Talk:House of Nobility (Sweden)

Untitled

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no move Patstuart^{(talk)(contribs)} 12:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Support The correct name of the palace is the Swedish House of Nobility, the same term is used both for the palace itself and for the nobility as a collective organ. Teuton 19:48, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose the requested move. Not sufficient evidence to support such new name. Suedois 00:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Incoherent ramblings on other RMs written by the requester here have had me doubt that the requester possibly does not know anything about article naming conventions here. Suedois 00:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Just take a look at Suedoise's discussion page and you may note this is not the first time she is deviating from the subject and makes personal attacks. The evidence can easily be retrieved from the Swedish House of Nobility. Call them annd check facts rather than oppose just for the sake of disagreeing. Teuton 18:58, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

the merge request

We do not do merges from existing articles to forks created by cut-paste, as such circumvents the move function. Suedois 23:48, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

House of Lords

In ancient official English document of the Swedish Riksdag, this part of the Parliament was actually translated the House of Lords, which is in line with similar institutions such as the British "House of Lords" or the Prussian "House of Lords" in Berlin (Herrenhaus), where right to vote in Parliament was granted in hereditary order to the Lord (Herren) of the family. Terms such as "House of the Knights" were not officially used in legal documents by the Riksdag, and are as such a bit misleading as it includes a wider scope of people who are not "lords" (in particular for the situation before 1866 when the bi-cameral Parliament was established).

I should also be pointed out that the House of Lords was terminated in by 1866. Since then, it basicly relies on de facto obsolete priviliges, most of which have been offically terminated in recent years.

I would suggest that

• a separate article is created for the building named: The Riddarhuset

And, as there have been some disagreement here:

• the Parliamentary activities prior to 1866 is named: The Swedish House of Lords, or preferably: The House of Lords (Sweden)
• the activities as of 1866 be part of the article named: The Riddarhuset, or possibly another separate article named: The House of the Nobility (Sweden).

--Odengatan 08:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, you should also take into account how Riddarhuset calls itself in English. The term Swedish House of Lords is not an established one. This could be partly due to lack of corresponding use of the word "lord" in Swedish. Secondly, Riddarhuset in Swedish has two meanings, 1) the palace and 2) the first estate, ie its members. I am not in support of your move of this page to Swedish House of Lords. /Teuton 18:13, 18 April 2007 (UTC) Also, the House of Nobility was not terminated in 1866, only the political privileges. /Teuton 20:03, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Inappropriate name

The Swedish House of Knights to Swedish House of Lords. This change is very unfortunate, even worse than changing from Swedish House of Nobility to Swedish House of Knights. The term Swedish House of Nobility is used by Riddarhuset and also by its Finnish counterpart. The word Riddarhuset has two meanings: 1) the palace in Stockholm/ Helsinki, and 2) the first estate, i.e. Ridderskapet och Adeln. Neither the Swedish House of Nobility nor the Finnish House of Nobility will accept to be referred to as the House of Lords. There are no Lords in Sweden or Finland. "Lord" is an English defined term with no direct correspondence in Swedish. Your reference to old translations does not give support to your arguments as the old misleading term has been changed. The Swedish House of Nobility / Finnish House of Nobility is the established term (for loose reference use google: "Swedish House of Nobility": 321 hits; "Swedish House of Knights" 315 hits; "Swedish House of Lords": 7 hits). Teuton 12:16, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, Google search might not be the optimal way of finding Swedish legal documents from the 18th and 19th centuries. Your claim that the Swedish nobility didn't observe the function of a system of hereditary Lords seems pretty odd. I understand that Sweden until recently had special privilegies for "Lords", such as the hereditary right to the estate. I have a Swedish friend who inherited his estate thanks to that legislation only 15 years ago; a very interesting aspect of the Swedish "volkhem" model... --Camptown 22:54, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that Google is not an authoritative argument. Nevertheless, it gives an indication of the commonly used translation. Swedish House of Lords is not an established term, and practically only used in Wikipedia, due to a recent change. The Swedish House of Nobility is the established term and used by the House itself. Comparing the Swedish House of Nobility with the House of Lords gives that there is little resemblence between the two. The Swedish House of Nobility is a legal person in which all Swedish noble families are represented irrespective of whether they are or have been "Lords" or not. The House of Lords is the upper house of the parliament and is contextually different, and not even representing all of the British nobility. This is why the House of Lords as a translation - which at first glance might appear natural - has been avoided for both Sweden and Finland. /Teuton 13:29, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

A link to the homepage of the Swedish House of Nobility, where this name is used: http://www.riddarhuset.se/jsp/admin/archive/sbdocarchive/House_nobility.pdf /Teuton 20:00, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I must disagree with an allegation above. In my knowledge, Sweden certainly had lords. Namely, Sweden had throughout from earliest known medieval eras up to 1900s, "Herrar", of which the term 'mister' is certainly not a proper translation, while the term 'lord' is practically a perfect translation. I can see that some swedopohones here may have some unfounded misapprehensions of facts (perhaps they espouse a delusion that we should use the word 'Herr' here in english texts - but THAT will not happen here). When I am writing in English prose text or research report or whatever about noblemen in Finland or in Sweden, there's a clear justification to use the prefix 'lord' in suitable places where such indication is useful to show who were noble and who were not. Thus, an allegation 'there are no Lords in Sweden or Finland' is very unfounded. Marrtel (talk) 17:38, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

In the above opinion, there's an interesting claim: "...The House of Lords is the upper house of the parliament and ... not even representing all of the British nobility." - - - I am very interested in getting to know grounds and reasons for such claim. Of course it has things to do how British nobility is defined (and the definition in use for derivation of the above claim is what? and what reasons and grounds that definition has?). Please elaborate: particularly, what are those elements, parts and members of the British nobility who were not represented in the 1900s House of Lords? Marrtel (talk) 17:42, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

House of Nobility, please

First, a reply to Martell. The Swedish and British system of nobilty differs in many ways. The Swedish Nobility is a clearly defined group of families and it's members (in some cases just the headman or the headman and his oldest son). The British nobility is much more hard to define. Apart from the peerage, baronetage and knights there are esquiers, lords of the manors and feudal barons (i believe). There are also chiefs of names and arms of Scottish clans, lords by courtesy, younger sons with courtesy prefixes and so on. Which of these are noble? I wouldn't know, but I assume at least the first groups would be considered as such. Out of these only the peerage has (had) representation in the House of Lords and in their own right. So in my opinion it is very correct to say that the HOL only represents a small part of the British nobility.

I would also like oppose the idea that the germanic word "herr" is in any way comparable with the anglosaxic "lord". The word "herr" is and has not been used exclusivly by members of the first estate, the nobility but also since ancient times by the second estate, the priesthood and also by other dignitaries and commoners. That said, the vas majority of the families that are, and that have been represented in the Swedish House of Nobility belong to untitled noble families (not comital or baronial).

I can agree that the Swedish House of Nobility did resemble the House of Lords somewhat as a legaslative body until 1864. But still, there were major differences and at present they are not even comparable.

The Swedish House of Nobility represents all the Swedish Nobility consisting of a vast majority untitled noble families as a private corporation. The word lord is not analogue with anything existing in Sweden. Hence the House of Nobility should be called for what it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.181.248.5 (talk) 14:00, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

It is indeed surprising that the name of Riddarhuset is translated incorrectly. The [Swedish] House of Nobility is used by the House itself and that is the term also used by the corresponding institution in the neighboring country - the Finnish House of Nobility (based on the same legislation riddarhusordningen 1626): http://www.riddarhuset.se/jsp/index.jsp?id=2663

/Teuton (talk) 13:32, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I can only agree with all of those above who say that the article should be moved (back?) to the Swedish House of Nobility. The usage of the British term "House of Lords" is misleading, both when applied to the political first estate before 1866 and to the present corporation of the entire Swedish nobility - not to mention the fact that the latter itself uses the form "House of Nobilty" when referring to itself in English. /FredrikT (talk) 09:55, 14 August 2009 (UTC) (myself a member of the Swedish nobilty)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was done –Juliancolton | ^Talk 03:47, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

---

Swedish House of Lords → Swedish House of Nobility — [This is the English translation used by the organisation itself; also "House of lords" is misleading in a Swedish context.(One paragraph, or less)] --FredrikT (talk) 10:32, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

• Support. "Nobility" rather than "Lords" is the correct description of the coverage of this institution. Tomas e (talk) 12:13, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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