Talk:Hare Krishna (mantra)/Archive 2

Redirect at start

IMO this article needs something similar to

This article is about the Hare Krishna Mantra. For the Hare Krishna Religion, see ISKCON.

As many people (and as the article itself notes) think Hare Krishna is the name of the religion. Chopper Dave 03:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

If we did that it would have to say "For the Hare Krishna Religion, see Gaudiya Vaishnavism", which some people could argue as still being pov as devotees outside of the Gaudiya movement also chant Hare Krishna. But what is popularly meant by the Hare Krishnas is specifically Gaudiya devotees who are well known through their street preaching so I see your point. As it stands all these links are already included in the introduction. I'd vote to keep as is. Ys, Gouranga(UK) 09:05, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Following the above logic, shouldn't we restrict the external links to only those discussing the mantra, and remove the ISKCON links, which can already be found in the ISKCON article? Sfacets 08:29, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Links to Gaudiya organisations (including ISKCON) are still appropriate to the article, I was making the point that we shouldn't start with a disambiguation notice to the ISKCON page as had been suggested. Regards, Gouranga(UK) 20:00, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Dear Sfacets, as stated above - links to Gaudiya organisations (including ISKCON) are highly relevant to this article. The rationale behind this is that such organisations are primarily based around the practice of chanting the Hare Krishna mantra. I find it strange you removed only the Iskcon links and yet left other organisations links alone. This article takes into account the wider context of the Hare Krishna mantra, and practices and organisations associated with it. As such it makes sense to me to give links to these organisations. Ys, Gouranga(UK) 17:58, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Dear GaurangaUK, as I mentioned in my edit summary, links already exist in linked articles. The article is unbalanced at the moment, with a strong bias towards ISKCON, when this relatively small organisation, which traces it's origins to Vaishnavite roots is not the only or the most notable group to hold this mantra as central to it's philosophy. (I refer here to the large paragraph on ISKCON, as well as the disproportionately large external link section, when each of the other movements only receive a single link each). Also, why is it that you re-inserted Peacock terms that I had removed? Sfacets 18:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello Sfacets, I have amended the words you described as 'peacock' terms. The fact is that on an international basis the Hare Krishna mantra is most well-known (by far) because of it's promotion by Iskcon in the past 40 years, this is highly significant in this article. I have amended the links section, as admittedly there were one or two links which were not essential, but due to the comparative size of Iskcon do not feel it innapropriate to have a number of links alongside those of other organisations. Regards, Gouranga(UK) 12:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Order of shlokas in mantra

Can someone make sure the article states that the mantra was orignally Hare Rama then Hare Krishna in Upanishads (or was it the Bhagawat Purana?) but was changed by Gaudiya Vaishnavs and that most other Hindus stll chant the Hare Rama part first? Gizza^{Chat ©} 21:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello DaGizza - this was discussed in the archive for this page, see Talk:Hare_Krishna/Archive_1#Reversal_of_Mahamantra. The below quote from Tharikrish sums it up most clearly:

Translators have not reversed the mantra. Actually no one has reversed anything. There is only a change in word order in different recensions of Kali Santarana Upanishad. Many other Upanishads and samhitas of Vedas do have this minor changes in word order. Wikipedia article on Vedic Shakas will make it more clear. Caithanya Mahaprabhu has followed the recension of Kali Santarana Upanishad in which 'Hare Krishna' format is seen. This recension is also as orginal as the one(s) in which 'Hare Rama' format is seen (eg. One recension of Kali Santarana Upanishad) Tharikrish 17:17, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Hare Rama, ys Gouranga(UK) 18:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Meaning of the Mahamantra

It is that Raam is refering to "Radha Raman" or "the one who is giving pleasure to Radhika" and Krishna/Krishn is refering to "the one who is all-attractive" which is an esoteric understanding of the sanscrit word "krishna" which literally means black. In my understanding this mantra is a uniting mantra , representing the union of the young/divine couple (yugal kishor). Thus it is logical that Krishna is coming first in the mantra, because logically a couple first meets , feels attraction and afterwards unites.This mantra should be understood as a covered form of the Yugal Kishor Mantra of the Nimbark Sampradaya which actually is "Radhe Krishna Radhe Krishna Krishna Krishna Radhe Radhe , Radhe Shyam Radhe Shyam Shyam Shyam Radhe Radhe". However I do not no about the esoteric meaning of Shyam. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.108.117.156 (talk) 12:26, 2 January 2007 (UTC).

The popular understanding of Rama in the Maha-mantra is that it refers to Ramachandra, the King of Ayodhya. Within Gaudiya Vaishnavism the 'Rama' in the Maha-mantra is often spoken in the context of Radha-Raman, meaning Krishna, and some Gaudiya groups only accept this Krishna based context of the word Rama in the Hare Krishna mantra. However this is not the only understanding and others accept more than one context:

Krishnadasa Kaviraja Goswami is quoted as saying "yei yei rupe jane, sei taha kahe sakala sambhave krishne, kichu mithya nahe", thus if someone calls Lord Ramacandra by the vibration Hare Rama, understanding it to mean "O Lord Ramacandra!" he is quite right. Similarly, if one says that Hare Rama means "O Sri Balarama!" he is also right. "Those who are aware of the vishnu-tattva do not fight over all these details." [1]

Along the same lines A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada states in his introduction to the Chaitanya Charitamrita: "In the maha-mantra - Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare - the word "Rama" refers to Balarama. Since Lord Nityananda is Balarama, "Rama" also refers to Lord Nityananda. Thus Hare Krishna, Hare Rama addresses not only Krishna and Balarama but Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda as well."[2]

Again, from a Gaudiya perspective, Hara, which becomes Hare in its vocative case, refers to the energy or shakti of God. In the case of Krishna this would be Radha and with Lord Ramachandra it would clearly be Sita.

In regards to your second point, the Hare Krishna mantra is usually understood to originate from the Kali Santarana Upanishad. Shyam is also a name of Krishna, and both mantras have a similar meter but I am not aware of any scriptures or religious traditions which seriously promote the Yugal Kishor Mantra as a fore-runner to that of the Hare Krishna.

I'm sure there are plenty more explanations regarding the Hare Krishna mantra out there as well! Hoping to be of some help, ys, Gouranga(UK) 15:51, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Mahamantra originated from RadhaTantra a popular Tantra of that time in India which was very dear to Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Six Goswami. Rupa Goswami followed vividly the Radhatantra in bringing the identification of Sakhis and Manjaris or Srimati Radharani in Braja. Concept of Origination of Mahamantra from KaliSantran Upanishad is wrong one and not recognised by any prominent Vaishnava including Six Goswamis of Vrindavan. The mantra mentioned in Kalisantraran Upanishad is Tarak Brahma Naam which starts with "Hare Rama " and ends with "Hare Krishna" which has different objectives than Mahamantra which brings the Jiva the Prema of Srimati Radharani. Sruti can not be changed as this is Apourosheya , being Sawam Bhagavan Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu did not alter the Mantra in KaliSantran Upanishad but he instructed us about Mahamantra from Radhatanra. - Jay Nitai —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.145.136.1 (talk) 07:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

You may find the following link of interest (References to the Maha Mantra (pdf)). As stated in the article and discussions above the Kali Santaran Upanishad gives the mantra in both recensions (Hare Krishna... and Hare Rama...). Hare Krishna, ys, Gouranga(UK) 12:46, 13 February 2007 (UTC)