Talk:Herzegovina uprising (1875–1877)/Archive 1
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Gavrilo Princip
Gavrilo Princip was a Bosnianserb. Did he ever say that he was for Serbia or a nationalist? What i know is that Serbs claims that he was a Serbian nationalist but did he ever say that he was a Serb. Give me some facts if its true that he said he was a nationalist or Serbian i would appreciate it. And if someone do not answer i will edit and put Bosnianserb and not Serb.
Untitled
Where are the evidence that bosnian catholics and orthodox called themselves serbs and croats? This trend is something that started at the beginning of 19th century, until someone proves me wrong i will edit this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.227.114.147 (talk) 08:28, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
False, Herzegovina Uprising, has nothing with term "pučki-ustaša" because origin of that name is after Kvaternik's Uprising (or Rakovica Uprising!) in year 1871.
It was fights between orthodox Bosnians and Muslims since 1804 (first serbian uspring) with the target, that Bosnia and Hercegowina will be part of a serbian national state. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.112.251.67 (talk) 23:57, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
'Austria-Hungary was also given the right to occupy those provinces, but did not do so until 1908.'
Indeed Austria-Hungary was given the right to occupy Bosnia and Herzegovina, but Austria-Hungary actually did it in 1878. In 1908 Austria-Hungary annexed those provinces, but had no permission to do it (Bosnian crisis). --Arturius001 (talk) 20:58, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
Croatization of the uprising
I reverted WP:UNDUE addition (diff) which attempts to advance Croatian POV and present this uprising as Croat uprising, although there is consensus of the mainstream historical works that this uprising was uprising of Serbs in Herzegovina. The only quote presented to support this Croatian uprising hypothesis was from work of Don Ivica Puljić which is insufficient to make revision of the mainstream supported main context. It is necessary to keep in mind that a substantial population of Dubrovnik and its surroundings were Catholic Serbs at the time of the event, well before they were forcibly Croatized in the 20th century. Attempts to present eventual participation of Catholics in the uprising as participation of the Croats, cited by works of Catholic clergy and scholars that parrot it should be taken with a big grain of salt. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:34, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
- As far as I know, Serb Catholics are theses promoted by great Serbian ideologues. So I don't know if this is some kind of provocation? In any case, if you continue with provocations I will report you. As for my edits, they are according to reliable sources. Ivica Puljić is historian which deals with this issue and his works are not disputed. We also have and foreign sources for Gabela area. Noel Malcolm does not mention the Serb rebels in Herzegovina, he mentions Catholics and Orthodox rebels. Richard C. Hall also mentions Catholic and Orthodox Christians. Mikola22 (talk) 11:06, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
- In that case - you do not know very well. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 11:51, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
- Mikola22 Do you have any other source except work of Don Puljić for the exceptional claim that
Croat Catholic population ... started Herzegovina uprising
which goal was the unification of Bosnia and Herzegovina with Serbia and Montenegro?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:01, 10 August 2020 (UTC)- "Croat Catholic population", for this information I put an additional source as confirmation, see article. For information "which goal was the unification of Bosnia and Herzegovina with Serbia and Montenegro?" I did not notice this information nor did I put it in the article. I do not know from whom is this information, if is from Ivica Puljić I don't know what this information has to do with my information "Croat Catholic population" which is confirmed with another source. Therefore my edits have been confirmed from multiple sources and I must return this informations to the article. You know which options are available to dispute this sources. Information which I edit are confirmed with quality sources and we must respect that. Mikola22 (talk) 12:31, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
- The quote you added says
The last important such conflict was the so-called Herzegovina Uprising of Orthodox Christians (Serbs/Montenegrins) and partially also Catholic Christians (Croats) in 1875, which spread to Bosnia
. - The assertion you cited with this quote is:
Croat Catholic population ... started Herzegovina uprising
.
- The quote you added says
- Conclusion: you misinterpreted source and do not have any other source which supports your exceptional claim that
Croat Catholic population ... started Herzegovina uprising
. Maybe you should double-check the source you used and if it actually points to Croat Orthodox population of Herzegovina? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:48, 10 August 2020 (UTC)- You can't remove all sourced informations with the claim that they are actually Catholic Serbs and that Croats do not exist in that area. Ivica Puljić says that "Croat Catholic population ... started Herzegovina uprising". If fact "started" is problem then say it, you stated that they are Catholic Serbs. If Noel Malcolm and Richard C. Hall say that beginning of Herzegovina uprising is in Gabela I don't know why it's weird that Ivica Puljić says "Croat Catholic population started Herzegovina uprising"? Croats are from Gabela. If this is the problem then start a discussion about it or edit information in accordance with the rules of Wikipedia. Don't delete well sourced informations with claim that Croats are Catholic Serbs. Mikola22 (talk) 13:28, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
- "Croat Catholic population", for this information I put an additional source as confirmation, see article. For information "which goal was the unification of Bosnia and Herzegovina with Serbia and Montenegro?" I did not notice this information nor did I put it in the article. I do not know from whom is this information, if is from Ivica Puljić I don't know what this information has to do with my information "Croat Catholic population" which is confirmed with another source. Therefore my edits have been confirmed from multiple sources and I must return this informations to the article. You know which options are available to dispute this sources. Information which I edit are confirmed with quality sources and we must respect that. Mikola22 (talk) 12:31, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
- Mikola22 Do you have any other source except work of Don Puljić for the exceptional claim that
- In that case - you do not know very well. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 11:51, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
Montenegrization of the uprising
With this diff Mikola22 inserted the assertion about uprising being led by ethnic Montenegrins. The first mention of ethnic Montenegrins was at Communist congress in 20th century, so this kind of retrospective ethnicization of past events is incorrect and POV. I will revert it.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:52, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
- When I put information in an article I must follow Wikipedia rules. If the source mentions and Montenegrins, I can't skip it. You have WP:FT. Otherwise Montenegro is a few meters from Herzegovina and I don't know what should be weird about Montenegrin participation in uprising. Mikola22 (talk) 13:36, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
- Mikola22, I easily caught you with just another source misinterpretation. You inserted the assertion about the participation of ethnic Montenegrins in this uprising while the quote you used does not mention ethnic Montenegrins. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:01, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
- You easily caught me? The source does not mention ethnic Serbs also. Ethnic Serbs are not mentioned and by Noel Malcolm or Richard C. Hall. Sima Ćirković also does not mention Serbs or ethnic Serbs. Mikola22 (talk) 19:19, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, I easily caught you. Instead to acknowledge the issue you create you retorted to red herring fallacy. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:27, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
- You have two Academics and two additional sources who do not mention ethnic Serbs as part of Herzegovina uprising (1875-1877) ie you have information in the article which is WP:OR. Is it clearer to you now? Why Serbian and English Academic do not write that they were Serbs? There are probably no original historical documents which prove this. From where did the Serbs from Herzegovina and article come from? Which sources from the article confirm this? Mikola22 (talk) 20:00, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
- The entire book by Ćirković is about Serbs, of course he talks about them. Noel Malcolm is a controversial author, often criticized for bias in Serb-related topics.--WEBDuB (talk) 20:17, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
- And what this should mean? He also writes about neighboring countries and we are not all Serbs because Ćirković mentioned (Bulgaria, Hungary, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Albania) in his book. He does not mention that rebels in Herzegovina upraising are the Serbs. We cannot on the basis of the title and content of the book draw own conclusions, it is OR. Mikola22 (talk) 07:30, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
- He writes about Serbs and their relations with other nations. You also quoted Ković, who calls the whole uprising Serbian. This event and its legacy is primarily associated with Serbs according to most sources. We can emphasize that it was an uprising of the Christian population in the Ottoman Empire, but primarily of Serbs.--WEBDuB (talk) 10:02, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
- And what this should mean? He also writes about neighboring countries and we are not all Serbs because Ćirković mentioned (Bulgaria, Hungary, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Albania) in his book. He does not mention that rebels in Herzegovina upraising are the Serbs. We cannot on the basis of the title and content of the book draw own conclusions, it is OR. Mikola22 (talk) 07:30, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
- The entire book by Ćirković is about Serbs, of course he talks about them. Noel Malcolm is a controversial author, often criticized for bias in Serb-related topics.--WEBDuB (talk) 20:17, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
- You have two Academics and two additional sources who do not mention ethnic Serbs as part of Herzegovina uprising (1875-1877) ie you have information in the article which is WP:OR. Is it clearer to you now? Why Serbian and English Academic do not write that they were Serbs? There are probably no original historical documents which prove this. From where did the Serbs from Herzegovina and article come from? Which sources from the article confirm this? Mikola22 (talk) 20:00, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, I easily caught you. Instead to acknowledge the issue you create you retorted to red herring fallacy. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:27, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
- You easily caught me? The source does not mention ethnic Serbs also. Ethnic Serbs are not mentioned and by Noel Malcolm or Richard C. Hall. Sima Ćirković also does not mention Serbs or ethnic Serbs. Mikola22 (talk) 19:19, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
- Mikola22, I easily caught you with just another source misinterpretation. You inserted the assertion about the participation of ethnic Montenegrins in this uprising while the quote you used does not mention ethnic Montenegrins. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:01, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
Primary source
This source "Travels in the Slavonic Provinces of Turkey-In-Europe (Vols. I and II) by Adelina P Irby, G Muir MacKenzie (Paperback / softback, 2010)" is a travel journal from mid-1800s and article has a lot of information from that source. Since the use of this source violates the Wikipedia policy WP:PRIMARY, I suggest deleting this source and all informations based on that source. Mikola22 (talk) 20:24, 10 August 2020 (UTC)