Talk:Glossary of nautical terms (M–Z)

Please discuss all matters that refer to both sections of this glossary on Talk:Glossary of nautical terms (A-L)

Add "rig"

"Rigging" is already here, but it is different in meaning from "rig", which, according to Merriam Webster, is "the distinctive shape, number, and arrangement of sails and masts of a ship" and, according to Collins, is "the distinctive arrangement of sails, masts, and rigging on a vessel". I suggest, "the arrangement of masts, sails, and rigging on a sailing craft" (since boats, windsurfers, iceboats and land yachts have rigs, too). Sincerely, HopsonRoad (talk) 13:55, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Some basic principles and (top of the list) some personal prejudices:
1. Dictionaries, whilst often readily accessible, can be deficient (and in the case of the OED, downright wrong) on nautical matters. My preference is to use specialist sources.
2. The more familiar a term, the less likely you are to find a specialist source define it.
3. The most useful definition I can find out of several potential sources is [1]. Though it only says so by way of example, it makes clear that "rig" can mean the arrangement of spars, masts and sails, and also the type of sails employed. This is in the last sentence of the PBO glossary entry, which says
"Various common rigs are discussed under their own entries: Bermudan, Cat, Cutter, Gunter, Ketch, Lug, Schooner, Sloop and Yawl."
So, we see the arrangement of rig components (cat, cutter, ketch, schooner, sloop, yawl) and the sail type (Bermudan, gunter, lug – to which we could add gaff, staysail, etc.)
4. This duality of of meaning is confirmed by a close reading of the introductions of both Harold Underhill's Sailing Ship Rigs and Rigging and the more recent Sailing Rigs an Illustrated Guide by Jenny Bennett. (Bennett mentions Underhill's work in the introduction to her book, which demonstrates the authority of that earlier source – he is very widely cited.) Both books, however, frustratingly avoid a simple definition of "rig" or "sailing rig". You have to study the way they explain things to take the meaning I am describing, even though I feel it is quite clear.
5. From this I think a better definition is something like:
"The rig of a sailing craft is the description of either the arrangement of masts and sails on that craft, or of the type of sails used – or of both these characteristics combined. For example, the rig of one vessel may be described as schooner, gaff rig, or as a gaff-rigged schooner."
I am unsure whether or not the definition would be improved by adding:
"Examples of the arrangement of masts and sails include: cutter, sloop, yawl, ketch, schooner. Some such descriptions imply the sail type used – for instance a brig is square rigged. The type of sail includes: Bermuda rig, gaff, gunter, spritsail."
6. For the glossary entry, we also need to cover the verb as well as the noun. This term also has some breadth. If you are talking about rigging a large keelboat in the midst of the sailing season, you probably mean getting the sails out of the locker and putting them in position ready for hoisting. If you are coming out of winter lay-up, it is stepping the mast(s) and setting up the standing rigging. Or for a dinghy sailor who tows his boat to everywhere they sail from, it always means the latter. It is even harder to find a source that defines this usage (though we have Jane's Dictionary of Naval Terms: "fit vessel with rigging; set up gear ready for working".) It would be nice if we could clearly differentiate between (a) "rigging the mainsail" [standard Bermudan sloop] which involves threading the footrope/slides into the extrusion/track of the boom, tightening the foot with the clew outhaul, bending on the halyard and (sometimes) feeding the slides on the luff into the track on the mast and (b) "hoisting" or "setting" the same sail. The difference might be a bit more obvious with a square sail, as it is a bit more work to bend the sail onto a yard. At this point I hesitate to offer a definition of the verb. But it will need doing. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 21:47, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

I was perhaps too quick to discount the OED as a source. The entry at [2] has a qualifying addition to the main definition "Frequently with distinguishing word indicating the configuration used; for more established compounds, as Bermuda, cat, jury, ketch, Montagu, square rig, etc., see the first element" which I feel demonstrates the range of meanings. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 21:54, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

ThoughtIdRetired, thank you for the thoughts, above. In reviewing this glossary, it appears to me that the definitions conform to a first-level approximation, rather than attempting to cover every nuance of a term. Note that the given word often links to an article with more detail.

It seems that you accept the definition that I offered. Additionally, you make a case for rig meaning the type of sails employed, but that appears to be encompassed in the definition that I proposed. I concur that a verb definition is warranted. So, I would propose:

Rig

1. The arrangement of masts, sails, and rigging on a sailing craft.
2. To fit a sailing craft with its masts, sails or rigging.

HopsonRoad (talk) 01:58, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I think that crystalises the thinking I put forward. I wonder if any of this might help the article, though. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 06:44, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

It will, if we rename the article, "Rig (sailing)". Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 11:31, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

References

There are many terms in this glossary that are completely unreferenced. That really needs fixing.

I note that where a term is clearly linked to an article on the subject, referencing is not needed (unless the glossary definition is different from that in the article). But there is a lot of content here that needs the addition of a reference.

Please put any general discussion of referencing of this glossary on Talk:Glossary of nautical terms (A–L)#References, where this talk page post is duplicated. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 07:44, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Transclude broken

I have no idea of how the Transclude is supposed to work in the beginning of this article, but it doesn't. I guess it should present a link to Glossary of nautical terms (A-L), but it doesn't, it only presents a link to itself. I'd like to remove it and hard-code the proper link, but I will defer for awhile if someone can fix it. Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 02:22, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I believe I have fixed the problem that has been pointed out here. Let me know if you disagree. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 09:28, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Looks fixed to me, thanks. Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 19:12, 15 November 2023 (UTC)