Talk:Genesis (band)/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 05:08, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

I'll gladly take this one. It might take some time to initially read through and spotcheck, though. Snuggums (talk / edits) 05:08, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

You're a glutton for punishment! I'll see you at the other end. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 08:26, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Still reading through. I hope to have this up within a week. Snuggums (talk / edits) 22:52, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

No problem! You're doing a Herculean job here. Looking forward to the comments. LowSelfEstidle (talk) 10:49, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Lead

• I'm not sure if "drummer/singer" complies with MOS:SLASH

I'm not sure either - fortunately it's not part of the GA criteria - the trouble with "and" is that the lead would then read "... and drummer and singer Phil Collins" which is confusing Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• "Important" in "Other important members" is unnecessary editorializing

We need to say something here, "Other members" on its own would lead me to say "and, so were John Mayhew and Mick Barnard and Ray Wilson". I think we need to put all five "classic line-up" members in the lead, but not all five played on anything like the majority of hits for the group, just a very significant minority. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• "substantial" would probably be better than "significant" in "significant changes"

I've gone with "The band underwent many changes in musical style" Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• "US top 40 single"..... let's be more specific and say top 25 or at least top 30 given how "Follow You Follow Me" reached #23, and 1978 is not mentioned in article body

I've gone with "top 30" single - for the year of release "...And Then There Were Three... was released in March 1978." ... " "Follow You Follow Me" was released as its lead single" implies it was released that year, it wouldn't be a "lead single" if it was released some time after the album. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• The singles for Invisible Touch should be mentioned by name when talking about its US success, especially the title track given how it reached number one on the Billboard Hot 100

I did that earlier but somebody else (Rodericksilly?) removed them, so I would say there is no consensus for this. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

He seems has an invisible touch, yeah :P .....But Seriously, by all means restore them, or at least the title track since it went #1 Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:16, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

"I did that earlier but somebody else (Rodericksilly?) removed them, so I would say there is no consensus for this" Not guilty there. Rodericksilly (talk) 13:06, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Ah no, my apologies, it was 78.146.226.23 here. Restored mention of the title track. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• the "best-selling music artists of all time" claim is rather contentious not supported by the given references

Of the references given in the body, this one says "After selling 100 million records in 30 years...", while this one says "The band he played in, Genesis, sold 130 million records", so it is verifiable, but I agree that when I read "the best-selling music artists of all time" I mentally put "!!!!!11one1" after it, so I've removed that Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:01, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• "hit" in "hit albums" is too informal

I've removed "the hit albums" entirely - the MOS-required italics for albums makes it obvious what we're talking about Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

History

1967–69

Formation, early demos, and From Genesis to Revelation

• The years each band member enrolled at Charterhouse belongs in their own articles, and I would instead include the year they met

I don't think you'll find that information in any sources, but given the typical set-up of a British Public school, cut-off from many outside influences, and given all members were against the typical character of Old Carthusians, it's straightforward to assume they knew each other socially anyway and gradually bonded over music, and hence a specific year doesn't make sense. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• "following the success of his 1965 top five pop single"..... I assume this is referring to top five in the UK based on King being from there, and "pop" isn't really needed

"Pop" removed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Let's still mention the nation Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:16, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I wondered what you were talking about, but got it now. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• "Where the Sour Turns to Sweet" redirects to From Genesis to Revelation, so no need to link it here

"I suspect this was a standalone article and got redirected at some point, so this link is archaic - removed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Is "The poor commercial performance" referring to the song or album?

I've changed this to "None of the releases were commercially successful" Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• I don't see the need for album cover details

I've clarified this, as the cover was a key ingredient to the album's commercial failure Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

1969–70

First gigs, signing with Charisma, and Trespass

• Who is "Mrs. Balmes" supposed to be?

A bit of undetected vandalism, I think - removed. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

That really was her name! But understand the need for clarity. LowSelfEstidle (talk) 09:16, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• "The album was largely ignored by the music press at the time of release" needs a citation; I don't see it in the Rolling Stone reference for commentary on its reissue

You can't prove a negative - in any case, I've removed the note as I don't think it's important Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• See above note on album cover details

Covers were an important part of Genesis' releases in their earlier career, where the large size of a 12" LP helped to promote a band. The 1972 Belgium television performance (bootlegged all over YouTube and elsewhere) uses the Nursery Cryme album shot interspersed with the band Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:02, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

1970–72

Collins and Hackett join and Nursery Cryme

• Link the first instance of Melody Maker

Done Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• See above note on album cover details

See reply above ;-) Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

1972–74

Foxtrot and Selling England by the Pound

• I don't see anything supporting "the 23-minute track 'Supper's Ready'. It remains the band's longest track recorded. Songs such as the Arthur C. Clarke-inspired 'Watcher of the Skies' solidified their reputation as songwriters and performers. Foxtrot was released in October 1972 and reached No. 12 in the UK. It fared even better in Italy where it went to No. 1. Foxtrot was well received from critics. Chris Welch of Melody Maker thought Foxtrot was 'a milestone in the group's career', 'an important point of development in British group music', and that Genesis had reached 'a creative peak'." in the given reference.

Yikes - that looks bloody terrible : "solidified their reputation as songwriters and performers" - that's about as NPOV as Nigel Farage is on the EU .... anyway, I've rewritten this section. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:20, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• This doesn't seem to fully support "Gabriel's costumes expanded in the following months to include fluorescent face paint and a cape fitted with bat wings for 'Watcher of the Skies', several guises throughout 'Supper's Ready', and a mask of an old man for 'The Musical Box'. In December 1972, Stratton-Smith organised the band's first gigs in the US with a show at Brandeis University in Waltham, Massachusetts and Philharmonic Hall in New York City with openers String Driven Thing, in aid of the United Cerebral Palsy Fund", though that might be due to page number issues

Sourced and generally copyedited. When I originally read through this section, nothing jumped out at me as being obviously false, but I'm familiar with the band's story Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:20, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• See above note on album cover details

1974–75

The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway and Gabriel's departure

• AllMusic mentions the album's US peak, but not its UK peak. No release date is given either.

Bowler / Dray's book has all of these, let me fish it out and I'll use that. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

.... and now done Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:20, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• "on The Lamb... tour" → "during the tour"

Done Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• "he was to leave" → "he would leave"

Good catch - done Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

1975–77

Collins on lead vocals, A Trick of the Tail, and Wind & Wuthering

• Is "an instrumental four piece" referring to the group's member count? If so, I'd probably go with "a four-member group"

I've replaced it with "Collins' idea of continuing as an instrumental group" Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• See above note on AllMusic link.

Sourced Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:39, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• "It spawned two singles, 'A Trick of the Tail' and 'Entangled'" is unreferenced.

I can do the title track, but I don't have a source for "Entangled" and I don't recall it ever being released as a single (lovely song though), so I've removed that. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:39, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

The only problems now are an extra period after the citation, and there's nothing on its level of commercial success (or lack thereof) Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:16, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

All fixed. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:00, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• "Ripples" is not mentioned in the given source about promotional videos

I could have sworn I've watched it, but a quick search on YouTube only shows the studio cut or live performances ... removed (also fixed in A Trick of the Tail's own article) Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• I can't seem to find anything on the studio or September 1976 here
• Unless I'm mistaken, this doesn't mention June

I don't think it's important to mention the month really - removed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• The Mike Douglas Show doesn't really need to be mentioned

Are you sure. From what I can tell, it gave Genesis a major boost in popularity in the US, and looking at its article, it seems to have done that for a lot of other notable acts. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

It's just that talk shows in general are oftentimes not particularly noteworthy in bios of people who don't host them. If including the show, I'd go into how it helped promote the band and increase popularity. Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:16, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I've reduced this to "television appearances", as it's the fact they started to be on TV in general that's important here, rather than any specific show. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

1977–79

...And Then There Were Three... and band inactivity

• This doesn't say that the album was "the palest shadow of the group's earlier accomplishments"

I've rewritten this bit, and other sources suggest critical response was mixed depending largely on their preconceptions Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:39, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Unless I'm missing something, there's nothing in here that says "remarkably powerful"

I think LowSelfEstidle added this - can you comment? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Never mind; I actually just found it now Snuggums (talk / edits) 22:21, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• Please provide a source that calls "Follow You Follow Me" a lead single

Since you said "please", okay Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:39, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• What fans think about "selling out" is unnecessary detail, though I would have nothing against discussing critics' thoughts on the matter

The source in question (Bowler / Dray's book) is talking about the press talking about fans talking about "selling out" (if you see what I mean), and I think it's important to mention that the change in musical style alienated older fans, which has caused flame wars on music forums all over the net, so I think it should remain in

Fans get into "my favorite artist is better than yours" or "their older/newer material is better" debates quite often with all sorts of groups and artists. Not sure how this is particularly significant. Snuggums (talk / edits) 22:21, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Fans get into "my favorite artist is better than yours" or "their older/newer material is better" debates quite often with all sorts of groups and artists. Not sure how this is particularly significant. Snuggums (talk / edits) 22:21, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• "didn't sell" should be "did not sell" per WP:CONTRACTIONS, though it seems odd to mention sales here but charts instead for "Follow You Follow Me"

I've replaced with "was less successful"

• The given link for Gabriel's guest appearance doesn't mention Madison Square Garden
• "their only UK show that year" is unnecessary detail, and I'm not seeing a month for the Knebworth fesitval in either given source

For a British band who had become successful by gigging the UK, suddenly only doing one gig on their latest tour didn't go down well. I've resourced this and explained. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:39, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• "In December 1978, Genesis began a period of inactivity as Collins's marriage was at risk of collapse after touring had made him frequently absent from his wife and children" is unreferenced

Borrowed a source from Duke (album) which has it Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:39, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

1979–82

Duke and Abacab

• "Misunderstanding" should only be linked in its first mention

Done Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:25, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Official Charts Company says "Duchess" peaked at 46 in the UK, not 42

Bowler / Dray's book also says 46, so we'll go with that. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:25, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Again, no need for detail on album (or EP) cover art

If it's reliably sourced, why not - I wouldn't give it more than a passing mention though. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:25, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Because it's generally not relevant to critical reception/commercial performance of albums, and is better for their own articles Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:16, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I've chopped it down to half a sentence, as the cover is vaguely tied into the "Duke's suite" concept. I think that's a good balance. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• The release date for Abacab as well as "The album was a greater commercial success than Duke, spending two weeks at No. 1 in the UK and reaching No. 7 in the US where it went on to sell two million copies" are missing citations

I've rewritten this bit Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:25, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Its US peak still needs a citation Snuggums (talk / edits) 22:21, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh yeah :-/ I think the citation got split from adding another source in the middle Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:03, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

• A citation should be given for the "Abacab" song's UK peak

Done Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:25, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• TPI mentions a tour beginning in September 1981, but doesn't say when it ended

December '81, the article says it earlier

For some reason I couldn't seem to detect that :/ Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:16, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• "You Might Recall" and "Me and Virgil" aren't mentioned in the given source

Fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:25, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

1982–85

Three Sides Live and Genesis

• A citation is needed for the Three Sides Live US peak

I think by this point in the band's career, mentioning chart peaks isn't really that important as it would be earlier, so I've taken them out

Understandable, though keep in mind that one potential way to summarize positions is to give ranges for multiple releases (i.e. "_____" and "_____" both reached the top 20 in the UK) Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:16, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• Not sure if including Talk Talk, The Blues Band, and John Martyn for the one-off concert with Peter Gabriel is needed

The gig is important, but the support act isn't, so removed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:25, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

That's what I figured Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:16, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• No source is given for "Collins's laugh on the track originated from 'The Message' by Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five. 'That's All' was the band's attempt to create a pop song with a melody in the style of The Beatles with Collins attempting a 'Ringo Starr drum part'."

Fixed the first bit, for the second other sources don't say that at all so I've removed it Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:25, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Why say "Five tracks were released as singles" but only list three singles from the album?

Somebody's been watching too much Monty Python - "five tracks", "three tracks, sir. Anyway fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:25, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• "'Mama' reached No. 4 in the UK, their highest charting UK single to date, and 'That's All' reached No. 6 in the U.S. The Mama Tour ran from November 1983 to February 1984, covering North America and five UK shows in Birmingham. The latter shows were filmed and released as Genesis Live – The Mama Tour." is completely unsourced

Fixed, aside from the US chart placing for "That's All", which I've tagged so I don't forget to do it Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:25, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Mere nominations that they lost aren't particularly notable compared to actual wins, so I'd remove the nominations for Best Rock Performance by a Duo or Group with Vocal and Best Rock Instrumental Performance

Fine by me, nomination / awards stuff sends me to sleep. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:25, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

1985–96

Invisible Touch, We Can't Dance, and Collins's departure

• "big" from "was a big commercial success" isn't really needed

Agreed, chopped Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:09, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• "remains the biggest selling Genesis album with over six million copies sold in the US"..... let's go with best selling Genesis album in the US so people are less likely to assume worldwide when in fact the RIAA ref only gives US sales

Done (I think) Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:09, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• "performed less well"..... awkward phrasing, try "were less successful"
• See above note on lost nominations

I've addressed both of these issues by cutting these right down, as a laundry a list of nominations and not-so-important chart positions grates after a bit Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:09, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Not sure "Genesis commissioned the creators of the satirical British television show Spitting Image, Peter Fluck and Roger Law, to make puppets of them in the style of the show" is worth mentioning

It's a very well known video (it got several nominations) and was the cover of the single sleeve (I've got an original somewhere). Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:09, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• "In 1991 Genesis recorded their thirteenth album, We Can't Dance, from March to September with their new engineer and co-producer, Nick Davis. The band took advantage of the increased capacity the CD offered and released over 71 minutes of new music across 12 tracks. Collins wrote the lyrics to "Since I Lost You" for his friend Eric Clapton following the death of Clapton's four-year-old son Conor." is completely unreferenced

Fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:09, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Again, why say a certain number of singles were released, but not mention them all by name?

No idea, I didn't write this. I've cut this down. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:09, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Not sure if "their most expensive stage set yet" is necessary to include

I've cut this down

• "On 2 August Genesis headlined their second Knebworth Festival concert in their history. In November, they performed six nights at Earls Court; one show was released on home video as The Way We Walk Live in Concert." is completely uncited

I've removed this; by this point in the career the band wouldn't be doing gigs anything less than this, so it's not particularly important to mention. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:09, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

1996–2006

Wilson on lead vocals, Calling All Stations, and hiatus

• "Calling All Stations was released in August 1997. It was a success in Europe, where it reached No. 2 in the UK, but the album peaked at No. 54 in the US, their lowest charting album there since 1974.".... the Official Charts Company link only supports UK peak, and says the album was released September 1997 rather than August.

It was 1 September 1997. Fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:38, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• I still don't understand giving a number of singles without mentioning all of them by name

Removed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:38, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• VH1 doesn't include any quotes from Wilson or mention Gabriel at all

Removed, I don't think it's important. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:38, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Let's include a citation to support "a three-disc box set of songs from 1970–97", which should be 1970–1997 per MOS:DATE

Rather than dates, I think a general "covering the band's career" is better. It covers everything bar the first album (which AFAIK the band still don't own the rights to). Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:38, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:16, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

2006–present

2007 tour, reunion speculations, and BBC documentary

• NME doesn't mention Stuermer or Thompson

I don't think Stuermer or Thompson appearing on the "Turn It On Again Tour" is "information challenged or likely to be challenged" myself, but sourced anyway. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:38, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• "The Turn It On Again Tour included 48 shows across Europe and North America between June and October 2007" needs a reference

I can't find a source for this anywhere, I suspect somebody has added up the (unsourced) list in Turn It On Again: The Tour and come out with that. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:38, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• "the largest screen used for a rock concert at the time" isn't in the given citation as far as I can tell

Removed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:38, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• "On 7 July, Genesis opened the Live Earth concert in London at Wembley Stadium. The show in Düsseldorf was broadcast live into cinemas across Europe. The leg ended with a free concert on 14 July at the Circus Maximus in Rome that was attended in excess of 400,000 people" is not supported by the attributed link

I've sourced the Live Earth, removed the Düsseldorf, but I would like to find a better source for the Rome gig. Annoyingly, I remember reading this on news sources in 2007, but I can't find any of them. I've tagged it as for the minute. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:38, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• I think you'll need a more informative link than this for When In Rome 2007 and Live over Europe 2007

All that's being cited is the album and DVD's existence, what else? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:38, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't describe where/when they were recorded Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:16, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I've dropped another source in to bolster this. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• See above note on MOS:DATE

I changed this to "Trespass to Calling All Stations" Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:38, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• "hits" in "1980s hits" is too informal

copyedited Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:38, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• "hadn't been" → "had not been" per WP:CONTRACTIONS

copyedited Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:38, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• "Hackett used the documentary as an example of how a Genesis reunion would be"..... awkward phrasing, and I'm not sure this bit and his quote are even needed. I'd just simply say he "found a reunion to be unlikely"

copyedited Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:38, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Musical style

• Something about the tone of "Genesis have always been first and foremost songwriters" doesn't feel right, and I don't know if it's really necessary to begin with

It's in the opening chapter of several Genesis biographies, and the subject of several interviews eg: when A Trick of the Tail was released and critics couldn't believe the band sounded so good without Gabriel, and it also explains the common thread that makes Trespass and We Can't Dance Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:29, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps use something like "Genesis primarily identifies as songwriters". Snuggums (talk / edits) 22:21, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Done Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:03, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

• Nothing on who influenced the group?

Er, there is already, but I've dropped a bit more in. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:29, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Somehow missed it, but the additions are quite beneficial :) Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:16, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Legacy

Sales

• The given source mentions selling 130 records, but doesn't support the band being "among the list of best-selling music artists". Also, why is both this and claims of 150 million included at the same time? I personally feel the BBC link used seems the most credible.

This Telegraph source says 130 million too. Unless one of the other contributors comes forward, I suggest we go with 130m personally. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

So do I Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:16, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• My calculations of the BPI album certifications total up to 6.04 million rather than 7.2 million, though I could be mistaken.
• I admittedly cannot speak French or German very well and don't really know their certification figures, but will assume good faith for the given figures
• If possible, I'd try to include something on their best-selling

Sorry, what do you mean? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

That was an incomplete point (my bad) that meant to say "best-selling releases", which could be albums or songs (i.e. Their songs/albums "______", "_____", "______", "______", and "_____" have each sold over *insert number* copies) Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:16, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• It might be good to merge this with the "Awards and accolades" into an "achievements" subsection given the ranking for "biggest band" in terms of sales and time spent on charts

Agreed. Done. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Influence

• Just because Jim Kerr listened to the band doesn't necessarily indicate they influenced him
• I'm not seeing anything here, here, here, or here suggesting an influence

All removed, except Dream Theater,which I've clarified specifically as Jordan Rudess - the link [1] says "I love the harmonic sense that Tony Banks brought to this record" and "Phil Collins sounds so great, too. He’s such a marvelous singer". Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• "spoke of the band"..... reads awkwardly

copyedited (and overlinked since "awards and nominations" is further up now) Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Mainstream criticism

• Sections devoted to criticism are discouraged per WP:Criticism, and doesn't exactly seem related to their legacy, so this should be removed entirely

That's an essay, not a policy or guideline, and if the criticism is reliably sourced (which, broadly speaking, it is), it should stay. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

The page is really intended to help prevent additions of undue negative weight. At the very least, it shouldn't all be lumped into one section. Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:16, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I've integrated this (and "fan criticism" below) into one section, trimmed it down, and rearranged things a bit. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't really pertain to a "legacy", though. I would've interspersed it throughout article body. Snuggums (talk / edits) 22:21, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree over this. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:03, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Fan criticism

• See above note about WP:Criticism, and what fans think isn't even important anyway compared to what critics think

No, because this has come up in several biographies, and articles such as Rolling Stone, and numerous music forums where fans are "my Genesis" is better than yours - I think we need to leave it in. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

At the very least, it shouldn't all be lumped into one section. Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:16, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Tribute bands

• Not sure if this warrants a section, probably better placed under "influence"
• The Musical Box is the only group cited, and The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway and A Trick of the Tail aren't even mentioned in the attributed reference.

I've reduced it to bands who have articles, and put a tag at the end while I look for sources. The Musical Box has featured Hackett playing at some shows (I'm not sure about being officially endorsed by Genesis themselves though), so they ought to be mentioned for completeness

.... and now rewritten with sources. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Awards and accolades

• "Genesis have received honours and awards throughout the course of their career"..... reads awkwardly, and seems redundant given the text that follows.

I've removed this - it's unnecessary. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• A database that requires a login isn't exactly ideal

I can't seem to find that source, where is it? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

It can be found after "In March 2010, Genesis were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame by Phish guitarist Trey Anastasio" and should be replaced. Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:16, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Done Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• "one of the only two Grammy Awards issued for the short-lived Best Concept Music Video category"..... I'd remove "category",

Done, also "short-lived" while I"m at it Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

References

• Two references have connection issues
• Not sure if this, this, or [www.musicradar.com/news/drums/6-pioneers-of-prog-rock-drumming-622031 this] are reliable

MusicRadar is definitely reliable as articles are professionally printed. In any case, it's the claim being cited that is important.The High Fidelity Review seems to be regurgitating a press release, but I can't see any obvious way the facts (AFAIK it just cites a few bits about the Turn It On Again Tour) are obviously wrong. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• I will assume good faith that all offline references support the article text

Some didn't, I fixed these as I went. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• While AllMusic is good for reviews, WP:ALBUM/SOURCES says its sidebar for genres shouldn't be used, so it's best to resource or remove the genres it is attributed to

Fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Something doesn't seem right with the DVD and Mojo magazine refs compared to the formatting of book citations

I don't believe any of them are used, so they can be removed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Can we get page numbers for ref's 65 and 90?

Since I've been copyediting this evening, these references are probably the wrong ones now. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:29, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Not sure if "TeamRock" or "MusicRadar" are reliable

Don't know where TeamRock is cited, but MusicRadar can be used to cite basic facts, provided you stick to the editorial content authorised by Future Plc and not the social network stuff. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Don't italicize MTV News or VH1

Fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• "The Telegraph" → The Daily Telegraph

I can only see two citations to the Torygraph in the article, and both say that. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• "VH1 Celebrity Gossip and Entertainment News" should just read "VH1"

Fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• There's a HARVref error for Bob Carruthers's book Genesis: The Gabriel Era – Uncensored on the Record

It's not used as a source anymore - I've moved it to "Further Reading" Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Still has a HARVref error, though :/. May as well remove it entirely. 06:16, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

That just needs the ref=harv taken off. There are a few other Genesis books I haven't used which can be added here. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Overall

• Well-written?

• Prose quality: No major concerns, but needs improvement
• Manual of Style compliance: Could be better

• Verifiable?

• Reference layout: Needs some work
• Reliable sources: Two questionable sources and one improper use of an otherwise good quality source
• No original research: Non-working links makes content harder to verify, and not everything matches the given sources

• Broad in coverage?

• Major aspects: Not quite
• Focused: Some excess detail needs to be removed

• Neutral?: Criticism-focused sections aren't really neutral for bio pages

• Stable?: Seems fine

• Illustrated, if possible, by images?

• Appropriate licensing: Song artwork CANNOT be used in bio pages since they are only appropriate for song articles, so File:Genesis-Land-of-confusion-single-cover.jpg needs to be removed.

Says who? In this case, if you are unfamiliar with the song and Spitting Image, the text would not make it obvious what the prose is talking about, so I'm sure a FUR can be assembled for that. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Non-free content such as that should be used as sparingly as possible. I can't think of any valid FUR to justify it being used anywhere else. Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:16, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't have time to construct a good FUR, so I've taken it out for the time being. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:02, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• I'm not sure if File:2180 - Pittsburgh - Mellon Arena - Genesis - The Carpet Crawlers.JPG, File:Peter Gabriel The Watcher of the Skies (cropped).png, or File:Genesis Live- Land Of Confusion.jpg can be claimed as own work (the last of these three is particularly worrisome because it contains zoomed in pics of band members that camera operators could say is their own work).

@Spinningspark: (who uploaded it) may be able to comment on one of those, but as websites like Flickr become more popular, it's perfectly reasonable to assume people are happy to scan old photographs they took, upload them to Flickr, and happen to select a free licence. I would suggest if you still have an issue, you will need to raise a deletion request on Commons. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• I can't really comment on the licensing issue. I cropped the image and reuploaded it at the request of another user, user:Leahtwosaints. SpinningSpark 00:09, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• Something seems wrong with File:Genesis 1967 lineup.jpg being unlicensed.

I've replaced it with a generic shot of Charterhouse which does the same trick. I've seen the photo on reissues of the first album, so it's definitely copyrighted. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Relevance and captioning: In addition to the aforementioned song artwork not having a valid license for this page, that along with File:FLF.jpg and File:The Musical Box 2011.jpg aren't particularly beneficial to begin with. Also, just using "Ray Wilson" as a caption for File:Ray Wilson 2 2010.jpg doesn't really provide anything meaningful for readers

I've taken some of these out anyway as just a general tidy up, but a picture of The Farm recording studio, where Genesis recorded much of their 80s output, is worth having. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Pass or Fail?: I'm really sorry for the delays (this took much longer than I originally expected), but it's now finally up. This is on hold for seven days. Let's see how much the article can improve. Snuggums (talk / edits) 03:29, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

@SNUGGUMS: I've gone through all the issues and addressed them, although some of them have involved me putting tags on the article, which I'll come back tomorrow when I'm feeling a little more alert. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Fine with me as long as everything is done by December 6th. Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:16, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

@SNUGGUMS: I believe all issues are now addressed and all tags I put on the article are now resolved, can you take another look? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:04, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Mostly good, though I still don't see support for:

• September 1976 here
• Madison Square Garden here

In addition to those and the responses I have above, CBS News shouldn't be italicized, Invisible Touch (song) should be linked in the lead, "70s" should be "1970s" per MOS:DATE, a page number would be useful for Stuart Maconie's Q piece, "The" is part of the title for The Bolton News, and I'm not entirely convinced these sites are reliable after looking through again. WP:ALBUM/SOURCES doesn't have anything to back them up. Snuggums (talk / edits) 22:21, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

All issues in the above paragraph fixed. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:03, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Pinging Ritchie333, Rodericksilly, and LowSelfEstidle as a reminder that this is close to being ready for promotion, but still has some things to address as noted in my previous set of comments. The deadline is December 6th. Snuggums (talk / edits) 15:48, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

I have addressed this last point on WT:GAN. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:06, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Two verification issues left and we're good to go. Snuggums (talk / edits) 16:18, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

And then there was one .... I don't have a reliable source that has all three of "Madison Square Garden", "1978" and "Peter Gabriel". Unreliable sources, no problem - here's one I found in 5 seconds. Let me have a rummage around. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:41, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

I looked around and can't seem to find any good refs mentioning all three myself, and ended up deciding that the location wasn't really crucial and removed it. You are of course free to add it back if a good source comes along. Did a couple other tweaks in case you don't mind. Now passing. Congrats Ritchie! Snuggums (talk / edits) 05:30, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for a good review, as always, Snuggums. Good to see a high traffic article back up at GA! Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:22, 5 December 2015 (UTC)