Talk:Grover Cleveland

Restrictive / Non-Restrictive Clause

[...] the only president in American history to serve two nonconsecutive terms in office from 1885 to 1889 and from 1893 to 1897.

A COMMA (or a colon) SHOULD BE INSERTED - AFTER THE WORD "OFFICE." Otherwise, the sentence appears to be claiming that Cleveland was the only president to serve two nonconsecutive terms IN THOSE PERIODS OF TIME.

Grover Cleveland was not the 24th president

It is impossible to be both the 22nd and 24th president. Finnigami (talk) 06:05, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Is this an attempt to continue the closed discussion at Talk:List of presidents of the United States/Archive 17#Presidential Numbering: Biden is NOT the 46th President of the United States? Bruce leverett (talk) 14:54, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Except it's totally possible. Cleveland did it by getting elected to non-consecutive terms. 2401:7000:CA83:7400:E0FA:CE53:8C3B:60BA (talk) 12:30, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Image

I restored this image, which took about half-an-hour, of Cleveland which I have also nominated for a featured picture because I feel it meets that quality. However, since I don't want to edit war and get in a fight with @Drdpw, I want to discuss the images. The image I restored (left) is claimed to have worse coloring and less visual appeal.

I disagree and even if on the surface, the photo is "visually more appealing/superior", it has many issues from aging. Another issue brought up is the color of the images, and I do not like this argument as I think that B&W should not be considered the default standard. This is a carte de visite

• 
• 

Wcamp9 (talk) 01:45, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

It's interesting to compare the two. But I don't like it that I have to look for the delineation between his forehead and the background to the left of it.

Do you know of any other biographical articles whose lead images are cartes de visite? Bruce leverett (talk) 06:00, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

This is cropped, but the image is also more like a cabinet card, which a few 1800s articles have. W.E.B DuBois and W.S. Gilbert are examples Wcamp9 (talk) 20:29, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

At least I can say, looking at those two articles enabled me to see that it's normal and OK to have a non-strictly-black-and-white coloration. I still am not real excited about this one, but we'll see what kind of discussion there is. Bruce leverett (talk) 20:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

I wan't to hear your side now, do you support or not. Wcamp9 (talk) 20:58, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

I would stick with the image on the right. Bruce leverett (talk) 01:15, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

https://www.si.edu/object/grover-cleveland:npg_NPG.80.24 ? https://www.si.edu/object/grover-cleveland:npg_NPG.2007.308 ? Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.8% of all FPs.} 23:35, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

One is a side profile, and since we can’t get this one to be the main image, I don’t think we are able to get it to be the main. https://www.si.edu/object/grover-cleveland:npg_NPG.80.24 is already on Wikipedia and used to be the image before it was changed for being 7 years after his presidency Wcamp9 (talk) 15:07, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

& vs And

Grover Cleveland
22nd & 24th President of the United States

Grover Cleveland
22nd and 24th President of the United States

There seems to be a fight over which option to use for the infobox. Instead of edit warring I suggest discussing it here. I personally prefer "&" as it allows the entire entry to be more compact and on one line. - Bokmanrocks01 (talk) 03:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Often space is an issue in infoboxes so I also prefer the more compact "&" --FMSky (talk) 18:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Using "&" is acceptable to me. Drdpw (talk) 23:57, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 January 2025

please change "and the first of two U.S. presidents to serve nonconsecutive terms." to "and the first of two U.S. presidents to be elected to nonconsecutive terms." Because Donald Trump has not served his second term yet; he is currently serving it. Ahoeveler (talk) 22:15, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose The current wording is accurate because it’s about presidents with nonconsecutive terms. Doesn't matter if Trump's is just beginning, he's serving a nonconsecutive term. Ktkvtsh (talk) 23:04, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

 Not done – However, I did modify the accompanying efn-note to denote that Donald Trump began his second non-consecutive term in 2025. Drdpw (talk) 23:57, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

WHY IS TRUMP ON THIS PAGE?

THERE IS LITERALLY ZERO REASON TO MENTION THE 45 BY NAME ON THIS PAGE 2601:2C7:8E82:5BC0:8F5:5542:899:8AA7 (talk) 17:44, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

Because Cleveland and Trump are the only presidents to serve non-consecutive presidential terms. You disliking Trump is not relevant here. --77.22.168.12 (talk) 17:46, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

Who gives a fuck if I "dislike" him. We are talking about WP:NOTABILITY here. "Grover Cleveland was the first president to run two nonconsecutive terms". That's it. No more mention IS NEEDED. STOP SCREWING WITH US WIKIPEDIA EDITORS WE KNOW THE RULES 2601:2C7:8E82:5BC0:8F5:5542:899:8AA7 (talk) 18:02, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

"The first president to run two nonconsecutive terms" - That would imply that this is a common occurence 77.22.168.12 (talk) 18:19, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

First sentence

@MalborkHistorian: I would expect you to give a justification for changing the first sentence from

... served as the 22nd and 24th president of the United States...

to

...was an American politician and lawyer who served as the 22nd and 24th president of the United States...

The former is the natural and usual way of introducing Cleveland; that is, if I were in conversation with someone, and the person asked me who Cleveland was, I would say something like "Cleveland was president of the United States in the late 19th century." Would you not say something like that? One would not interject "American politician" or "American politician and lawyer" -- that would be crazy, or at least silly. What is silly in conversation is at least as silly in writing.

MOS:FIRSTBIO has its own requirements for the first sentence, and so we include information about Cleveland's birth date and death date, and the dates of his service as president. We also include the ordinal numbers of his service (22nd and 24th), since this seems to be a tradition with U.S. presidents. But there is no requirement for redundant information like "American politician"; obviously every president of the U.S. is by definition an American politician, and it is unnecessary and self-defeating to say what does not need to be said.

Cleveland's career as a lawyer was not notable enough to be mentioned anywhere in the lead section. For that reason we should certainly leave it out of the first sentence. The first sentence is your chance to engage the reader, not to put him to sleep. We are not to stuff it with one-word references to odd junctures in his career -- that is the point of MOS:LEADCLUTTER. Bruce leverett (talk) 18:50, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

Children

Does this six include his illegitimate child with with Maria Halpin. (Oscar Folsom Cleveland, later James E. King Jr.) Armando Jones (IND.) (talk) 14:50, 10 February 2025 (UTC)

Yes, it does, and I have clarified this in the infobox. Drdpw (talk) 16:22, 10 February 2025 (UTC)

Who changed the ranking?

The introduction to this article used to end with "Cleveland has been praised more recently for honesty, integrity, adherence to his morals, defying party boundaries, and effective leadership and is typically ranked in the middle to upper tier of U.S. presidents." Now it says, " Cleveland is typically ranked as an average or below-average U.S. president, due to his handling of the Panic of 1893 and the legacy of the Dawes Act." Who made the change and what is the source??? Jimknutt (talk) 23:21, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

Interpresidency

Can we refer to the period between Cleveland’s two terms as his “interpresidency”? 76.170.147.28 (talk) 06:52, 18 February 2025 (UTC)