Talk:Hồ Chí Minh Prize

Title

I moved the article to "Ho Chi Minh Prize" and edited the article accordingly, as this Google Books search shows that reliable sources do likewise. Dohn joe (talk) 17:10, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

After being reverted without discussion - and having my post above ignored - I'm moving the article again. Please look at the Google Books search above. English-language books almost universally omit the diacritics here. And even in an overly strict interpretation of WP:UE, several sources that do use Vietnamese diacritics elsewhere do not for the prize - see here for example. Not only that, but of the dozens of Wikipedia articles with "Ho Chi Minh" in the title, this is the only one I've found that includes diacritics - see Ho Chi Minh trail, Ho Chi Minh City, Ho Chi Minh Mausoleum, Ho Chi Minh Highway, and, of course, Ho Chi Minh. Consistency with other articles is one of the factors at WP:AT. Dohn joe (talk) 16:46, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Support per WP:DIACRITICS: "The use of modified letters (such as accents or other diacritics) in article titles is neither encouraged nor discouraged; when deciding between versions of a word which differ in the use or non-use of modified letters, follow the general usage in reliable sources that are written in the English language (including other encyclopedias and reference works)." The Google Books Search link shows that there is non-use of modified letters in English-language reliable sources. Erik (talk | contribs) 17:09, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm the article creator here. Re: "and having my post above ignored" - I messaged this user, with whom I have had previous discussion about his views/edits to foreign names, on 03:55, 5 September 2012 (UTC). I'm also somewhat surprised at the timing of above:

• DJ 16:46, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
• Erik 17:09, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
• DJ 17:38, 17 September 2012 (UTC) "someone else has already seen it" - message on my talk page.

Whatever, putting the article back where it started. The above is evidently personal and WP:POINTY In ictu oculi (talk) 02:48, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Excuse me, please assume good faith. I am able to see discussions on talk pages of film articles through this link. How do you respond to the WP:DIACRITICS passage I cited? Erik (talk | contribs) 15:07, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Erik. Sorry, it's Dohn joe's timing I'm referring to, not yours. Given that Dohn joe had already had discussion on his Talk page after his first undiscussed move, why wasn't the notice "I intend to move a second time", before rather than after "I've already done it and someone else has already supported." As you can perhaps tell, I'm not massively impressed with that approach. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:02, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Alright, I understand. I had thought you were calling me a sock. :) My bad. Erik (talk | contribs) 20:20, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually my bad, I should have been clearer. (FWIW I recognised your User ID as a busy film editor). In ictu oculi (talk) 20:31, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Hồ Chí Minh Prize → Ho Chi Minh Prize – Requesting move to establish wider consensus due to contentious page moves. Dohn joe (talk · contribs) has referenced WP:UE and WP:AT for this move. I agree with these points and also mention WP:DIACRITICS. Erik (talk | contribs) 15:14, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

• Light Support Glad Erik caught this one, I also noticed that this article has had a number of contentious page moves over the past two weeks. The article Ho Chi Minh doesn't contain diacritics, and is a named well known in english without them. I couldn't find any English reliable sources that employ diacritics [1] but found a fair number that did not.[2] A couple of the sources I looked at employ diacritics in other proper names[3] but not for the prize. I am only light support because the diacritics issue a rather hot topic and there is not really a consensus on how to address the issue in a broad fashion.--Labattblueboy (talk) 16:13, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
• This is WP:POINTY. This page has been targeted by Dohn Joe because I created it. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:34, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

  Please retract this accusation, which I have already told you is not true. Dohn joe (talk) 18:17, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

  The goal of this requested move is to include outside parties so we can find consensus through Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Do you think the rationale behind the requested move is incorrect? If so, why? Erik (talk | contribs) 16:41, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

  Did someone RM an article you wrote? Hey, I know the feeling. Kauffner (talk) 05:24, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

note below In ictu oculi (talk) 07:49, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support. On Highbeam, there are 6 examples "Ho Chi Minh prize", 4 for "Ho Chi Minh award". None of these include diacritics. I note that a two-year-old VGP News story (Reference No. 4) is cited as a basis for putting diacritics in this title. Since that time, VGP has stopped using these marks and now publishes in conventional English. As for as the VietnamPlus story (Reference No. 9), that's presumably a copyediting goof. If you look at their site, it's all diacritics-free. See also VOV Online, VietnamNet, and Taus-Bolstad's Vietnam in Pictures. Kauffner (talk) 17:01, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

After the RM

Note: I don't intend to participate in this RM. Still less to deal with fiction that anyone who isn't already sickened by this topic can't check with a click.
If anyone actually wants to contribute to the article, or create new bios, they are very welcome. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:49, 19 September 2012 (UTC)wi

Interwiki

• I removed to the links to vi Wiki. I have never seen anything similar in other articles. Perhaps they were put in as a lazy way of sourcing the fact that these people's names have diacritics in Vietnamese. If so, that's very editor-oriented, something few readers are likely to be interested in. Kauffner (talk) 13:38, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

@User Kauffner

(A) The link "(vi)" or "(fr)" or "(de)" does get used in list articles, I've seen it in a composer list, perhaps not as often as it should be, in any case the links were put in because) most of the names do not have wp.en articles.

(B) The link "(vi)" is designed to be helpful to readers who want to check out individuals who don't have an English article.

(C) The normal side column interlink is insufficient because the corresponding Vietnamese page is broken up into 4 different articles: 1996, 2000, etc.

I'm restoring this. If there are other editors (others meaning others) who are vehemently opposed to the "(vi)" link, let them explain their reasoning here: In ictu oculi (talk) 02:05, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I confess I hadn't seen anything similar either, but it makes sense, seems helpful, and indeed is spelled out in Help:Interlanguage_links#Inline_interlanguage_links. Dohn joe (talk) 20:22, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Dohn Joe, thank you for adding that, I couldn't remember where it was.

There is an alternative format also at e.g. List of Baroque composers:

• Johann Groh (c. 1575–1627?) (de:Johann Groh (Komponist))

But I prefer the "(de)" inline format given at Help:Interlanguage links above which is frequently used in reverse, in de. and fr. wp inline linking back to English "(en)". In ictu oculi (talk) 02:39, 22 September 2012 (UTC)