to enforce Wikipedia's community-created policies, against the community, in a court of law before. Anyhoo, if you want to discuss improvements and edits in a normal tone, feel free. Legal threats, direct them to legal. I suspect you will get further with the first approach, but it's all up to you really. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:58, 30 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

Possible replacement for Philadelphia Inquirer April 22 reference

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Latest comment: 4 years ago12 comments2 people in discussion

The Philiadelphia Enquirer reference dated April 22, 2008. It is a very minimal reference. I couldn't find it online, but I didn't search paywalled sites.

I found what would be a suitable replacement if it can be authenticated. Since I can't authenticate it, I didn't add it to the article.

  • "IG: 3-Star Lied About Sex in the White House". Veterans for Common Sense. Army Times. Archived from the original on 2020-01-03 – via Veterans for Common Sense. relevant quote hidden in HTML comment pending authentication of source {{cite web}}: |archive-date= / |archive-url= timestamp mismatch; 2020-10-30 suggested (help)

davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 22:56, 30 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

I knew I was forgetting something. I did track down the original (was only able to keep a screenshot as it was behind a paywall, i.e. no point in linking to it) but I do at least have the title and info. I'll update the article accordingly. Primefac (talk) 22:59, 30 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
All we need is enough info to look it up in dead-tree from at a public library that subscribes to that publication. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 23:03, 30 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
I believe my title addition will help with that. Primefac (talk) 23:06, 30 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
I found a copy online, but it's from a non-reliable source. If the copy is correct, the Inquirer got it from the Associated Press.[1]archive.org davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 23:09, 30 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
That is indeed the text of it, but I think if there's not an available copy online of the real thing (either from PI itself or newspapers.com) we shouldn't be linking to it. Primefac (talk) 23:17, 30 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
If you have a newspapers.com subscription, can you check to see if this is a match? It's the same day, from the Pensacola News Journal. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 23:21, 30 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
(edit conflict) If anyone has access to Army Times archives, help in authenticating this would be appreciated. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 23:01, 30 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
Yeah, that's probably the one piece missing. I found the quote from a similar not-really-linkable source, which (see my reply in the previous section) is entirely being used for the football information verification. Also, minor point, it's the Navy Times. Primefac (talk) 23:06, 30 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
(edit conflict) Also, for reference, the PI article was literally just for verification of the demotion and reprimand; everything else was covered by other (more easily accessible) reliable sources. I haven't dug into your proposal, but the name alone makes me question whether it's a reliable source; it's basically just a WordPress blog. Primefac (talk) 23:04, 30 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
Another possible source:
davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 23:18, 30 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
I suppose that works, it's both online and provides verification for the preceding sentences. Primefac (talk) 23:38, 30 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

Stufflebeem's Rank

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Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

@Primefac: While I do understand your point of view, regards of what his final retirement rank is: (1) Stufflebeem was appointed to the rank of vice admiral. (2) All three and four-star ranks are actually temporary ranks and are not permanent ones. (3) All three and four-star ranks can only be achieved, and held, while an officer is assigned to an office/position designated at that rank. If an officer is removed from said office/position, then they cease to be a three or four-star, and are automatically reverted back to their last permanent rank, unless they are appointed to another three or four-star assignment. In the case of my edit, the wording is pretty accurate. Stufflebeem was a former vice admiral, and served in that rank while he was the commander of the U.S. Sixth Fleet and then later as the director of the Navy Staff. The fact that he didn't retire as one is noted if the Infobox and in the article itself. Neovu79 (talk) 16:48, 27 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

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