Talk:Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaevna of Russia, Duchess of Leuchtenberg

Untitled

Please consider how this page may be disambiguated with Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaevna of Russia. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 21:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Estate

Was her art divided among her surviving sons, or among her surviving children? Which son put on the first show (in 1884)? Is "the Hermitage" a particular place? Mdotley 03:50, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Requested move 6 September 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaevna of Russia, Duchess of Leuchtenberg. Consensus that the ducal title makes for a more WP:NATURAL disambiguator than the years of the subject's life. Concerns were raised that the original proposal, which omitted the prefixed "Grand Duchess", might remove too much context about who the figure is; participants thus seem to have converged on the title "Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaevna of Russia, Duchess of Leuchtenberg", which – while it was noted as being quite lengthy – was also found to balance naturalness with informational value. Some discussion also took place about how to romanize the figure's patronymic, and it resulted in a consensus to retain the "Nikolaevna" spelling. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:54, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

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Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaevna of Russia (1819–1876) → Maria Nikolaevna, Duchess of Leuchtenberg – A daughter of Russia's last emperor had the same name as this woman and a long time ago editors chose to disambiguate them by putting the years of birth and death in this article's name but using her ducal title makes for a more natural disambiguation. Killuminator (talk) 13:45, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Support per nom and WP:NATURAL. I would prefer Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaevna of Russia, Duchess of Leuchtenburg as that's a more common format for deceased consorts, but I can see why some would view that is too long. estar8806 (talk) ★ 20:44, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I would also note that this Grand Duchess appears to use Nikolaievna or Nikolayevna as a patronymic, as opposed to the other Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaevna of Russia. While it might be too small of a difference to warrant no disambiguator, though I personally think a hatnote would be okay to solve confusion, it probably should be considered as to whether a new title (whatever that may be) should use the different spelling. estar8806 (talk) ★ 20:50, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

How did you determine that? Maria Nikolaevna appears to be by far the most common spelling.[1]  —Michael Z. 19:33, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

By simply looking through the sources for this article. There was another Maria Nikolaevna, which likely has some effect on the ngrams especially considering she is far more notable than this one. I'm simply saying that the spelling could have been different. The prose of this article consistently uses "Maria Nikolaievna". estar8806 (talk) ★ 19:38, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

But gauging the COMMONNAME is based on the corpus of reliable sources, not just the literal handful cited here.

Your argument implies that each spelling is inherently associated with a particular Maria Nikolaevna. Dubious. I would wager that any source that mentions both people will spell their names the same way.

If there was a way to separate search results that refer to the one or the other, we might or might not find that each is spelled more frequently one way or another. I would still maintain that that’s not significant. But anyway, no one has demonstrated that it’s the case.

They should both be spelled the same way, unless there’s an evidence-based reason not to.  —Michael Z. 21:47, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

• I had to go through Category:Russian grand duchesses to see if any of the pages there use a woman's title upon marriage within her article's name and it turns out none of them do. The problem with this move is that it removes both the territorial designation ("of Russia") and the prefix ("Grand Duchess"). I'm sure she is mostly remembered as the daughter of an emperor and grand duchess rather than "Duchess of Leuchtenberg". estar8806 pointed out that her patronymic appears as Nikolaievna or Nikolayevna but the Russian spelling ("Николаевна") appears to be the same for her and the other Maria Nikolaevna. If English sources differ, however, then we can simply change the patronymic and add a hatnote at the top of these two pages. Keivan.f^Talk 21:06, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

  @Estar8806 favors longer titles in similar move proposals and I'll state here that I'm not opposed to them. Killuminator (talk) 21:10, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not quite certain what that was intended to mean, but in my defense I would say less ambiguous (and more often than not, more consistent) rather than longer, but that's just semantics I guess. estar8806 (talk) ★ 21:19, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

  I simply mean you're proposing Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaevna of Russia, Duchess of Leuchtenburg, which would be a best of both worlds type of resolution that also solves ambiguity as a hat trick. Anne, Princess Royal and Princess of Orange is a title that follows this type of combination and resolves the underlying ambiguity. Killuminator (talk) 22:18, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.