Talk:Hensley Henson

A few early thoughts

I am reading this with interest and pleasure. Here are a few thoughts on the early sections:

• Early years: There's a shortage of date/year information between 1873 and 1884. It would be helpful to know when Henson ran away from school, the dates of his schoolmastering in Brigg, and the date be began his ex-collegiate studies. Do we know how he supported himself during these studies – did he continue teaching at Brigg?
• All Souls: There is something of a lacuna in the account of Henson's ordination. At what point was he confirmed into the Anglican Church? This would have been essential before his acceptance for ordination training. And, where did this trainng take place, and under whose supervision?
• Westminster

• I'd refer to Williams as "his eventual successor as Bishop of Durham (the succession is in the distant future), and add a comma after "Williams"
• Date range 1870–49 needs clarifying
• I don't want to be a spoilsport, but the story of Asquith suggesting Henson as Archbishop of York in 1908 seems more than "probably" apocryphal. Henson had held no position in the Church higher than canon. When Lang got the job, he has been a suffragen bishop for seven years, and the scale of promotion was still treated as startling. Also, I don't really understand the point of the king's reply, but perhaps my mind lacks subtlety. If the story is kept, I'd certainly alter "probably" to "certainly".

• Dean and bishop

• Why does "Socialism" have a capital?
• Did he write "Mombassa" rather than "Mombasa"? If so, must be worth a sic.

I will read on. Brianboulton (talk) 22:29, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

All very much ad rem, and all acted on. Thank you very much. Tim riley talk 10:30, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

• Dean and bishop (continued)

• "A serious doctrinal row within the Church seemed to many to put Henson out of the running for elevation to the bishopric". What bishopric was he in line for? If you mean generally rather than to a specific post, it should be "a bishopric"

• Durham

• "what Grimley calls" is a form previously used, and might be tweaked to something else?
• "For the same reason he was against public spending on social welfare." The "same reason" presumably meaning "negation of individuality". This seems a somewhat harsh and Tory, like saying to a starving family: "You must work out your own salvation". I would like to think he had a more positive message than that.

I really can't find much else to add. It's a very neat summary of the great (?) man's career. I still would like to know the details of his ordination process – maybe it's covered in that ominous-sounding autobiography, which I suppose would need to be read, or at least looked at, if the article were to aspire to FAC. The 3-volume edition cost £10 plus postage on ABE – I'm almost tempted. (You, of course, have the British Library at your disposal). Brianboulton (talk) 23:07, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Added thought: I think that Henson's hostility to the 1936 Jarrow March is worth a mention. He not only denounced it, but rebuked his suffragan, the Bishop of Jarrow, for blessing the marchers, and forced the poor man to recant. Various sources available, should you need them. Brianboulton (talk) 09:43, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much for this informal peer review. All points acted on. You rather confirm my feeling that the article is not quite substantial enough for FAC, and I think I'll send it off in the direction of GAN. Tim riley talk 16:25, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Hensley Henson/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ealdgyth (talk • contribs) 15:51, 20 January 2015 (UTC) I'll be reviewing this article shortly. (After all the work I've done on the early bishops of Durham, I should probably help out with the later ones...) Ealdgyth - Talk 15:51, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, no copyvios, spelling and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

• Per CorenSearchBot - no sign of copyright violations. Random googling of three phrases shows no copyright violations, only wikipedia mirrors.
• Sources look fine.
• I've been a bit ... stricter.. than I would normally be for a GA review - I suspect he's heading towards FAC so I am trying to catch things that would be an issue at FAC also.
  • I have no FA ambitions for this article. I can't feel comfortable in going to FAC with an article for which I haven't researched every available source (and I am not going to read HH's three volumes of self-justifying memoirs) and so, as Bold Sir Brian Boulton and I agreed on the article talk page, GA seems about the right level for this. Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
    • I'd point out that you should NOT read his own writings - they'd be primary and would probably not be that useful. What you need to worry about reading is the secondary works on him - but I also work in a period that doesn't have many such primary sources written by the subjects. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:45, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
• Lead:
  • I believe you need "14" instead of "fourteen" in the lead, per WP:NUMERAL
    • You gave me a nasty shock there, but happily WP:NUMERAL allows both forms: "Integers greater than nine expressible in one or two words may be expressed either in numerals or in words (16 or sixteen, 84 or eighty-four, 200 or two hundred)". Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • "first-class degree" - link or context?
    • Done Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Link for "canon" (I suspect you want canon (priest) but that's the medievalist talking... I'm not sure enough to put it in for you)
    • Indeed, the same in HH's period as in mediaeval times. Done. Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • "block his appointment as Bishop of Hereford." when was he appointed?
    • Done
  • link for "an economic depression"? or to a specific one?
    • Done
• Early years:
  • "Matthew Grimley describes as Thomas's "bigotry"" - I don't often think of the Plymouth Bretheren as being bigots ... can we have some context here?
    • Sorry – no. That's what the source says, and the lack of a range of other sources is why I'm aiming at GA rather than FAC.
  • the quote "an enduring hatred of protestant fanaticism" needs a citation on it.
    • Done
  • As above, I believe it should be "14" instead of "Henson was fourteen before..."
    • Happily not, as mentioned above. Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • link or context for "head boy"?
    • Done Tim riley talk
  • citation on the quote "with more passion than respect"
    • Done, though this does mean two identical refs in the one sentence. Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
• All Souls:
  • As above, I believe "20" instead of "age of twenty".
    • See above – it's fine according to the MoS. (And is much more pleasing to the eye, me judice) Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • "Henson's first paper, on William II, marked..." ... there are a LOT of William II's out there, can we have a bit of context? (And if he studied "Modern History" what the heck was he doing writing on Rufus?
    • Done. To be fair, Rufus was barely 800 years earlier, so Modern by Oxonian standards. Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
• Can we have just a bit of context in the article for who William Rathbone is, so the reader doesn't have to click away?
  • Good idea. Done. Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Link for "Laymen's League for Defence of the National Church"?
    • Honestly, I can find nothing to link to. Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
• Ordination:
  • "In 1887, after being ordained deacon, he took charge of the Oxford House Settlement a high-church mission in Bethnal Green, a poor area of the East End of London." I want to stick a comma or something after "Settlement" ... it seems clumsy without something there...
    • Not merely clumsy, but ungrammatical, and now amended – thank you. My worst, or at any rate most frequent, sin in writing is to forget to add the opening or (more often) closing commas for subordinate clauses. Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Shouldn't it be "In 1888 Henson was ordained a priest.
    • I think this is fine. One can be ordained priest, crowned king, created knight etc, though adding the indefinite article wouldn't be wrong if one was so inclined. Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • I know what "in its gift" means, but 99 out of a 100 readers probably won't - context or at least a link?
    • Done. Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • "with a population of 12,000, and increasing." Strikes this yank as clumsy - perhaps "with a growing population of 12,000."?
    • Yours is smoother, but I think mine makes the point more strongly. Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • As above - believe "At twenty-five " should be "At 25"...
    • As above, it's fine according to the MoS Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Link for "St Alban's Holborn"?
    • Strangely, no. I was very surprised when writing this that there isn't one. (Being of moderate and unassuming Anglicanism myself I have no present plans to write up this OTT High Church galère.)
  • Link and context for "select preacher"?
    • No link available, and in truth I don't know the precise nuances of the term. Obviously he was selected to preach, but beyond that…. Another reason for sticking to GAN with no pretensions to FAC. Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
• Westminster:
  • link for "canon"
  • Done
  • link for "British parliament"
    • I'd put that under the category of WP:OVERLINK Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • "Henson followed predecessors, including Henry Hart Milman and Frederic Farrar, as willing as he was to court controversy" - clunky - can we rephrase?
    • Done Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Link for "Peruvian-Amazon Company"
    • None Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Link for "Putumayo atrocities"
    • None
  • Links for "Charles Gore" and "Bishop of Birmingham"
    • CG linked earlier; B of B now linked Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Link for "Congregational"
    • Done Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
• Dean:
  • Link for "synodical"?
    • Done Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Link for "Supreme Governor of the Church"?
    • Done Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Who is "Chadwick"?
    • Link moved from below to this first mention – thank you. Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Link for "The Times"?
    • Done Tim riley talk
  • Citation for "sending an armoured car into an orchard of apple trees" should probably be on this directly.
    • Done Tim riley talk
• Durham:
  • "coal in the post-war years" - should probably make it clear this is World War I, not World War II.
    • Done. Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Total aside - how the heck did a bishop (James Welldon) end up demoted to a Dean???
    • It was a colonial bishopric (Calcutta, if memory serves), which he resigned with his gaiters in a knot, and reading between the lines he was jolly lucky to follow with a British deanery. Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Let's put a citation on "a violent, almost obsessional" quote directly - given it's so far from the end of the sentence.
    • Done Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • "instituted damage limitation measures" sounds like something you do to keep your floor from buckling after a roof leak - can we rephrase?
    • That was pretty much the image I was reaching for. I was thinking of modern management-speak rather than D-I-Y, but I don't think a smooth "moved to limit the damage" would have quite the same impact. I am biddable on this point, though. Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Links for "Nazi anti-Semitism, Mussolini's invasion of Abyssinia, appeasement and the Munich agreement"?
    • Respectively: No, I don't think so (more Overlink, I'd say); done and done. Tim riley talk
• Last years:
  • "peculiar interest and vivacity" needs a citation on it.
    • Done Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Mostly good, just some small issues that need to be taken care of.

I've put the article on hold for seven days to allow folks to address the issues I've brought up. Feel free to contact me on my talk page, or here with any concerns, and let me know one of those places when the issues have been addressed. If I may suggest that you strike out, check mark, or otherwise mark the items I've detailed, that will make it possible for me to see what's been addressed, and you can keep track of what's been done and what still needs to be worked on. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:53, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Some top-notch comments there, thank you. As requested, I have indicated responses to and changes made in accordance with your suggestions. We differ on very little, as you will see. Tangentially, apropos of your mediaeval Bishops of Durham, in my past life as Librarian to the Crown Estate I used sometimes to have to tangle with documents from the days of the Prince-Bishops, written in the most impenetrable Latin, with contractions, omissions, abbreviations and much more, that would have perplexed Virgil and Horace, let alone a very modest classicist like me. Tim riley talk 23:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

All these look good. (And we won't discuss the small time period when there were actually something approaching a prince-bishop (Durham doesn't begin to approach that status, honestly in my opinion, but even the time period when it came close is a lot smaller than some folks (especially the bishops) wanted it to be....) Passing GA now. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:45, 21 January 2015 (UTC)