Talk:Ice climbing

Distinction between solo ice climbing and free soloing.

There needs to be some revisions to the article to reflect the fact that using ice axes and other mixed route climbing equipment to climb alpine/ice routes without ropes is not free soloing. It's been misused a fair amount since the film came out, but by definition, you are not free soloing.

Would it be best to add a section highlighting the distinction and the similarities between the two methods (risks etc.)? 82.0.12.118 (talk) 15:08, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes it is, and has been for decades. i.e. [1]. Aszx5000 (talk) 15:41, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Remember, there ice climbing can be done as rope solo climbing and free solo climbing. Solo climbing is not the "ice climbing" term for "free solo climbing". Again per Top Young Alpinist Dies Free Soloing. Aszx5000 (talk) 15:51, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

If you read the actual article you'll see he was climbing the south face of Scharnitzspitz, in May. That route is a rock route at that time of year, it's why the grade is given a rock climbing grade and not a mixed grade (VII/5.10+) 82.0.12.118 (talk) 16:09, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

And climbing magazine itself has been largely terrible on these things. I'm happy if you want to add a section on it being a matter of debate in the community if you like. 82.0.12.118 (talk) 16:14, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

See;

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/climber-frozen-waterfall-ropes-beta-block-super-dani-arnold-kandersteg-switzerland-mountaineering-a8184891.html

It's a solo, not a free solo. Free soloing literally means to free climb something solo without protection. You wouldn't call dry tooling free climbing would you? 82.0.12.118 (talk) 16:12, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

That is the The Independent which is not a climbing publication. These are examples of major climbing publications who call it free solo: Planet Mountain with Dani Arnold, The Alpinist (the highest grade publication in climbing) with Guy Lacelle, Climbing Magazine. Even other major non-climbing publications use it such as The Guardian 'Free solo' ice climber killed in Montana avalanche. Here is one of the world's most famous ice climbers, Dave MacLeod on ther own website calling it free solo ice climbing. Aszx5000 (talk) 16:29, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

The Independent is not, but climbing magazine is not a respectable publication.

Here are the UKClimbing article on Dave's solo of the Orion wall.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/categories/winter+alpine/dave_macleod_soloing_orion_face_direct_on_ben_nevis-5792

Spot the difference between that and the "Gripped" article which is just engagement farming.

https://gripped.com/video/watch-bold-free-solo-up-famous-icy-scottish-north-face/

> Here is one of the world's most famous ice climbers, Dave MacLeod on ther own website calling it free solo ice climbing

Which ice climb do you think he calls a free solo there? Because "Solo on The Curtain", "Life is on Ice" (Soloing Moonwalk IV,4 on Ben Nevis on a perfect day.) and "Soloing the Orion Face on Ben Nevis" are all explicitly only called soloing by him. 82.0.12.118 (talk) 16:39, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

MacLeod's blog explicitly says: "Ben Nevis, free solo, ice climbing, winter climbing"? Wikipedia goes on what the main realiable sources say, and per above (and even Dave), they call it free solo climbing (as per other disciplines). Aszx5000 (talk) 16:43, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

You're looking at tags for articles which are used to curate content to attract audience. Please look at the actual titles of the articles with those tags and which ones say only "solo" and which say "free solo". It's very clearly split between ice routes and rock routes.

You can see both from the title of the articles, the captions and even the youtube videos themselves (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5Gcp8hXoPA) and the narration that they're referred to exclusively as solos, not free solos. Which isn't the case for his ropeless ascents on rock which he explicitly calls free solos. 82.0.12.118 (talk) 16:54, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I have already shown you lots of WP:NCLIMBER sources that explicitly use free solo ice climbing, as well as your own example - Dave MacLeod - that you laid out as an example of only using solo climbing, using the term "free solo ice climbing". That is the WP:COMMONTERM for this. Aszx5000 (talk) 16:57, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

> as well as your own example - Dave MacLeod

I feel like this is a bit disingenuous since I've already pointed out you're not actually looking at the articles, just the tags used to create content.

You must have actually read the articles with that tag and noticed the distinction between what he actually calls free solos and what he calls solos.

And my issue is not with the use of the term "free solo ice climbing", which would be fine if it was consistently applied and not mistaken with "free solo climbing". They are different things. 82.0.12.118 (talk) 17:11, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

That is being selective. This is his blog and they are his terms. What Dave MacLeod calls something does not define a term in climbing, however, even in this example, you can see that he uses the term "free solo ice climbing". Aszx5000 (talk) 17:18, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

"you can see that he uses the term free solo ice climbing"

He doesn't. You are literally taking 2 tags with a comma in between them and condensing them.

You'll also see he uses the tag 'winter climbing', despite explicitly stating the Orion climb was on a perfect spring day. It's a tag used to curate viewers to content. 82.0.12.118 (talk) 17:23, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

If you found a quality source (magazine from WP:NCLIMBER or a climbing book) that says that in ice climbing, the free solo climbing is also known as "solo climbing", then we could add that distinction, but it would have to be a good source and not our own point of view. I would certainly look at it for you. thanks. Aszx5000 (talk) 16:39, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Just to be clear I'm not talking about free soloing, free soloing on rock is actual free soloing. It's sometimes called soloing for shorthand, there's nothing to change in that regard.

You can see from the UKclimbing article, climbing with tools is not considered free soloing here, although maybe there's some major country specific distinction going on. 82.0.12.118 (talk) 16:50, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

You are ignoring all the sources above that explicitly use "free solo ice climbing". I can find lots of rock-climbing sources that also use "solo climbing" when they refer to "free solo climbing", however, the WP:COMMONNAME is free solo climbing. Same as per ice climbing. Aszx5000 (talk) 16:58, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

As I said, I have no issue with the term "free solo ice climbing" being used consistently as long as it's not mixed up with and presented in a way which could be misconstrued as free soloing. 82.0.12.118 (talk) 17:14, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

When in an ice climber only climbs with their ice tools and crampons, that is free solo climbing (per all the sources above). If they add protection, then they are rope-solo ice climbing, and there are other variations. By definition, in rock climbing and in ice climbing, all free solo climbers are solo climbers. but they are a distinct sub-set to seperate them from the ones using protection gear. Aszx5000 (talk) 17:20, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

There are also distinct definitions to separate those who use aid and those who don't.

If you pull on bolts and other fixed aid pieces to climb a route without a rope you are not free soloing. You are just soloing. Because you're not climbing free.

Ice climbing isn't free climbing because it uses aid (naturally, as you cannot get up ice without it). 82.0.12.118 (talk) 17:34, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Hell, we haven't even discussed rope solo climbing that is also done in ice climbing per Ice Climbing Rope Solo Adventure Switzerland but that is for another day :) Aszx5000 (talk) 17:00, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Why would we discuss rope soloing? Rope soloing is not free soloing. 82.0.12.118 (talk) 17:13, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

It is not free soloing, but it is solo climbing, which again goes to why climbing uses "free solo climbing" yo distinguise other types of "solo climbing", of which rope-solo ice climbing is one. Aszx5000 (talk) 17:17, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

That's exactly the point I'm making. Rope soloing, like free soloing has a specific meaning. You can't rope solo without a rope and you can't free solo without free climbing. 82.0.12.118 (talk) 17:26, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

https://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13199100602

https://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201213046/Fall-on-Ice-Climbing-Alone-and-Unroped

https://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201001400/Fall-on-Ice-Solo-Climbing-British-Columbia-Canadian-Rockies-Haffner-Creek

Here are a list of the American Alpine club sources which use soloing or ice soloing for ropeless ice climbing. 82.0.12.118 (talk) 17:39, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

This whole section is nonsense. Free solo climbing is also the term for ice climbing - not solo climbing. I could be solo climbing on an ice climb but still using pieces of protection or even aid to help me. That is why we also call it free solo climbing in the ice world. 31.187.2.129 (talk) 17:14, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

https://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13199100602

No, the "free" in "free soloing" doesn't refer to the lack of protection. It refers to 'free' climbing without aid. You are using aid to help you when you climb on ice (unless you can remarkably climb ice without ice axes).

You can solo with or without protections, and with or without aid. Without protections and without aid is free soloing. Ice climbing without a rope falls into the "no protection and aid" category. 82.0.12.118 (talk) 17:21, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Actually - it refers to both. Free-soloing mean no protectio and no aid. If you have no aid but are using protection, then you are rope solo climbing and not free-solo climbing. Aszx5000 (talk) 17:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Free soloing the term does, but the "free" explicitly references free climbing. It's in the dictionary now after all!

'a climb in which a climber uses no artificial aids for support and has no rope or other safety equipment for protection in case of a fall'

You have to question how many people are born with ice axes. It's the reason we don't have an ice section in https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Free_climbing 82.0.12.118 (talk) 17:29, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Per myself, the extensive sources provided, the existing article, and even the IP above, the common name for ice climbing without any protection is free solo climbing (as per rock climbing). Where protection is used, it is solo climbing (or more correctly, rope solo climbing). That is the consensus. Your interpritation is a personal one. 19:54, 25 October 2024 (UTC) Aszx5000 (talk) 19:54, 25 October 2024 (UTC)