Talk:Jenolan Caves

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Hey, i created a category of pics of Jenolan caves at Commons, and added a few pics i had (of the river and imperial/diamond caves. Feel free to add them in here, or if you have your own Jenolan pics upload them to commons. The bellman 10:35, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Mirror site

This article is identical to Jenolan Caves Information, which appears to be a mirror of the Wikipedia article, rather than the other way around (ie a copvio).--Grahamec 04:07, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

That site is no longer extant --BrianFG 21:59, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe the pool of cerberus cave was called the skeleton cave because of the skeleton of an aboriginal girl that used to be shown there (certainly when I first visited in the mid 1980s). It is no longer shown. I'm sure there are guidebooks from the period detailing this.Jghford 12:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

History of the area

I added a section about the history of the area during an update about a year ago and it's been completely removed. I tried to view the history file to find out why, but have been unable to. What was the reason for removing this section as I would consider it to be pretty important? --BrianFG 21:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The second sentence of this section is asserts, "However, this is still a theory." Does this mean to say that it is still a theory that scientists estimated the age of this cave to be approximately 340 million years old, or that the method they used is still theoretical, or perhaps that the Earth is (still) not much older than 6000 years of normal time, and that any point much earlier must then be theoretical. Perhaps someone would like to include a passage from Genesis to support this statement? I think the rest of you know where I'm going with this...Jace1 (talk) 22:59, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

History

I don't beleive the following statement could be geographically correct, what is the exact route of the origianl road?

"The road to the caves originally went in from Tarana, which meant that travellers from the south had to take a long, roundabout route of about 90 miles from Katoomba to Oberon, and, from there, to Tarana". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.19.130.241 (talk) 05:52, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Tourism

I found a pdf and a pdf link to cite "In 2008 and 2009, Jenolan Caves won several tourism awards, from Blue Mountains Tourism and NSW Tourism." The actual pdf is on <a href="http://www.jenolancaves.org.au/imagesDB/wysiwyg/AnnualReport0809.pdf" rel="nofollow">Link text</a> on page 3, and the link to it is <a href=http://www.jenolancaves.org.au/about/part-of-nsw-government/" rel="nofollow">Link text</a> Can someone edit this in with references, etc. Richie2154 (talk) 01:15, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

 Done Guliolopez (talk) 14:56, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

WP:NOTTRAVEL

Is it just me of does the "tourism" section seem a bit problematic relative to the "Wikipedia is not a travel guide" guidelines. While some of the content is relevant and valid, I don't think the article is the place to be referring to specific tour options, lengths, etc. A few examples should suffice. Further, the section is very scarce on references, and some of the content (in particular the inexplicable assertion about the "longest running school tour ever") is crying-out for decent references. Unless there are other opinions, I will likely undertake a review to summarise. Guliolopez (talk) 13:41, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

It's not bad enough to bother me personally, but I note that there is an article on the Jenolan Caves on wikitravel, so you could re-locate any "too much like a travel guide" content onto that page. Kerry (talk) 21:53, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Ah, wikitravel is now WikiVoyage so I guess it is WikiVoyage:Jenolan_Caves that we should be migrating content to. Kerry (talk) 22:00, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Discovery "legend"

Until recently the article referred to the fact that there are several claims to the who/when/how of the caves' discovery. However, this "vagueness" factor was recently removed. And replaced with a single discovery theory. I have some concerns about this. Not least because the claim is based on one letter to a newspaper, from one "eye witness", that was published apparently FIFTY YEARS after the event. I don't think that this is strong enough to warrant excising all other theories - and leaving only the romantic "James Whalan was chasing a bushranger" legend. Even the official website includes Whalan, his brother(s) and McKeown in the discovery narrative. And doesn't attempt to pick a "single truth". As such, I'm not sure why we've decided to reference just the one theory. While the letter (and it's claim) should be referenced (and cited), I think that the some of the vagueness should remain. Thoughts? Guliolopez (talk) 11:09, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

I found this document about Charles Whalan which was published by George Whalan in 1887 (presumably some family member). It attributes the discovery of the mouth of cave to James Whalan in 1838 in pursuit of the bushranger McEwan, but the progressive exploration and opening up of the caves to visitors to his brother Charles (who lived nearby). Again, this is published very much after the event, but contains a lot more detail about who did what and one wonders if the Whalan family might well be the best-informed on who did what among the family members. Kerry (talk) 02:03, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

"Fish Hirer Cave[?] BAsh Rangers— Fis Gallure". Australian Town and Country Journal (NSW : 1870 - 1907). NSW: National Library of Australia. 21 June 1884. p. 19. Retrieved 17 December 2013. Again, well after the event, but explains why James Whalan was pursuing McEwan. Kerry (talk) 02:17, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

"Notes of a Trip to the Fish River Caves". The Singleton Argus and Upper Hunter General Advocate (NSW : 1874 - 1880). NSW: National Library of Australia. 10 May 1879. p. 4. Retrieved 17 December 2013. Same story, James found the cave mouth, told Charles who explored it and opened it up. Kerry (talk) 02:25, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

"NEWS FROM THE INTERIOR". The Sydney Morning Herald (NSW : 1842 - 1954). NSW: National Library of Australia. 25 April 1853. p. 2. Retrieved 17 December 2013. no claim about who discovered the caves but earliest reference I can find linking the Whalans to the caves. Kerry (talk) 02:29, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

"Police Office". Bathurst Advocate (NSW : 1848 - 1849). NSW: National Library of Australia. 13 May 1848. p. 3. Retrieved 17 December 2013. 1848 mention of the caves being near Charles Whalan's farm (no mention of who discovered them) Kerry (talk) 02:32, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

"THE FISH RIVER STALACTIVE CAVES". Empire (Sydney, NSW : 1850 - 1875). Sydney, NSW: National Library of Australia. 26 February 1857. p. 5. Retrieved 17 December 2013. 1857: Unnamed people discovered the caves in pursuit of a bushranger twenty years ago and they told Charles Whalan who then explored them. The description of the approach seems to suggest the mouth of the cave would not have been easily found unless you were going well out of your way (as I guess you would be if you were pursuing a bushranger). Kerry (talk) 03:33, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

I think the evidence is stacking up for the story that James Whalan (and possibly others) found the mouth of the cave in pursuit of the bushranger McEwan (McKeon) but Charles explored them and opened them up. There's no claim that the bushranger was in the caves or discovered, indeed one of the articles above is quite explicit that he lived in a hut some way north of the caves. Certainly there's no evidence of James taking any interest in the caves beyond finding the mouth, the rest seems to have been the work of Charles (possibly he lived nearer). On the theory of "history being written by the victor", Charles outlived James by 30 years, yet Charles' obituary is giving James the credit for finding the cave mouth. Kerry (talk) 03:33, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

I managed to find a copy of the 1899 Lithgow Mercury article that was being mentioned earlier. It seems to be telling a consistent story with some of the other articles above. However, the preamble on the web page outlines a new theory involving a convict, but nothing I turned up in the newspaper articles supports that. Kerry (talk) 03:43, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

That's excellent stuff. Brilliant. Thanks for that. I think it supports a little bit of a re-write (from the current) to include a slightly more inclusive paragraph (that [re]includes the brother or brothers). But possibly doesn't attempt to attrib too much to McKeown. If you are amenable I might make a first pass at writing that para. Or, given that you did all the proper hard-work, would you like to "hold the pen"? Guliolopez (talk) 16:45, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm easy either way. I was thinking of something along the lines of "There are no known contemporaneous accounts of the discovery of the caves. However, Charles Whalan was the first to conduct visitors to the caves [cite cite cite]. In his obituary, however, credit for the discovery of the caves was given to his brother James Whalan and this is supported by other sources [cite cite cite]. Although these much later accounts differ somewhat in the details, the general story is that James Whalan was in pursuit of ... <tell the McEwen/McKeown story in which James discovers the cave entrance and tells Charles>." I think when there is some doubt, it's better to be up front with the reader with what we know and how we know it. I agree that it is somewhat concerning that most of the sources on the discovery are 40-50 years after the event. I tend to put most weight on Charles's obituary because he is provably connected with the caves as an early explorer and guide, so one would think his family would be the most likely to know what really happened. Kerry (talk) 22:16, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi. Apologies for the delay in responding. That all sounds great. The proposed replacement text (and rationale) sounds good to me. Certainly better than the existing definitive (and non-inclusive) copy. Do you want to include - or will I? Guliolopez (talk) 18:16, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

More than happy for you to do it. The Jenolan Caves aren't a topic of special interest to me (not even sure how it got on my watchlist).Kerry (talk) 20:56, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

 Done thanks Guliolopez (talk) 17:06, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for that! Kerry (talk) 00:19, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Jenolan Caves/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Needs more in-line refs.--Grahamec 04:07, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 11:36, 2 November 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 19:46, 29 April 2016 (UTC)