Talk:Hoćemo gusle

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Move Parsecboy (talk) 23:16, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

The names of the music albums should net be translated. Vanjagenije (talk) 19:25, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Although, upon moving the main title header from Hoćemo gusle to We Want Gusle, I attempted to briefly state the justification in my edit summary, the subject obviously requires much greater elucidation to serve as a possible guideline and point for future discussion. As most Wikipedia editors know, it has been a longtime policy to retain the original spelling of names and places rendered in the Latin alphabet, including accents, diacritics and occasional no-Latin-alphabet characters, such as letters from the Icelandic alphabet (for example, Þórður Friðjónsson). As always there are exceptions—individuals from past centuries known in English and some other other languages by their Latinized names: (Nicolaus Copernicus and variations thereof in other Western European languages, rather than Mikołaj Kopernik and variations thereof in other Slavic languages). Original place names are generally retained except for major world cities and other key geographical designations which have traditional names in each language. Myriad discussions on talk pages of various locations present arguments for the use of local or traditional names (Talk:Kraków, especially the archived section, with arguments for the retention of the long-used English form, Cracow). There are also orthographic disagreements over Tbilisi/Tiflis, Mumbai/Bombay, Beijing/Peking and numerous other designations, as well as political disputes over name usage, perhaps best exemplified by Macedonia naming dispute which, as in the case of issues raised in Hoćemo gusle, stems directly or indirectly from unresolved matters inherent in the breakup of Yugoslavia.

Various components of the Manual of Style set out consensus points on these issues. Among them are List of alternative country names, List of country names in various languages, Names of European cities in different languages, Help:Page name, Wikipedia:Naming conflict, Wikipedia:Naming conventions and its subdivisions Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people), Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names), Wikipedia:Naming conventions (operas) and particularly Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). In discussing the specific topic in question, the name of a work of art, the primary guidelines appear in Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Use the most easily recognized name and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English): "Use the most commonly used English version of the name of the subject as the title of the article, as you would find it in verifiable reliable sources (for example other encyclopedias and reference works)". This must be understood as requiring the main title header to state literal English translation of titles for which no standard or well-known English-language appellations exist. Redirects, of course will still enable editors to find the work in question via its original title. Although this is the English Wikipedia, exceptions are made for some, but not the majority, of titles in the five most-commonly used Western European languages, German, French, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish. Rare exceptions are also made for well-known titles in Japanese and other non-Western languages.

Works of art, in a wide definition, include novels, plays, poems, works of non-fiction, operas, songs, music albums, paintings, sculptures and myriad subcategories thereof. Only Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera formulated naming conventions stating, specifically, "The name of the opera should be in its original language except:

• When the opera is commonly known in English-speaking nations by another title (i.e. The Marriage of Figaro).
• When the opera's full original title is widely known in an abbreviated form (i.e. I Lombardi).
• If the opera's title is rendered in its original language, capitalization should follow the usage in the most recent editions of New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians and New Grove Dictionary of Opera.
• If the opera's title is rendered in English, use standard English usage."

The "original language" indication, it should be noted, applies primarily to German, French and Italian operas with exceptions for works in other languages, such as Russian, which use the name of a character—Boris Godunov, or Yevgeny Onegin (which is generally performed in English-speaking countries under the title which uses the protagonist's Anglicized given name, Eugene Onegin). A well-known title which does not lend itself to easy translation, Khovanshchina, is another rare example. Operas with titles in Polish, Czech, Hungarian and other languages are known almost exclusively under their English-language titles (The Haunted Manor not Straszny dwór, The Cunning Little Vixen not Příhody Lišky Bystroušky and Bluebeard's Castle not A kékszakállú herceg vára). Examples, needless to say, can always be found within Wikipedia of editors using original titles unknown to English-speaking audiences, such as Ero s onoga svijeta, as well as Szibill and Zsuzsi kisasszony, which played in New York as Sybil and Miss Springtime, respectively. These titles and a number of others should eventually be moved to English-language headers.

The titles of books, plays and films adhere to English almost entirely. The only exceptions are for easily-pronounced, well-established titles in German, French, Italian and Spanish such as Das Boot, Les Misérables/Les Miserables, La Dolce Vita and Volver. A handful of recent Spanish-language film titles such as Amores Perros and Y tu mamá también/Y tu mama tambien have also remained in their original form. As for the rest, it's The Blue Angel not Der blaue Engel, In Search of Lost Time/Remembrance of Things Past not À la recherche du temps perdu, Big Deal on Madonna Street not I soliti ignoti and The Spirit of the Beehive not El espíritu de la colmena. Another handful of classic titles in other languages includes India's Pather Panchali and Aparajito (the third film in the Apu Trilogy, Apur Sansar, however, is known in the English-speaking world as The World of Apu and should be moved to that title) and some Japanese titles such as Ugetsu, Kagemusha, Ran and Dodes'ka-den (thus rendered on film posters and in film reference books, not the Japanese transliteration, Dodesukaden, as it currently stands).

As previously stated, this is an extensive topic and more will be added in subsequent discussions. As to titles of record albums, even if the Wikipedia community were to accept WikiProject Opera's "original title" standard (no such consensus currently exists), it would still only apply to German, French, Italian and Spanish titles. The process might include Alizée's French album, Mes Courants Électriques, which the creator of Hoćemo gusle gave as an example of a foreign-title album retaining its original title, or it might not, that proposition will need to be tested to determine community consensus. However, Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Hungarian, Romanian, Dutch, Swedish, Finnish and Slavic-language titles (as well as others too numerous to mention) face an extremely high hurdle.—Roman Spinner (talk) 21:50, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

• Well, first of all, I don't see how are city names connected to the music albums' names in any way. And, second, why would Spanish or French language be better than Serbian? They are all written in Latin alphabet (Serbian is written in both Latin and Cyrillic alphabet). I don't see how are names of the foreign Operas connected to the names of the music albums? French or Italian operas have been performed in England since many centuries ago. In these times, it was usual to render their names to English. But, do you want to say that in the 1990s it was usual to render foreign music album and songs' names to English? I've never heard of something like that. Vanjagenije (talk) 15:30, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

As indicated in the first message, this subject is extremely wide and we have barely begun to uncover its surface. I have attempted to initiate discussion in formulating a broad consensus which would include every form of title and expression. A useful starting point seemed to be already-existing Manual of Style rules for appellations. Continents, numerous nations, as well as some cities, towns, villages, roads, seas, rivers, lakes, mountains, etc., have English-language names which are substantially different from local and international usage. The instructions applicable to that set of designations are helpful in developing more-specific rules. As for WikiProject Opera, it is the only arts project to set out a detailed grouping of rules dealing with foreign titles and, in the absence of Wikipedia:WikiProject Record Albums, provides a strong guideline.

As we all know, this is the English Wikipedia, thus indicating the rule Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). As regards opera, you are, of course, correct that in the English-speaking world, German, French and Italian operas have a longtime tradition of performance using original languages and titles, with some established exceptions, such as The Marriage of Figaro. Mention should also be made of the Welsh National Opera which, well-known for its linguistic stance, stages all operas, including the most-famous ones, in English. All other works of art, including the titles of some of the best-known German, French and Italian films are rendered in English. It's The Last Laugh not Der letzte Mann, The Four Hundred Blows not Les Quatre Cents Coups and Juliet of the Spirits not Giulietta degli spiriti. With rare exceptions such as Khovanshchina and titles which express the names of people and places, all other languages are translated. All of Ingmar Bergman's films (The Seventh Seal not Det sjunde inseglet), as well as great literary works by Goethe, Schiller, Balzac, Victor Hugo and many others are primarily known by their English-language titles. The same application extends not only to works of literature, but also to paintings and sculptures.

Now, specifically to your points. All languages, unfortunately, are not Wikipedically equal in this regard. Although German, French, Italian and Spanish titles as well as other aspects of their art and civilization are more ingrained in American culture than those of other languages, most of these cultural examples, other than opera titles, are still rendered in English. All other titles, in all other European languages utilizing the Latin alphabet, are entirely in English, other than exceptions for names and places, such as the Hungarian film Angi Vera. And it's still Tito and Me not Tito i ja. There are 254 Wikipedias, with over 100 of those in European languages. It would create a fairly chaotic situation if films, plays, novels, poems, songs, record albums, paintings, sculptures and other expressions of creative arts in languages from Abkhazian (Abkhazian Wikipedia—no. 225 on the list, with 143 articles) to Zealandic (Zealandic Wikipedia—no. 171 on the list, with 723 articles) start appearing in Wikipedia (Georgia, which adjoins Caucasus Mountains, claims to be a part of Europe, thus incorporating Abkhazia, otherwise the first clearly European "A" language would be Albanian). As I previously wrote, even if Wikipedia:WikiProject Record Albums is ever formed, consensus would probably only permit it to function along title-linguistic lines of WikiProject Opera, otherwise it becomes a free-for-all, with thousands of unreadable and unpronounceable (to English speakers) main title headers in Basque, Breton, Greenlandic and Icelandic.—Roman Spinner (talk) 00:25, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

• You gave some examples of Wikipedia articles that show how foreign movies' and operas' titles are translated to English. But can you give some examples to show how Music albums' names are translated? I read a lot about music albums from different countries, and I've noticed that their names are usually in their native languages. Examples include:
  • En Karusell - Swedish
  • Mutter - German
  • Dünya Yalan Söylüyor - Turkish
  • Najkrashche - Ukrainian
  • Vrisko To Logo Na Zo - Greek
  • Existir - Portuguese

All these albums, as Hoćemo gusle were sold in the United States under these, native, names, and not under English (translated) names. That is not the case with the movies, which are usually sold and marketed under translated names (in all countries, not just in the USA). So, you can't say that the naming convention should be same for movies, operas, and music albums.Vanjagenije (talk) 16:06, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

The basic rules still hold and any exceptions require consensus. And, of course, there is consensus for the many exceptions where original names are used and not their English-language translations. The most obvious ones, outside of geographical features, are governmental, business and other institutions and, even more specifically, as regards this discussion, newspapers and magazines. No one would seriously consider referring to, for instance, Bild, Le Monde, Gazeta Wyborcza and Pravda as Picture, The World, Electoral Newspaper and The Truth, respectively, simply because they are known only by their original names, or transliterated original names, and would be unrecognizable under any other appellation.

This leads to the basic point you raised. Many countries have cosmopolitan distribution centers and tourist areas where foreign-language books, newspapers, magazines, CDs, DVDs, food items and many other imported things are sold under original names and with original text. Immigrant neighborhoods have many such stores and even movie theaters where foreign films are shown without dubbing or subtitles. As globalization engulfs more and more countries, such examples will multiply manifold. All of those foreign items, however, do not, for the most part, enter into the cultural mainstream and are generally treated as if they were still part of the country in which they originated. Specific to our discussion are music stores which sell imported foreign recordings and DVDs of foreign films. As long as they are sold in those specialized locations, they are likely to be referred by their original names and bought by a specialized customer base. The situation changes if they are picked up by a mainstream distributor in an English-speaking country and marketed to the general audience. I don't know how many foreign-language singles and album titles have been added to the English Wikipedia, but each must be judged on its own merits. Just a glance at the six titles which you provided immediately suggests that while the short, easily-pronounceable titles without diacritics, Mutter and Existir, would probably remain in their original form since German and Portuguese languages are well-ingrained in American culture, titles such as Dünya Yalan Söylüyor, Najkrashche and Vrisko To Logo Na Zo would be completely unacceptable because of their complex and unpronounceable (to most English speakers) form.

Even with the entertainment industry being as globalized as it is now, there is also no indication that any of those singles, albums or artists (with the exception of the Swedish "En Karusell") has been signed by an English-language local marketer or picked up for general distribution within an English-speaking country. As for En Karusell, it should be moved to "Merry-Go-Round", since that is the name under which it was released in English-speaking countries. In fact, virtually all ABBA songs had English-language titles or English-language equivalents. All of Jacques Brel's songs also had English title equivalents (English Wikipedia even has separate articles for "Ne Me Quitte Pas" (well-known under its French title) and its American version, "If You Go Away"). A somewhat more difficult and obscure (in English-speaking countries) French title such as the one you brought up, Mes Courants Électriques will need to be tested to see if it requires an English-language main header or can pass Wikipedia's community consensus under its original title.

In perspective, unless there is a clear consensus that all foreign-language albums should have main title headers in the original language (unlikely, since even the most far-reaching example, WikiProject Opera, stopped at German, French and Italian), most album title headers will still need to be translated into English. Anyone typing Hoćemo gusle will, of course, still be able to access it via the redirect, as is the case with most foreign titles. The titles within the above messages which appear in red, do not yet have such redirects, but will, eventually. Needless to say, Hoćemo gusle was not specifically singled out for the move to an English-language title, while titles such as Dünya Yalan Söylüyor and Vrisko To Logo Na Zo have been allowed to remain in their original form. All such titles should and will be moved and as new ones are discovered, those too will be examined and considered on their merits.—Roman Spinner (talk) 20:03, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Support per WP:OR (no original research), WP:ALBUM ("The article name should be the title of the album"), and WP:UCN (use common names). Album articles are at the title of the albums, not at a translation of the title. Wikipedia doesn't allow for editors to unilaterally translate titles of any works with prior establishment of usage on the album itself. See this external link for typical usage. User:Roman Spinner's arguments apply to operas and works of music but not albums. The following other Rambo Amadeus album should also be considered with this request:

• Psychological Propaganda Set M-91

I will request further input at Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums too. — AjaxSmack 02:55, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Support per AjaxSmack. It doesn't make sense to me. (a) If we translate album titles, next logical step would be to also translate each song title on the album, and it would never end. (b) It would supposedly raise endless "article move wars" as editors wouldn't be able to agree on the "best" translation of a title. (c) Cross-referencing over the different language Wikipedia's would become extremely tedious. (d) I don't think we would ever be able to agree on the languages that would have the "right" to remain in their own language. I could for example argue that album titles in Afrikaans would not need translation as it is widely understood in an English speaking country - South Africa. (e) An ill-meaning editor would be able to claim that Værsgo translates to "springroll" and move the article to that name, and it would take a Dane like me to come around and figure out that this is utter nonsense. Those are just a few arguments from the top of my head. – IbLeo (talk) 21:40, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

May I add that the issue has already been discussed here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Albums/Archive_24#Song_titles_in_foreign_languages. I quote what seems to be the consensus of the discussion: "There are three forms for any foreign-language title. Original language (200 по встречной), transliteration (200 Po Vstrechnoy) and translation (200 [km/h] Against the Traffic). The article name should be the transliteration. This is because in the English-language Wikipedia, we can't use non-Latin characters. Also, the translation is not strictly accurate. The original-form should (must) appear in the opening line of the article. The translated version should appear in the article as well, but this is not mandatory, it's just a good idea for informational purposes." – IbLeo (talk) 22:15, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Hidden away, and missorted too

Why is this article missorted in its categories?

While this might be understandable in the general course of articles, it is totally unacceptable for a name which results from a requested move. What can we do to ensure that the people making moves in accordance with requests are aware of the need to do things like this?

Fix it. Gene Nygaard (talk) 14:23, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

As far as I can see, this article only belongs to one (existing) category, Category:1989 albums and it is well listed under the letter "H". Maybe I am being thick - but what's the problem? – IbLeo (talk) 20:38, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Only a whole bunch of articles out of place--we don't just jumble everything starting with H together in one big heap, do we? We sort by more than the first letter. Someone did fix it, of course. Gene Nygaard (talk) 20:53, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

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