Talk:Jack of plate

Undoing redirect

Says the article:

The jack is similar to the brigandine, the main difference is in the method of construction: a brigandine is riveted whereas a jack is sewn.

So there is no justafiable reason why this article should be redirected to brigandine. Please leave me a message on my talk page if you have any objections. Thanks, Airplaneman (talk) 23:32, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

It's the same basic idea: a cloth jacket reinforced with metal plates. I propose a merge with Brigandine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.245.96.55 (talk) 23:50, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

• The result of this discussion was no consensus to merge. Northamerica1000^(talk) 12:12, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

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No. The two types may be similar, but they are distinct and from different periods. Gaius Cornelius (talk) 08:34, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

They're identical. Read the description (sewn or riveted). The only difference is the name ("Jack" being a late-medieval word for jacket). This article would be better if it was part of something bigger as at the moment it consists of just a couple of sentences and images with no references. Perhaps put it in one of the later paragraphs of coat of plates as "later developments" or "similar armor" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.13.228.132 (talk) 16:36, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Hello. The two are completely different. They are even from different time periods! Please help expand it if it is too short for your liking. Thanks, Airplaneman (talk) 20:30, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Please give some evidence to back up your claim they are different. Both consist of steel plates sewn (or riveted in the case of the brigandine) to a cloth or leather jerkin. And the coat of plates was used well into the 16th century so your claim they were from different periods is unfounded. The only difference I see is the name.

The construction is indeed similar, it may even be identical, but focusing on similarities of construction is to miss the point. This article describes a type of armour that has a particular historical context and it should no more be merged with coat of plates than lorica segmentata should be merged with plate armour. The difference is more subtle in this instance, of course. I am not an expert on armour, but as I understand it coat of plates historically preceeds plate armour and is transitional towards it; whereas, jack of Plate is later and part of a transition away from plate armour. That is a very fundemental difference that would only be confused by meging the two articles. On the other hand, it would be very helpful to make the distinction and the reasons for it clear in the articles in question. Gaius Cornelius (talk) 13:33, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. It is like merging the Airbus A320 family with the Boeing 737 family. They are the same basic concepts, but they have design differences and are made by different companies. I'll see what I can do to help distinguish the two, but they do not qualify for a merge. I'm quite busy in real life right now, but I'll see what can be done. Anyone can help, too! Thanks, Airplaneman (talk) 14:11, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

These types of armor are not unique to a particular manufacturer or country. By contrast the English were known to use both and incorporate plates from damaged brigandines into jacks. So your argument is invalid Airplaneman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.1.196.91 (talk) 18:52, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Unless you have evidence to support your claims I support the merge with either coat of plates or brigandine. As an expert on armor I can tell you that the coat of plates was indeed a transition to plate armor. But the Jack of plates developed from the coat of plates so it would make more sense to redirect it there.

I have to agree that these two should not be merged. These two are evolutionarily distinct armours, differing in almost every relevant detail. They appear in totally different contexts (in terms of date and location) for different reasons and they share almost no aesthetic characteristics, construction methods, or usage. They are alike only in the sense that they both have metal pieces attached to a fabric or leather backing. The two armours are linked through evolutionary change, with the coat of plates being the predecessor to almost all medieval plate armours, but I agree that it would do a disservice to readers to merge to two articles. These two armours are as similar as cars are to school buses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.88.30.172 (talk) 11:48, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Personally, i think these two should be merged, in the same way a school bus could be incorporated into a larger article on buses or public transport. It would be easier for readers to understand both their evolution and visual differences if the brigandine, coat of plates and jack were part of a single, larger article — Preceding unsigned comment added by Osama57 (talk • contribs) 00:53, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A jack of plates is only one late kind of jack

According to Thom Richardson, in Veronica Fiorato et al. 2007, Blood Red Roses: The Archaeology of a Mass Grave from the Battle of Towton, p. 144, "during this early period [late fourtheenth and fifteenth centuries] it took the form of a quilted doublet composed of many layers of fabric or leather, sometimes stuffed with tow." 72.66.33.206 (talk) 05:16, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

So what about the description of the jack of plate in this article is dubious? The only objection you seem to have is against the term "jack" being used interchangeably with "jack of plate". In that case, the tags are misleadingly placed. 72.200.151.13 (talk) 06:02, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I removed the tags this user placed but added one after the first use of "jack" as a synonym for this piece of armor. It's still ugly, but this seems like a good point to me. Does anyone object to striking "jack" as a synonym for this particular piece of armor? Or would it be better to mention that "jack" is used this way, but it may also be used in the way this user suggested? 72.200.151.13 (talk) 00:03, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Another merge proposal

This page and Coat of plates seem to describe the same object; they both include the same image of the same artifact. Note that coat of plates is not brigandine. The other article seems to have more detail, and has all of the information in this one, so I suggest redirecting this one there. ‎Unsigned comment added by Collabi (talk) 11:10, 12 March 2013

Gaius Cornelius made a cogent argument against merging in the previous discussion (see above), but unfortunately none of that information is indicated anywhere in the article's content. Maintaining separate articles may be appropriate, but a rewrite of this article may be necessary in order to indicate just what is different between the two, else I would anticipate the merge proposals to keep coming in from time to time. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 04:54, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

I move to drop the proposal to merge this article with coat of plates. Jack of Plates is a different object, as stated in the last merger proposal, and should be given its own article. I'll remove text related to this article from the coat of plates-article and redirect here Oslomin (talk) 13:38, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

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