Talk:John Arbuthnott, 16th Viscount of Arbuthnott

Questions

Doing general cleanup on all the Arbuthnots. I did not delete any information from this article. I had a few questions, though.

• MA (after Gonville and Caius College) -- does this mean he earned a Master of Arts degree? I assumed that it did.
• Why is he not Sir John? Or should he be? He is a Knight of the Thistle. Perhaps a Viscount does not prepend Sir when Knighted? Just wondering.
• He is a Fellow of the surveyor's society. In the RISC article it says that members are admitted only by exam, so I assumed he is actually qualified as a surveyor and this is not an honorary membership. It doesn't say what the difference is between a regular Member and a Fellow -- is a Fellow highly qualified, or what? His other Fellowships seem to be honorary.
• It says he has an LL.D, but doesn't say where he got it, no education listed after Gonville and Caius. It's not an honorary LL.D, is it?

Herostratus 18:24, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Information

Some editor (User:Mais oui!) added the notability template. The Lord High Commissioner is Her Majesty's representative in Scotland. There are only 13 Knights of the Thistle at any one time. The subject is obviously notable - one of the most notable living Scotsmen. I removed the tag as being ludicrous. - Kittybrewster 10:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Calm down. The reason I put up that template is that the introduction, and really the whole article, makes zero effort to present why he is notable. It gives lots of awards and titles, but almost no actual information about his career whatsoever. It took me a couple of reads before I established that he is primarliy notable for being a soldier and a businessman (or so it would appear from the current text). Frankly, this article is currently nothing more than listcruft. Please write a half-decent introduction for the guy, if you do actually know why he is notable?

Please read WP:Notability. --Mais oui! 10:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I added the reads like a resume template. WP:Notability relates to amount of reliable source coverage rather than importance or fame. Although there seems to be enough reliable source coverage to develop the article so as to meet WP:Notability, this seems to fall more into WP:NOT as a compilation of uninteresting facts presented in a resume format. Its not a list as in listcruft, but perhaps fancruft? applies. The article lacks a hook - an interesting fact to attract or pique the interest of a reader. Did he do anything noteworthy in either his position as a soldier or businessman? There is nothing in the article that conveys he is one of the most important living Scotsmen. -- Jreferee 19:22, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Well I think having a Arts degree (BA) in Estate Management rather than a science degree (BSC) makes him very notable indeed. In fact that particular qualification from that University college is truly notable Giano 19:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Whoever wrote that garbage about BA/MA should really get their facts straight. At Oxford and Cambridge the first degree (normally three years, sometimes four depending on the course) is a BA. Some stay on to do a MA (one or two years depending on the course) others return later to do it, as did Viscount Arbuthnott. From what I can see this peer is extremely notable and appears to be a workaholic! I have added two very good contempory references and their ISBNs and removed the template. David Lauder 14:54, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

So this whole page is garbage then Master of Arts (Oxford, Cambridge and Dublin) odd that, considering I know some people very well, of Arbuthnott's generation with "MA Cantab" may not agree with you, perpaps you were neither Cantab or Oxon - because that is something an awful ot of peope know Giano 20:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

It needs to be re-written to accommodate its current stance. I will also bring it to the attention of the university. David Lauder 07:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

• As an Oxbridge graduate, I can confirm that David Lauder's comments are, in his words, "garbage". Graduates do not "stay on to do an MA" but receive them automatically on application a couple of years after leaving. It is obvious that Lauder did not attend Oxford or Cambridge - if he had, his facts might be better aligned. Flozu 21:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

You can stay on to study for an MA after graduating BA. I know several who did so. I had to apply to return to study for an MA years later and I had to work for mine very hard. Any suggestion that my MA is honourary and below the levels of a red-brick university's BA is absolutely insulting. I certainly would not have returned to do it if someone had told me that I could swan back in seven years and get an honourary one. Maybe I had forgotten but I don;t recall that. Presumably what you are saying is that every entry for every individual who ever received and MA for either Oxford or Cambridge should have (Hon) added to it? If so, it sounds like a lot of work for the editors of Who's Who etc. David Lauder 06:59, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

• If I were you I would ask for my money back, but you must admit making people work for an MA while they sumultaneously give them away rather debases a genuine (worked for) Oxbridge MA. Have they now stopped this practice? - a close member of my family certainly obtained one of these dodgy MAs within the last few years - time does fly but I'm sure it wws within the last six or seven. Giano 09:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

• As it is over thirty years ago I cannot recall. My MA was in a different subject to my BA.

Another graduate has emailed this to me: "the Two Universities have created MAs for which you have to study, so as to please the Americans, and also to enable people who got BA's somewhere else to get an MA as Oxbridge. Earlier on in the 20th century, they made a similar move to please the Americans. Because an English Doctorate is an almost impossible thing to achieve, they invented the lesser D Phil (PhD in Cambridge). But as it is a lesser degree, only the ignorant or vain would call themselves "Dr." if they only had a D Phil." Regards, David Lauder 09:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

A doctorate from there is the same as a doctorate from any other British University. MAs are awarded a few years after graduation to most holders of BAs. MAs are not awarded as a research or taught degree. MPhils are awarded instead. You can look it all up on their web-pages, e.g. [1]. DrKay 10:48, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I have dug mine out. It is a Masters in Business Administration, so MBA not MA. I think I should apologise. David Lauder 12:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

For doing an MBA, you certainly should apologise. You should have done a proper degree. ;-) DrKay 12:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I did a BA in Modern History at Oxford. I'm afraid I don't recall being told it could be converted into an MA automatically. Possibly I am a bit slow. David Lauder 18:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

David, are you saying that your degree is an MBA from Cambridge? Because I think you'll find: http://www.thecambridgemba.com/ that you can't have done one "over thirty years ago." They've only done them since 1990.

No. Cambridge interests me not. I returned to read Business Administration 5 years after my BA. I thought it was an MA but now I see it was an MBA. I feel a little stupid but everyone makes silly mistakes sometimes. It is astonishing how several people got bees in their bonnets about this and were all too ready to make a mountain out of a molehill. David Lauder 18:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Yawn. I shouldn't worry, David, no-one else ever apologises on this site! Anyway, from the article itself there's no indication that the MA came from Cambridge: could it have come from elsewhere, perhaps?--Major Bonkers (talk) 12:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

• In David's defense he did say he was at Oxford and not Cambridge. I am getting quite confused though. First, he said he took an MA at Oxford, after apparently not realising that Oxford graduates get one automatically. Then, after "digging it out", he realised he'd actually taken an MBA (easy mistake to make, honest, guv'nor). He went on to say he'd taken his Oxford MBA "over thirty years ago". I'm just a bit troubled, though, by the fact that Oxford's first MBA intake was 1996/7, as the OUG reports here [2]. I look forward to the next installment of this tall tale. Flozu 20:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

User:Flozu's appearance on this page slagging me off in the most uncivil manner is because I refuse to stand aside on another WP page where she wishes to promote a false claim to a barony. Really I don't have to answer these extremely personal sneers by others I have no knowledge of whatsoever and who have axes to grind, but my last contribution to this slanging match is that I attended a new college, the Oxford Centre for Management Studies, founded in 1967, which is now udner a new name and can be found here [3] David Lauder 20:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

• The Oxford Centre for Management Studies, founded in 1965, became Templeton College in 1983, by which name it is still known. It did become not a college of Oxford University until 1995, as can be seen here [4]. I think we can all finally conclude that David's claim to an MA/MBA from Oxford University is bogus. Flozu 22:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

You insist upon harrassment, don't you.I am not interested in these stupid internet links. My MA was issued under the auspices of Oxford University and that is good enough for me. No-one on Wikipedia has to satisfy your lust for abusing and accusing other. David Lauder 07:30, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

• I don't often say this on Wikipedia, in fact I have never said it so take note David - I believe you but it matters not a jot - you have nothing to prove or a need to prove anything - we are all here judged on what we do on the site. Flozu you are obviously very bright and far younger than some of us here. Sadly (and you will be there one day sooner than you realise) we do get older, the years roll into one, only the other day I thought I had gone to a friend's wedding anniversary party - very nice sausage rolls and prawn vol-au-vents a little mean on the wine I thought, then I realised it was one of those very nasty modern delayed nondenominational memorial services that they hold in hotels these days, and the poor bloke was dead, well it can't have been much fun for him and it certainly wasn't for me - who next one wonders. So Flozu don't be so harsh do unto others etc. etc. etc. for your turn will surely come. Giano 21:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

• I've always thought it best to give no personal details at all, I certainly think some Wikipedia editors would have less problems if they kept their private selves private. I'm not that bothered where David or anyone else was or was not educated. In my experience contributions are the best indication of judging an editors ability, but then I have been criticised for judging people on that - so perhaps it is best to just keep one's head down churn out the pages and say nothing. Better to be thought a fool than open one's mouth and prove it. Giano 20:28, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I am late on this one but a basic search for "taught Masters" at Oxford University shows there are numerous such MAs. - Kittybrewster

(talk) 20:37, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure you are quite right Kitty. Giano 21:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Masters have been available at Oxford for decades. Christchurch 15:34, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Obituaries

• [5] Kittybrewster ☎ 12:50, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
• [6] Kittybrewster ☎ 11:10, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Career - Aberdeen & Northern Marts

I changed 'Aberdeen & Northern Markets' to 'Aberdeen & Northern Marts', as I could only find the latter using Google. If Arbuthnott actually did work for AN Markets then apologies and please revert my edit. John a s (talk) 22:03, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

I've changed it to Estates, which is the company name given at Companies House: [7]. DrKay (talk) 15:50, 8 June 2022 (UTC)