Talk:Geji/Archive 1
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Archive 1 |
Sources in Chinese
Are Chinese sources deemed useful and accepted for this article? I mean sources written in the Chinese language, which English languages speakers probably won't know how to read. -Sofia Koutsouveli (talk) 12:00, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
According to the Chinese Wikipedia "艺妓" refers to Japanese Geisha, not Chinese courtesans. Can someone check the source to make sure the correct characters are being used. https://zh.wiki.x.io/wiki/艺妓
Also "歌女" seems to be more similar to what Yiji are meant to be. https://zh.wiki.x.io/wiki/歌女 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uanime5 (talk • contribs) 23:01, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
About the classification of entries on English Wikipedia
An error was found in the classification. I hope an administrator can help correct it. Thank you. Du Zhu is not a prostitute and should be removed from the classification of prostitutes in China. Sai jinhua should correspond to the classification of Chinese prostitutes. The Chinese Prostitution category has Eight Beauties of Qinhuai, which should be removed. Eight Beauties of Qinhuai is not about prostitution. 清风与明月 (talk) 15:07, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
Unreadable
Unreadable, meandering, extremely long paragraphs, confusing, illogical organisation, too many details before the substance is clarified, poor English. All I got is that the Geji must have been prostitutes, since the article devotes so much text to vociferous and repetitive denying that they were. 62.73.69.121 (talk) 23:48, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Geji are not prostitutes. I have a lot of information to prove that they are not prostitutes, and not all gejis are prostitutes. I put the content in the discussion area. And this wiki is just describing artistic talent.So do you think Japanese geishas are prostitutes? Are all geishas prostitutes? 清风与明月 (talk) 15:36, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
Zhu Ziqing's Essay
For the sake of being as transparent as possible, I am also posting here what I posted on User:清风与明月's talk page.
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Putting Zhu Ziqing's essay in the lead is WP:UNDUE. Brocade River Poems 03:08, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't know what you think. We have already coordinated and edited together. If there is no better reference material for the added content, you can add the reference material, but don't delete the content directly. I added, "But many people are not prostitutes", and you deleted it directly. 清风与明月 (talk) 04:38, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I deleted it because you are adding information that is unsubstantiated by any source except for an essay of someone who is expressing a personal opinion. Per Wikipedia policy, the article can only represent information which is verifible in the sources. We cannot just write "but many are not prostitutes" when there are no reliable sources supporting the information. Per
Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section
the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents
, emphasis added. A statement in wikivoice that is only supported by a single source that isn't even considered appropriate for use in this context is not something which belongs in the lead of the article. It is WP:UNDUE when the vast majority of academic sources on the subject say that Geji engaged in sexual services. Brocade River Poems 08:57, 30 August 2024 (UTC)- Since there is too much content, I cannot reply to you directly, so I have put a lot of content in the discussion area, which is also convenient for reading. A large number of reference materials indicate that gejis provide sexual services. What I mean is, does having sexual relations mean prostitution? I admit that they have sexual relations, but does this mean that they are all prostitutes? I also said that sexual relations do not necessarily mean prostitution, so many people are indeed not prostitutes. Do a large number of reference materials say that they are prostitutes if they have sexual relations? We have agreed to co-edit before, but if you think they are prostitutes, and having sexual relations means prostitution, people like Zhu Ziqing are also brothel frequenters. Then I think there is no need for us to communicate more.Because this shows that our understanding is different, and this thing cannot be explained. So, you can rename the entry "Chinese courtesan", maybe this editing can satisfy various different views. 清风与明月 (talk) 09:27, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I deleted it because you are adding information that is unsubstantiated by any source except for an essay of someone who is expressing a personal opinion. Per Wikipedia policy, the article can only represent information which is verifible in the sources. We cannot just write "but many are not prostitutes" when there are no reliable sources supporting the information. Per
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- I have posted this issue to WP:3O. Brocade River Poems 04:10, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
- 清风与明月 (talk) 04:52, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- 清风与明月 (talk) 05:03, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
Third opinion
IOHANNVSVERVS (talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.
- Viewpoint by User:BrocadeRiverPoems
- There are no sources which substantiate the statement that "Many geji were not prostitutes" and so the language should not be used in the lead. A majority of sources describe that Geji sometimes provided sexual services to their clients, and that is what the reliable sources say, and should be represented. Note: I am not advocating for the inclusion of the title 'prostitute' anywhere in the lead, the other editor is adding the word prostitute to argue they weren't prostitutes.Brocade River Poems 20:40, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- "A majority of sources describe that Geji sometimes provided sexual services to their clients" — Could you present one or two of the sources? Thanks, IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:47, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Sure thing, here are three.
- Brook, Timothy The Confusions of Pleasure: Commerce and Culture in Ming China(1998) University of California Press p.229-230 "No symbolic capital was garnered from patronizing prostitutes, since any male with a little cash could buy female sexual services in any Ming town. Desire needed other guises to participate in the fashion struggle. One of these guises was courtesanship."
- Blanchard, Lara Caroline Williams (2018) Song dynasty figures of longing and desire : gender and interiority in Chinese painting and poetry. Brill, Leiden. p.119 "Tang and Song dynasty "singing girls” (geji歌姬, literally "singing entertainers") or "courtesans" (ji妓) were composers and performers: women who possessed unparalleled talent at music or poetry and whom scholars especially admired for the ability to write verse. 60 They also provided sexual entertainment. In these periods, a courtesan's musical or literary accomplishments inextricably connect to an erotic performance at which she excelled;"
- The Garland Encyclopedia of World Music: East Asia: China, Japan, and Korea. United Kingdom, Taylor & Francis, 2017. "In most cases, the boundary between the yueji's music and dance and the sexual services they rendered was blurred. At different historical periods, various terms have been used to describe the yueji (Xiu and Jian 1993); these terms include nüyue (female musicians and dancers), wu (female shamans), gongji (female court entertainers), guanji (government-sponsored female entertainers), yingji (army- sponsored female entertainers), jiaji (privately owned female entertainers), geji (female singers), and mingji (courtesans)."
- I am providing three because Timothy Brook never refers to geji specifically, only "courtesans" and "prostitutes", though Geji are courtesans. Brocade River Poems 23:12, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I just want the record to note that the other editor in this dispute requested that we seek an outside opinion, has thus far not participated in the discussion, and has continued to remove well sourced content from the article as seen here [1]. I also want to state that the very article the other editor included reads
Many historical facts were clarified thanks to the scholar Chen Yinke who did a detailed textual research in his Anecdotal Biography of Liu Rushi on the love between Chen Zilong , a noted writer in the late Ming Dynasty and Liu Rushi , a prostitute noted for her beauty and literary talent
- I think it is perhaps safe to declare that this 3PO has failed. Brocade River Poems 03:01, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- What content specifically is in dispute? What would you like to add and/or remove
- I made some changes here for now. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 03:50, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- The content that is in dispute is they continue to misrepresent sources in an attempt to whitewash that Geji engaged in sexual intercourse as part of their profession. Frankly, the entire article needs to be re-written as it is a meandering incoherent mess that asserts so heavily that Geji aren't prostitutes throughout it, that it leaves the only logical conclusion to be that they were prostitutes. You have removed the content most recently added that was the source of the dispute, i.e the "many weren't prostitutes", but as noted they changed the content again [2] here, where they added
The sexual relationship between a geji and her customer was usually more like a cohabitation relationship.[1][2]
and removed[3]
, despite the fact that the abstract for that journal article they added explicitly states Liu Rushi was a prostitute, and then they add a source that is just "Li Yueshen,95" which cannot in any way be verified. Brocade River Poems 04:01, 5 September 2024 (UTC)- I see this is being dealt with at ANI. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 22:58, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, because the issue stretches beyond a content issue. Brocade River Poems 23:28, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- I understand. Hopefully ANI can deal with the conduct dispute aspect. I agree with John B123 that 清风与明月 should not be continuing to edit the page without participating in this discussion.
- @BrocadeRiverPoems, regarding the content dispute, what specifically would you like the article to look like? What specific changes can you propose?
- Also, @John B123 please feel free to participate in this discussion and to offer your opinion as well if you'd like. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 23:33, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- What specific changes do I propose? That's hard at this juncture to even discuss. Most editors who have looked at the article have said that it needs a complete re-write. Beyond that, the purpose of the 3PO was regarding the statements that the other editor was making in the lead of the article that were not substantiated with any significant reliable sources (i.e, definitively stating in Wikivoice that many geji did not perform sexual services despite numerous sources saying they do). As that dispute has already been resolved, the "Life and Performance" section currently reads
Gejis had low social standing,they were professional entertainers who sometimes engaged in sexual activity with customers.The sexual relationship between a geji and her customer was usually more like a cohabitation relationship
. The qualification attached that "The sexual relationship between a geji and her customer was usually more like a cohabitation relationship" isn't supported by one of the sources cited, and the second source isn't properly cited and thus cannot be checked and verified. They essentially are using an anecdotal experience of one geji to make the claim that all geji's relationships were "usually more like a cohabitation relationship". - Frankly, naming all of the numerous issues and things that need to change about the article is probably far beyond the scope of WP:3PO, and I don't really have the time to spend the entire night picking through the entire article for every dubiously supported or insufficiently sourced claim that is doubtless present. To be frank, the editor in question has added over 100,000 bytes to the article. The last version of the article prior to their intervention is [3], and should in all probability serve as a base for a re-written article. Brocade River Poems 01:48, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- Upon further investigation of the history of the Geji page, I am of the belief that the last version of the article prior to the editor's involvement is actually probably actually this one [4]. Brocade River Poems 02:32, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- I see. The difference between that revision and the present page is quite vast. I'm not sure how to proceed here and it may be true that "the numerous issues and things that need to change about the article is probably far beyond the scope of WP:3PO". IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 04:27, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- Upon further investigation of the history of the Geji page, I am of the belief that the last version of the article prior to the editor's involvement is actually probably actually this one [4]. Brocade River Poems 02:32, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- What specific changes do I propose? That's hard at this juncture to even discuss. Most editors who have looked at the article have said that it needs a complete re-write. Beyond that, the purpose of the 3PO was regarding the statements that the other editor was making in the lead of the article that were not substantiated with any significant reliable sources (i.e, definitively stating in Wikivoice that many geji did not perform sexual services despite numerous sources saying they do). As that dispute has already been resolved, the "Life and Performance" section currently reads
- Yes, because the issue stretches beyond a content issue. Brocade River Poems 23:28, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- I see this is being dealt with at ANI. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 22:58, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- The content that is in dispute is they continue to misrepresent sources in an attempt to whitewash that Geji engaged in sexual intercourse as part of their profession. Frankly, the entire article needs to be re-written as it is a meandering incoherent mess that asserts so heavily that Geji aren't prostitutes throughout it, that it leaves the only logical conclusion to be that they were prostitutes. You have removed the content most recently added that was the source of the dispute, i.e the "many weren't prostitutes", but as noted they changed the content again [2] here, where they added
- I just want the record to note that the other editor in this dispute requested that we seek an outside opinion, has thus far not participated in the discussion, and has continued to remove well sourced content from the article as seen here [1]. I also want to state that the very article the other editor included reads
- Sure thing, here are three.
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- @IOHANNVSVERVS: The ANI is more about conduct than content. Your 3PO would be greatly appreciated here.
- @清风与明月: Please refrain from editing further until IOHANNVSVERVS gives their opinion. This is the usual procedure during dispute resolution. --John B123 (talk) 20:59, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- I don't know what you define it by. I didn't copy the content of Chinese Wikipedia. Many things here are not on Chinese Wikipedia. Sing song girl is not the real translation of geji and singing girl. This context comes from the prostitutes/sex workers in the Republic of China period. They are prostitutes. Because Westerners in China at that time didn't understand, they mistakenly thought they were "singing girls" and gave the prostitutes the name "Sing song girl". The literal meaning of "Sing Song Girl" in English may seem to mean a singing girl or a literal translation of a singing girl, but in reality, it is not. According to Zhang Ailing, "Sing song girl" is a term derived from the Wu language, which also refers to high-end prostitutes as "sir". "Sir" can be a polite term for anyone, regardless of gender. In Wu's language, 'sir' is pronounced as 'Xisang', but the English and American people in Shanghai mistakenly thought it was ' sing song', and they were required to sing at banquets. Therefore, 'sing song girl' is named after it, not the translated name of a singer girl. 清风与明月 (talk) 12:18, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- Since there is too much content to be sent here in full, I will just put it here. Here is everything I want to say about Geji's sexual issues.
- https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Talk:G%C4%93j%C3%AC 清风与明月 (talk) 12:29, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- Viewpoint by John B123
There are several issues here:
- Following the interwiki links, Gējì (歌妓、歌伎、歌姬) links to the Chinese zh:藝妓 (泛稱) (Geisha) which redirects to zh:交際花 (courtesan). Much of the content of the English article Gējì has been translated from the Chinese article zh:歌女 (Song Girl), which links back to the English Sing-song girls. There is obviously confusion over terms which has led to issues with the article.
- Even prior to 清风与明月's involvement the article was a mess.
- 清风与明月 seems to be striving to bring the article inline with zh:歌女 (Song Girl), however as the two article are not a direct match this is inappropriate.
- Some content is unreferenced. Where content is referenced, the referencing is poor, some fails verification, others added more recently are to obscure offline sources which cannot be verified.
IMHO the content of articles on the Chinese Wikipedia should been ignored as there is no article that is a direct match to Gējì.
Although the article is close to the tipping point of WP:TNT, I would suggest WP:ATD-E is appropriate here, i.e. Reducing to stub a that is fully verified by reliable sources. --John B123 (talk) 09:01, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
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- I don't think the entry should be blown up or deleted. The original entry was "Yiji", an incomplete term, and the initial entry only had a few sentences, even citing an early personal blog. You will find that the initial entry was worse than the current one. 清风与明月 (talk) 18:03, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- I want to know if the discussion is over and when this entry can be edited? I can't edit it properly, and they say the entry will be deleted. Isn't this just targeting me, making me unable to edit at all and having to face the panic of the entry suddenly being deleted? So, result is? Thank you.。 清风与明月 (talk) 18:09, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
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- So, when can this entry be edited? 清风与明月 (talk) 08:34, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- I agree re: WP:ATD-E. Brocade River Poems 18:13, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- 。Hello.Sorry to bother you again.Can apply for an expert editor for this entry? I came across this. Perhaps this entry may need an expert to give an intermediate description of sexual issues.https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Wikipedia:Expert_editors 清风与明月 (talk) 14:05, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia was edited to include references to sexual performances, and in that one place, the exact same reference was even repeated twice in parallel in that one place, which is really a bit... 清风与明月 (talk) 14:13, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
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- Viewpoint by (name here)
- ....
@清风与明月, any response?
- Third opinion by IOHANNVSVERVS
- ....
References
- ^ "The love affair between the 《Jianglikan》lyrics and Chen Zilong and Liu Rushi".
- ^ Li Yueshen,95.
- ^ Blanchard, Lara Caroline Williams (2001). Visualizing Love and Longing in Song Dynasty Paintings of Women. University of Michigan. p. 77. ISBN 978-0-493-41557-4.
musical performance and sexual performance were, in fact, usually the forte of an individual known as a "singing girl" (geji 歌妓, literally "song courtesan").
Regarding the question of whether all geji are prostitutes, and whether Zhu Ziqing is rationalizing himself (I know his prose cannot be quoted, I just said that listening to music is equivalent to rationalizing looking for prostitutes?)
Quotation, translation, and commentary on Zhu
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一九二三年八月的一晚,我和平伯同游秦淮河;平伯是初泛,我是重来了。我们雇了一只“七板子”,在夕陽已去,皎月方来的时候,便下了船。于是桨声汩──汩,我们开始领略那晃荡着蔷薇色的历史的秦淮河的滋味了。One night in August 1923, Pingbo and I went on a trip to the Qinhuai River together; it was Pingbo's first time, and I was here again. We hired a "seven-board boat" and got off the boat when the sun had set and the bright moon was just coming. Then, with the sound of oars, we began to appreciate the Qinhuai River, which was swaying with its rosy history. First of all, Zhu Ziqing was just enjoying the scenery on a boat with his friends, and he did not go to find a prostitute. It happened that there was a singing girl on another boat, and he finally listened to her song. 秦淮河上原有一种歌妓,是以歌为业的。从前都在茶舫上,唱些大曲之类。每日午后一时起,什么时候止,却忘记了。晚上照样也有一回,也在黄晕的灯光里。我从前过南京时,曾随着朋友去听过两次。因为茶舫里的人脸太多了,觉得不大适意,终于听不出所以然。前年听说歌妓被取缔了,不知怎的,颇涉想了几次─—却想不出什么。这次到南京,先到茶舫上去看看,觉得颇是寂寥,令我无端的怅怅了。不料她们却仍在秦淮河里挣扎着,不料她们竟会纠缠到我们,我于是很张皇了,她们也乘着“七板子”,她们总是坐在舱前的。舱前点着石油汽灯,光亮眩人眼目:坐在下面的,自然是纤毫毕见了─—引诱客人们的力量,也便在此了。舱里躲着乐工等人,映着汽灯的余辉蠕动着;他们是永远不被注意的。每船的歌妓大约都是二人;天色一黑,她们的船就在大中桥外往来不息的兜生意。无论行着的船,泊着的船,都是要来兜揽的。这都是我后来推想出来的。那晚不知怎样,忽然轮着我们的船了。我们的船好好的停着,一只歌舫划向我们来了;渐渐和我们的船并着了。There used to be a kind of singing courtesans(gejis) on the Qinhuai River, who made their living by singing. They used to go to teahouses and sing some big songs. They started singing in the afternoon every day, and I have forgotten when they stopped. There was still a performance in the evening, also in the yellow light. When I went to Nanjing before, I went to listen to it twice with my friends. Because there were too many people in the teahouse, I felt uncomfortable and didn't hear anything. The year before last, I heard that gejis were banned. I don't know why, I thought about it several times, but I couldn't think of anything. This time when I went to Nanjing, I went to the teahouse first to take a look. I felt very deserted, which made me depressed for no reason. Unexpectedly, they were still struggling in the Qinhuai River. Unexpectedly, they would entangle us, so I was very panicked. They also rode "seven boards", and they always sat in the front of the cabin. There was a kerosene lamp in front of the cabin, and the light was dazzling: those sitting below could naturally see every detail - the power to seduce guests was also here. There were musicians and others on the boats, moving in the afterglow of the gas lamps, and they were never noticed. There were about two gejis on each boat; as soon as it got dark, their boats would go back and forth outside Dazhong Bridge to solicit business. Whether the boats were moving or moored, they were all here to solicit business. I figured this out later. I don't know how it happened that night, but it was suddenly our boat's turn. Our boat was parked well, and a geji came towards us, gradually catching up with our boat. Obviously, Zhu Ziqing did not go to visit prostitutes and then justify his behavior by saying that he was just listening to music. Obviously not. 烁烁的灯光逼得我们皱起了眉头;我们的风尘色全给它托出来了,这使我[足叔][足昔]不安了。那时一个伙计跨过船来,拿着摊开的歌折,就近塞向我的手里,“点几出吧!”他跨过来的时候,我们船上似乎有许多眼光跟着。同时相近的别的船上也似乎有许多眼睛炯炯的向我们船上看着。我真窘了!我也装出大方的样子,向歌妓们瞥了一眼,但究竟是不成的!我勉强将那歌折翻了一翻,却不曾看清了几个字;便赶紧递还那伙计,一面不好意思地说:“不要。我们……不要。”他便塞给平伯,平伯掉转头去,摇手说:“不要。”那人还腻着不走。平伯又回过脸来,摇着头道,“不要!”于是那人重到我处。我窘着再拒绝了他。他这才有所不屑似的走了。我的心立刻放下,如释了重负一般。我们就开始自白了。 The gleaming lights forced us to frown. How our expressions were highlighted by the lights made me feel uneasy. At that time, a waiter stepped across the boat, holding a spread-out song list, and stuffed it into my hand, "Order a few songs!" When he stepped across, it seemed that many eyes were following him on our boat. At the same time, it seemed that many eyes on other nearby boats were looking at our boat with sharp eyes. I was really embarrassed! I also pretended to be generous and glanced at the singing girls, but it was unsuccessful! I reluctantly flipped through the song list, but I couldn't see a few words clearly, so I quickly handed the song list back to the waiter, saying embarrassedly, "No. We... don't want to listen." He then stuffed it to Pingbo, Pingbo turned his head away, shook his hand and said, "No." The man still didn't leave. Pingbo turned his head again, shook his head and said, "No!" So the man came to man came to me again. I rejected him again in embarrassment. He left with disdain. My heart was immediately relieved, as if a heavy burden had been lifted. We started monologue. 清风与明月 (talk) 06:12, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
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- I think that even though Zhu Ziqing's statement cannot be used as a reference to the fact that gejis are not prostitutes, some of the issues he mentioned about gejis can be used. His description is the most direct description of the gejis active on the Qibanzi during the Republic of China period. 清风与明月 (talk) 08:40, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- I really don't want to whitewash anything, nor do I deny that they have sex with men, but they are all prostitutions? Are they all prostitutes? I know I don't want to talk too much here, but because I don't want to cause any unnecessary misunderstandings, I wrote out what Zhu Ziqing said in a more complete way. I know that Zhu Ziqing's words have no reference value, but Zhu Ziqing is not a “brothel frequenter”, and he did not rationalize or whitewash his. 清风与明月 (talk) 08:52, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think that even though Zhu Ziqing's statement cannot be used as a reference to the fact that gejis are not prostitutes, some of the issues he mentioned about gejis can be used. His description is the most direct description of the gejis active on the Qibanzi during the Republic of China period. 清风与明月 (talk) 08:40, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
What I want to clarify is, are all the sexual relations of gejis prostitution? If some of them engage in prostitution, does that mean that the gejis themselves are prostitutes? Therefore, when I say "they sometimes have sexual relations with men, but many of them are not prostitutes", is this contrary to the facts?
- As editors of Wikipedia,we can only represent in the article what the Reliable Sources say. You shouldn't be saying
they sometimes have sexual relations with men, but many of them are not prostitutes
unless there are reliable sources that explicitly say so. There is also no reason to bring up prostitutes or prostitution at all. All of the sources we have say Geji were courtesans, and it is generally understood in English that courtesans are not the same thing as average prostitutes. - I did not say anything about Zhu Ziqing's character, nor did I say he "whitewashed" anything. Frankly, your entire argument that "ji" in this instance doesn't mean prostitute is entirely disingenious because why else would he be following that line of thought with singing being different from prostitution? Why would he mention prostitution at all if the "ji" he was referring to were not, in fact, prostitutes. He isn't "rationalizing" him trying to solicit prostitutes, he is rationalizing to himself that wanting to listen to them sing isn't tantamount to engaging in intimacy with a prostitute.
- He speaks of moral law and being in the public eye and how his first thoughts were that they were prostitutes and that since prostitution is an inherently immoral profession, one should not want to listen to them sing. He then goes on to explain that despite this, he still hopes to hear them sing, and he then explains that he has two contradicting thoughts in his mind the first being his earlier statement that
we should not listen to their songs for fun
and second beinglistening to songs is different from soliciting prostitution
. - Moving on
It is impossible to judge whether all these gejis were prostitutes, but it is obvious that some did not engage in prostitution and only sang for a living.
- That isn't for us to decide, we can only represent what the reliable sources say.
is it biased to say that gejis themselves are engaged in prostitution? If there are people in the profession who are engaged in prostitution, can it be determined that all people in this profession are prostitutes? And can it be determined that this profession is both an artist and a sex worker?
- If the sources say that Geji engaged in sexual services, then that is what we must represent. It is not biased to represent what the sources are saying.
Due to the difference in times, in ancient China, gejis' performances were not considered to be specifically seducing men, nor were they considered to have no value in their art. In Zhu Ziqing's time, society was very unstable, the number of prostitutes was particularly large, and gejis almost disappeared. The remaining gejis were considered to be seducing men with their performances, and their art was also worthless. This is the reason for the change of times, not because they are all prostitutes.
- Once again, refer to "that isn't what the sources say".
I think what Zhu Ziqing said is not contradictory to the facts. He said that gejis are not prostitutes, singing is not equal to prostitution, which is also a statement of fact, isn't it?
- No, it isn't. The essay is not a statement of fact. He is detailing his personal experiences, as I've already explained. He never once in the entire essay says that Geji are not prostitutes and that the women did not engage in prostitution. He explicitly mentions "Selling songs" as not being prostitution and "listening to songs" not being equivalent to sexual intimacy with a prostitute. The reason he mentions these two things is because they came to his boat and offered him a songbook, and he refused because of the public perception of the immorality. However, after his refusal, he still desired to hear them sing, which leads to him rationalizing that selling songs is not the same as prostitution, and listening to songs isn't the same as engaging in sexual intercourse with a prostitute. He is not saying wholesale that the women are not in any way, shape, or form engaged in prostitution. He is specifically saying that his desire to listen to their songs is not akin to having sex with a prostitute.
这是一只载妓的板船
So he obviously knew the difference and didn't sugarcoat anything
- Your very evidence that here uses the same "妓" that earlier you chose not to translate as prostitute, which you are now choosing to translate as prostitute. Meanwhile, everytime I try and find a source to substantiate the claim that Geji didn't engage in prostitution, I just end up finding another source that says they did. An essay from the 1920s from a gentleman who was struggling with his own feelings about women he met due to societal views of them as prostitutes is not a significant enough opinion that it can be represented in the lead, nor does it negate the vast amount of source that say they engaged in sexual activity as part of their profession.
Or, heading farther east, what should we make of the geji, or "song courtesans," of the Song Dynasty of China, whose combination of beguiling music and prostitution seems to match a cultural type found everywhere from medi- eval Europe to early twentieth-century New Orleans
[1]- Moving on,
His description is the most direct description of the gejis active on the Qibanzi during the Republic of China period.
- His observations about the area can be used, but it shouldn't be something that is presented as a fact in WP:Wikivoice in the lead of the article. The problem that arises is the WP:RSCONTEXT of using what is effectively a mental debate he had with himself over wanting to hear their singing to state "Geji weren't prostitutes". His observations about the decline of Geji and their being banished from teahouses and having to perform on boats is fine, but you cannot use his source to say that Geji weren't prostitutes because he doesn't actually explicitly say that. It's WP:SYNTH to use his essay to do so. Brocade River Poems 10:50, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
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Not a third opinion, but...
I would suggest that both parties try to make your arguments more succinct; because I am sitting at my laptop and some of the single arguments are almost taking up literally the entire screen. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 02:05, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- The reliable sources represent Geji as courtesans, and say that they performed sexual services as part of their duty. This information should not be removed. That is the entirety of my argument. Brocade River Poems 02:35, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- I have made it very clear. I have not said that gejis do not have sexual relations, nor have I deleted the content about sexual relations. What I have always meant is that gejis sometimes have sexual relations with men, but this kind of sexual relations is not must expressed as prostitution. I also admit that there are indeed gejis who engage in prostitution, but that does not mean that all gejis are prostitution. The profession of gejis is to be entertainers. Even if they have sexual relations, it does not necessarily mean prostitution, and not all of them are high-class prostitutes. This point of view can be explained by many references in the entry. I don't want to discuss this with this person anymore. 清风与明月 (talk) 12:42, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- The profession of gejis in ancient China is the same as that of geishas in Japan and tawaifs in India. For example, the Wikipedia of Japanese geishas also says that some geishas engage in prostitution, but not all of them do. The Wikipedia of tawaifs in India also explains that they are sometimes mistresses of men, but not all of them engage in prostitution. Similarly, the sexual relationships of gejis in ancient China were not all for the purpose of prostitution, so why must they be equated with prostitution? This person now believes that the profession of gejis is essentially a prostitution profession, and that they sell their bodies for prostitution. This view is obviously very biased. I certainly will not agree to add "gejis are essentially prostitution" to the Wikipedia entry. It's really not because I don't want to accept other people's opinions, but because this understanding is biased. 清风与明月 (talk) 12:50, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- The names of singing and dancing venues in ancient China include yuefu(乐府), jiaofang(教坊), goulanwashe(勾栏瓦舍),[102]gelou(歌楼),[103] qinglou(青楼)[Label 2] and wuxie(舞榭).[104] Although the meanings of these singing and dancing venues have changed in different dynasties, but cannot equate all singing and dancing venues with brothels or places of prostitution.[Label 1]Starting from the Tang Dynasty, there was a custom among gejis that those who had a good relationship would become sworn sisters and were called "incense brothers(香火兄弟)" and "handkerchief sisters(手帕姐妹)".[Label 3]Not all gejis married nobles as concubines.Some gejis chose to marry musicians, and after marrying musicians, they usually retired from the profession and trained their children in artistic skills. Some gejis began teaching other women skills during their careers. Some gejis eventually became teachers who taught girls singing and dancing.Due to the low status of gejis, some were forced to lose their virginity, and some became men's mistresses involuntarily. This kind of sexual exploitation is not necessarily equivalent to prostitution.Some gejis also engaged in prostitution, such as Sha Cai in the Ming Dynasty, who was a geji and a prostitute at the same time and eventually contracted syphilis.[105][106]But this is a personal behavior and does not mean that all gejis are prostitution.[107]In addition, some pimps run brothel businesses in the name of gejis. The girls sing during the day and engage in prostitution at night. They are usually understood as prostitutes. 清风与明月 (talk) 13:20, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- The names of singing and dancing venues in ancient China include yuefu(乐府), jiaofang(教坊), goulanwashe(勾栏瓦舍),[102]gelou(歌楼),[103] qinglou(青楼)[Label 2] and wuxie(舞榭).[104] Although the meanings of these singing and dancing venues have changed in different dynasties, but cannot equate all singing and dancing venues with brothels or places of prostitution.[Label 1]Starting from the Tang Dynasty, there was a custom among gejis that those who had a good relationship would become sworn sisters and were called "incense brothers(香火兄弟)" and "handkerchief sisters(手帕姐妹)".[Label 3]Not all gejis married nobles as concubines.Some gejis chose to marry musicians, and after marrying musicians, they usually retired from the profession and trained their children in artistic skills. Some gejis began teaching other women skills during their careers. Some gejis eventually became teachers who taught girls singing and dancing.Due to the low status of gejis, some were forced to lose their virginity, and some became men's mistresses involuntarily. This kind of sexual exploitation is not necessarily equivalent to prostitution.Some gejis also engaged in prostitution, such as Sha Cai in the Ming Dynasty, who was a geji and a prostitute at the same time and eventually contracted syphilis.[105][106]But this is a personal behavior and does not mean that all gejis are prostitution.[107]In addition, some pimps run brothel businesses in the name of gejis. The girls sing during the day and engage in prostitution at night. They are usually understood as prostitutes.
- I think the above statement is enough. There is no need to add the statement that the essence of gejis is prostitution, they are high-class prostitutes, and their profession is to prostitution for the rich on Wikipedia. I think what I said is very clear. So, I think for this statement, can go to the Wikipedia of Chinese prostitution, etc., instead of the Wikipedia of gejis. The same principle can be referred to the Wikipedia of geisha and tawaif. 清风与明月 (talk) 13:21, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
References
- ^ Gioia, Ted (2015). Love songs: a hidden history. New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-935757-4.
- ^ Zurndorfer, Harriet T. (26 August 2011). "Prostitutes and Courtesans in the Confucian Moral Universe of Late Ming China (1550–1644)". International Review of Social History. 56 (S19): 197–216. doi:10.1017/S0020859011000411. ISSN 1469-512X.
Here is everything I want to say about Geji's sexual issues.
I think I have already take the middle context and edited it. I have already written that providing sexual services is part of the ancient Chinese geji profession. I don't understand why it was deleted, and I have provided available references.
Here I will talk about my edit. At the same time, not all geji are prostitution. Some people engage in prostitution does not mean that all people engage in prostitution. I don't think this is whitewashing. On the contrary, it is biased to label this group of female entertainers in history as necessarily engaging in prostitution and that they are all engaged in prostitution.
It is obviously not true to say that all Western scholars believe that gejis are prostitution women, that they are entertainers and prostitutes/sex workers. Because some Western reference materials I read wrote that there are sexual relationships, but they did not say that sex must be defined as prostitution. If take it out of context and think that all Western scholars say that they are prostitution, I don’t think it is appropriate.
They were professional entertainers who sometimes engaged in sexual activity with patrons.Nevertheless, ancient chinese gejis were more famous for their outstanding musical and literary talents than their sexual services.(I also kept the description of them having sex with men, and added that they were more famous for their musical and literary talents than their sexual services. This is also based on reference materials and is the view of Western scholar.https://web.archive.org/web/20240106045528/http://people.hws.edu/blanchard/ASN304/syllabus10.html The scholar said:“Look up the word "courtesan" in a dictionary, say Merriam-Webster's tenth edition, and one finds the following definition: "a prostitute with a courtly, wealthy, or upper-class clientele." Historically, however, the courtesans of China or Japan have been women whose appeal lay primarily in their surpassing musical and literary cultivation, not their sexual services. The demimonde of the elite Chinese "singing girl" or the Japanese geisha across the centuries.”)
Gejis have engaged in sexual activity with patrons,the sexual relationship between a geji and her patron sometimes was a cohabitation relationship.(I also kept the description of sex. The reference I cited here is from a Chinese scholarhttps://www.zjujournals.com/soc/CN/abstract/abstract8785.shtml. This is about Liu Rushi and Chen Zilong, saying that they lived together because they were in love, not because of prostitution. My description is that sometimes gejis lived together, and I don't think I have sugarcoated anything, because it is true that not everything is prostitution.)
Although sexual services were one of the services provided by a geji, her identity was that of an entertainer.(I even kept the description of sexual services. But combined with what I said before and after, they are really not essentially prostitution. It is also a fact that some people engage in prostitution, but not everyone does. So I don't think it is necessary to describe them as entertainers and prostitutes/sex workers here.New Era Chinese-English Dictionary, English definition: geji or singing girl is a female singer and dancer.https://books.google.com.hk/books?id=6VEZAQAAIAAJ&q=%22Geji+singing%22&redir_esc=y)
作者:Timothy James Brook([加]卜正民),译者:Fangjun(方骏) (2004).“The Confusions of Pleasure: Commerce and Culture in Ming China(纵乐的困惑:明代的商业与文化)”.Oxford:生活·读书·新知三联书店.ISBN 9787108020062. 262—264)This is also a book by a Western scholar. He did not define geji's sex must as prostitution. This book also has an English version, and it seems to use "geisha" to describe geji.Here, it is said that the geji/geisha exist outside the marriage and concubinage system. These women are well-educated. The gejis are a manifestation of a specific cultural meaning in history. The geji profession reshapes the purely sexual relationship of prostitutes into a cultural relationship, or even a like-minded interaction. When men pursue the confidantes of the talented scholars and beautiful women in romantic stories, but cannot find them in the arranged marriages and money marriages in reality, the geji/geisha appear.So, what I said is that they should not be defined as necessarily engaging in prostitution. This is appropriate. Gejis can be a cultural relationship, or even a relationship established by like-minded people. So their professional nature should not be defined as prostitution.)
Because I had not finished editing, it was deleted. That's what I want to say. I deny the accusation that I edited maliciously and added useless references. The content I added all has references, which are also usable, and some are even research by Western scholars. 清风与明月 (talk) 12:10, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- Two responses. A syllabus is a dubious source for inclusion on Wikipedia, to my understanding. Furthermore, it says
lay primarily in their surpassing musical and literary cultivation, not their sexual services
which in no way implies that the ancient Chinese courtesans didn't engage in sexual services, but that their musical and literary talent was their primary appeal. Secondly, re: https://www.zjujournals.com/soc/CN/abstract/abstract8785.shtml, as I stated previously, the abstract for this article statesthe love between Chen Zilong , a noted writer in the late Ming Dynasty and Liu Rushi , a prostitute noted for her beauty and literary talent.
- Believe it or not, courtesans and prostitutes and the like can fall in love and get married. They aren't mutually exclusionary criteria. Brocade River Poems 01:46, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
Regarding the statement on sexual issues, I am not responding to a specific person, but I am here to popularize science
。 清风与明月 (talk) 06:55, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- What I proposed is that I admit that they have sex, and I have not denied it. The Chinese translation of this book by a Western scholar is what I said. He did not say that sex exists must for prostitution. The Chinese scholar did not say that Liu Rushi was a prostitute, let alone that she was prostitution. I don't understand, what is the nature of the geji profession? What is the fact that the geji profession cannot be changed no matter what? What is it that they are under a guise? What is whitewashing and beautification? What is it that sex is prostitution no matter what? 清风与明月 (talk) 06:56, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- From my perspective, what's wrong with having sex? The fact is that it does not exist for the purpose of prostitution. The profession of a geji is a female singer and dancer, and some are poets. Sex does not necessarily exist for prostitution, and it is secondary. This is the same as Japanese geishas and Indian tawaifs. Sexual relations can even be "monogamous". So I don't think it's reasonable to write in the text that "prostitution is part of the profession of a geji", "the profession of a geji is to sell art and prostitution at the same time", "the essence of a geji is prostitution, but she serves rich men, they are doing prostitution under the guise of serving rich men, and even men whitewash them". At the same time, the geji entry has been broadly classified into the Chinese prostitution page below, just like the Indian tawaif, it has been classified in a broad sense, but the text does explain that sexual issues are not necessarily prostitution. 清风与明月 (talk) 06:57, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- In ancient China, gejis could not get married during their profession and could only get married after leaving their profession. They had their own lifestyle and they also had the ceremony of sworn sisterhood. I don't think they should be defined as essentially prostitution. 清风与明月 (talk) 06:57, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
The Chinese scholar did not say that Liu Rushi was a prostitute, let alone that she was prostitution.
- If you download the PDF, the Abstract quite literally says
The Collection Jianglijian and the Love between Chen Zilong and Liu Rushi LI Yue-shen Department of International Culture Studies, Zhejiang University, Hangzhou 310027, China) Abstract: Many historical facts were clarified thanks to the scholar Chen Yinke who did a detailed textual research in his Anecdotal Biography of Liu Rushi on the love between Chen Zilong, a noted writer in the late Ming Dynasty and Liu Rushi, a prostitute noted for her beauty and literary talent. But it is necessary to make some supplements and corrections regarding the love between Chen and Liu, due to an increase in related material these years.
Brocade River Poems 23:14, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- From my perspective, what's wrong with having sex? The fact is that it does not exist for the purpose of prostitution. The profession of a geji is a female singer and dancer, and some are poets. Sex does not necessarily exist for prostitution, and it is secondary. This is the same as Japanese geishas and Indian tawaifs. Sexual relations can even be "monogamous". So I don't think it's reasonable to write in the text that "prostitution is part of the profession of a geji", "the profession of a geji is to sell art and prostitution at the same time", "the essence of a geji is prostitution, but she serves rich men, they are doing prostitution under the guise of serving rich men, and even men whitewash them". At the same time, the geji entry has been broadly classified into the Chinese prostitution page below, just like the Indian tawaif, it has been classified in a broad sense, but the text does explain that sexual issues are not necessarily prostitution. 清风与明月 (talk) 06:57, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'll reiterate my earlier comments:
- There are several issues here:
- Following the interwiki links, Gējì (歌妓、歌伎、歌姬) links to the Chinese zh:藝妓 (泛稱) (Geisha) which redirects to zh:交際花 (courtesan). Much of the content of the English article Gējì has been translated from the Chinese article zh:歌女 (Song Girl), which links back to the English Sing-song girls. There is obviously confusion over terms which has led to issues with the article.
- Even prior to 清风与明月's involvement the article was a mess.
- 清风与明月 seems to be striving to bring the article inline with zh:歌女 (Song Girl), however as the two article are not a direct match this is inappropriate.
- Some content is unreferenced. Where content is referenced, the referencing is poor, some fails verification, others added more recently are to obscure offline sources which cannot be verified.
- IMHO the content of articles on the Chinese Wikipedia should be ignored as there is no article that is a direct match to Gējì.
- Although the article is close to the tipping point of WP:TNT, I would suggest WP:ATD-E is appropriate here, i.e. Reducing to stub a that is fully verified by reliable sources. --John B123 (talk) 08:43, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- 1. I mentioned earlier that Sing song girl was the name for Chinese sex workers at the time, not the real translation of singing girl. Sing song girl is a modern term. Refer to https://m.thepaper.cn/yidian_promDetail.jsp?contid=9101122&from=yidian, which is not the real translation of singing girl or geji. Moreover, when this entry was still called "Yiji", it was not corresponding. This is a problem of the difference between Chinese and English Wikipedia, not my problem. This problem existed before I came. 清风与明月 (talk) 08:50, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- 。 清风与明月 (talk) 08:55, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- 。2. Before I came, this entry was called "Yiji". The original entry only had a few sentences and even quoted the earliest personal blog. 清风与明月 (talk) 08:55, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- 。3. I am trying to improve the entry, but because I have limited time, it is impossible to improve it overnight. So I plan to delete the content appropriately, adjust the grammar, and add references after the entry can be edited. 清风与明月 (talk) 08:56, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- 。4. I don't think this entry ,should be fully restored to the original entry like "Yiji". 清风与明月 (talk) 08:56, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, due to the word count, I can't send it out all at once and can only send it out in several times. 清风与明月 (talk) 08:57, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- Hello. Is this entry editable now? How should it be edited, should it be defined as prostitution itself? Or is the current version of the page description enough? 清风与明月 (talk) 09:04, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not suggesting the original version be restored, I'm suggesting that the article is cut back to the content that can be verified by reliable sources, not personal interpretation of sources. As Gējì and zh:歌女 (Song Girl) are not direct matches then copying content from the Chinese article is not appropriate. --John B123 (talk) 09:12, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
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- 。胡介祉《茨村咏史新乐府》:“崇祯辛巳年,田贵妃父宏遇进香普陀,道过金阊,渔猎声妓,遂挟沅以归。”Tian Hongyu had robbing geji, so it is impossible to judge whether Yang Wan was eloping. This is not love, nor is it prostitution.Moreover, Tian Hongyu only let Yang Wan be an art teacher to teach other girls. Yang Wan was also a teacher. This is mentioned in the Chinese reference materials.https://www.yangtse.com/zncontent/774163.html
- As for the entry about Yang Wan(Geji), I did not edit it maliciously. I object to the accusation, and this entry does contain errors. In the historical records, it does not say that Yang Wan found many lovers after getting married while she had a husband. This Chinese reference is an official Chinese news website, and it was written by a reporter. It said that it was just a social activity, and it did not say that she found many lovers after getting married.Moreover, Yang Wan only started looking for a lover after her husband's death, and she did not find many lovers after getting married.https://www.yangtse.com/zncontent/774163.html
- Moreover, Yang Wan and Wang Wei(Geji) are not lesbians (I don't mean to discriminate, I'm just stating the facts). The content of this entry is wrong from the beginning. Yang Wan and Wang Wei are good friends. This is the culture of ancient Chinese geji. Like-minded geji will become sworn sisters. They are not lesbians (I don't mean to discriminate, I'm just stating the culture of ancient Chinese geji).https://new.qq.com/rain/a/20201021A043X000
- I didn't need to lie to anyone. I changed the article because I really felt that the article about Yang Wan didn't match the facts and was too disgusting (not the misconception that she was a lesbian, but the slander that she had many lovers after marriage and had a lover relationship with Tian Hongyu). I didn't need to whitewash anything. So I object to the accusation against me. 清风与明月 (talk) 16:35, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- I’m not really that knowledgeable on this topic but it seems to me that there must be some kind of miscommunication going on here. @BrocadeRiverPoems is not advocating for the article to include the word “prostitution” or has made the claim that “all” the geji were prostitutes which seems to be one of your main contentions. They are just saying(I should probably take the time to ask, what are your pronouns BRP?) that you need reliable sources to back up any major claims you’ve made. In this case, the claim that “many were not prostitutes” should be backed by reliable sources. Just to clarify, and this is really important, no one is saying that they even disagree with this viewpoint. That’s not what they’re concerned about. It’s not about what one thinks or even knows is correct because that doesn’t matter here, see Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth. This statement your pushing for must be sourced. In fact BRP has already mentioned that they are not concerned with whether that is true or not.
- @清风与明月 This is the one thing you should recognize before responding. In fact, I don’t think this conversation can move forward if you don’t understand the fundamental point that nobody is arguing against the position that “many geji weren’t prostitutes”, which you haven’t yet realized. The other editors just want you to confirm this with reliable sources.
- I hope I was able to condense their points for you. This was already explained by them but I thought perhaps you would benefit from a summary of their concerns. The involved users here can feel free to correct me on any matter where I may have misinterpreted their words. Someguywhosbored (talk) 22:26, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
(I should probably take the time to ask, what are your pronouns BRP?)
She/They is fine. And yes, my point has been the entire time that they cannot make unsubstantiated claims, nor can they remove sourced claims with claims that are supported by unencyclopedic sources. Brocade River Poems 23:43, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
This Chinese reference is an official Chinese news website, and it was written by a reporter. It said that it was just a social activity, and it did not say that she found many lovers after getting married.Moreover, Yang Wan only started looking for a lover after her husband's death, and she did not find many lovers after getting married.https://www.yangtse.com/zncontent/774163.html
- This isn't a reliable source. The English Wikipedia favors sources in English for verifibility. Moreover, a book published by academic scholars trumps a news article written by a reporter. The source in English said "lovers", likewise to the other point, the academically published source said "eloped" not abducted. Moreover, that source you linked says
茅元仪死后,随崇祯宠妃田贵妃的父亲田弘遇到北京,后来李自成攻陷北京,杨宛逃回南京,死于强盗之手。
, which translates toAfter Mao Yuan Yi's death, she accompanied Tian Hong Yu, the father of Chongzhen's favorite concubine Tian Guifei, to Beijing. Later, when Li Zicheng sacked Beijing, Yang Wan fled back to Nanjing and died at the hands of robbers
. The word used is随
which does not, according to the dictionary, mean abducted. Moreover, Yang Wan and Wang Wei(Geji) are not lesbians
I never said they were.- https://new.qq.com/rain/a/20201021A043X000
- Again, this is not a reliable source.
I changed the article because I really felt that the article about Yang Wan didn't match the facts and was too disgusting (not the misconception that she was a lesbian, but the slander that she had many lovers after marriage and had a lover relationship with Tian Hongyu). I didn't need to whitewash anything. So I object to the accusation against me.
- You just admitted that you changed it because WP:IDONTLIKEIT,
While some editors may dislike certain kinds of information, that alone isn't enough for something to be deleted
. Brocade River Poems 23:40, 10 September 2024 (UTC) - Here let me try this, with some machine assistance.
- 我不是说她们是妓女,我是说你需要用可靠的消息来源来支持你的说法。在评估资料来源方面,你失败了。你使用的资料来源不可靠。这就是问题所在。您不明白这一点。这样就很难达成共识。编辑英文维基百科需要一定的英语水平。这样的误解于事无补。必须使用翻译器也于事无补。需要用英语交流,但你不能正确理解。问题大了。不是说恶意,而是说意外伤害。缺乏对英语的理解。如果听不懂,一不小心就会无谓地争吵,增加错误,无法正确达成共识。问题不在于内容,而在于无意的错误行为。造成太多工作。我从没说过歌妓都是妓女。“Sometimes "是指偶尔。 歌妓是高级,偶尔提供性服务。这是学者的说法。我们只能代表学者的观点。必须提供高质量的资料来支持声明。 中文或英文。必须是高质量的。 古代资料不太好。太古老。个人观点也不好。来源必须明确支持信息,而不是推断。 Brocade River Poems (She/They) 03:19, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
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Article Name?
Should the name of the article really be Geji? Would Mingji(名妓) perhaps be more appropriate in terms of WP:NOTABILITY? I've seen Mingji used more often in sources than Geji, even the Chinese journal article that was provided for the basis of them not being prostitutes above refers to Liu Rushi in Chinese as Mingji. Likewise, this source says but prostitutes of the highest rank, the mingji, 名妓 celebrated prostitutes, or courtesans. Like the many-talented gentlewomen, mingji were erudite, talented, and artistic. While guixiu were educated, respectable women in society, mingji were the guixiu's fallen counterpart. While guixiu were women for whom activities outside the household were usually discouraged, courtesans, on the other hand, because of their dealings with rich merchants and famous literati, were professional women who led public lives. Unlike lower-class prostitutes, mingji had the opportunities for literary pursuits such as poetry, dance, music, painting, calligraphy, opera singing, and performing. Although most courtesans were trained to play the pipa 琵琶 and the zheng 筝, some were accomplished on the qin, and so referred to as qinji-琴妓 qin prostitutes.
[1]
- ^ Shephard, Tim; Leonard, Anne, eds. (2013). The Routledge companion to music and visual culture. New York: Routledge. ISBN 978-0-415-62925-6.
I hope to give me a month to improve this entry.
I hope to give me a month to improve this entry. After I have improved it, we can discuss what needs to be modified. I will improve the grammar and reference materials. 清风与明月 (talk) 15:37, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that this is the best thing to do. Kowal2701 (talk) 15:06, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
- This question was already answered and archived: Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 1234 § I would like to apply for one month of editing time for the geji entry. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 15:45, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reply. I understand. I just don't know when the edit of this entry will be developed. Now everyone is stuck here and no one is editing this entry anymore. 清风与明月 (talk) 17:22, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
- This question was already answered and archived: Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 1234 § I would like to apply for one month of editing time for the geji entry. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 15:45, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
**To Whom Misinterprets Geji as Prostitutes**
- Core Points and Citations on Why Geji Are Not Prostitutes
- 1. The Role and Duties of Geji**
- **"Dream of the Red Chamber"** (Cao Xueqin):
- **Chapter 70**: “Jia Mu quickly asked Fengjie to bring several singing and dancing geji.” — In this context, geji are entertainers and do not provide sexual services. - **Chapter 90**: “Jia Mu laughed and said: ‘Please bring the singing and dancing geji, let’s all listen to them.’” — Geji's primary duties involve performing arts, providing music and dance.
- **"The Book of Rites"**:
- **"Book of Rites: Record of Music"**: “Music performers, singers, dancers, are included.” — Geji are defined primarily as individuals engaged in music and dance performances.
- 2. Distinction Between Geji and Prostitutes**
- **"Records of the Grand Historian"** (Sima Qian):
- **"Records of the Grand Historian: Biographies of Li General"**: “At that time, there were over a hundred geji, known for their singing and dancing, their names were well-known in the capital.” — Geji were recognized for their artistic talents, holding a higher social status.
- **"Rites of Zhou"**:
- **"Rites of Zhou: The Office of Music"**: “Geji have official duties, managing the rites of music.” — Geji had formal roles in rituals, responsible for performances.
- 3. Definition of Prostitutes**
- **"Strange Stories from a Chinese Studio"** (Pu Songling):
- **"Strange Stories from a Chinese Studio: The Ghost Story of the Beautiful Maiden"**: “One day, a prostitute came to see me, with tears in her eyes, recounting her sufferings.” — Prostitutes were explicitly associated with sexual services.
- **"The Annals of the Eastern Zhou"** (Feng Menglong):
- **"The Annals of the Eastern Zhou"**: “In the city, there were prostitutes who specialized in receiving clients.” — Prostitutes' duties were centered around sexual services.
- Conclusion
Based on the above citations and analysis, it is clear that geji and prostitutes had distinct roles and duties in ancient times. Geji were primarily involved in music and dance performances, occupying a higher social status in the entertainment industry, whereas prostitutes were associated with sexual services and had a lower social standing. When evaluating historical figures and their roles, it is essential to rely on concrete evidence rather than assumptions or misunderstandings. Otherwise, such evaluations could lead to enduring, unjust marks on individuals' reputations. Understanding historical context and cultural differences is crucial to making fair assessments of people from the past, as it respects the integrity of history. Joss1224 (talk) 14:08, 15 September 2024 (UTC)— Joss1224 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Literally nobody is making the claim that Geji are prostitutes, but these sources are useful for some information about Geji. The source of the content dispute was making claims without reliable sources that explicitly supported them. But let me address some of these sources:
- Dream of the Red Chamber Is a novel, it cannot be used.
- The Book of Rites that you cite Doesn't say anything regarding whether they were, or weren't, involved in sex work.
- Records of the Grand Historian: Biographies of Li General Doesn't say explicitly that they didn't engage in sex work.
- Rites of Zhou No mention of sex work.
- Strange Tales from a Chinese Studio Again, this is fiction.
- The Annals of the Eastern Zhou Saying there were prostitutes in a city doesn't say anything about Geji.
Based on the above citations and analysis, it is clear that geji and prostitutes had distinct roles and duties in ancient times. Geji were primarily involved in music and dance performances, occupying a higher social status in the entertainment industry, whereas prostitutes were associated with sexual services and had a lower social standing
- The analysis is WP:SYNTH. We cannot take sources that describe prostitutes, and sources that describe geji, with neither source explicitly saying that they had no overlap and claim that they didn't. Moreover, there is documented academic sources which discuss Geji and Common Prostitutes, which I already reference elsewhere, that says that Geji and courtesans at large did sometimes provide sexual services as part of their job, and were seen as higher class than the common prostitute, especially in the Ming Dynasty, where men could gain no social capital from hiring a common prostitute. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 08:14, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- Addressing Misinterpretations and Fallacious Reasoning**
- The claim that geji were inherently prostitutes, based on isolated historical examples and without concrete evidence explicitly separating the two, reflects a flawed logical approach. This reasoning is akin to the following flawed analogy:
- Analogy:**
- Assume there is a claim that "IT engineers are thieves" because a certain thief happened to be an IT engineer. Using this reasoning, one might argue that all IT engineers are thieves unless proven otherwise. This approach is logically incorrect because it relies on an isolated case to make a sweeping generalization. In reality, most IT engineers are not thieves, and such an assertion lacks substantial evidence and ignores the broader context.
- Historical Misinterpretation:**
- Similarly, the argument suggesting that geji were automatically prostitutes because some courtesans provided sexual services conflates different roles and contexts. Geji were primarily entertainers—performing music and dance—whereas common prostitutes had a distinct, lower social status and primary role involving sexual services. Using historical sources that describe courtesans' roles and then applying those descriptions universally to geji without clear evidence of overlap is akin to assuming that all IT engineers are thieves based on one instance.
- Conclusion:**
- When evaluating historical roles and social statuses, it is crucial to rely on well-documented, specific evidence that directly addresses the roles and responsibilities in question. Broad generalizations based on isolated examples not only misrepresent historical roles but also unfairly stigmatize entire groups. Accurate historical analysis requires careful distinction between roles and contexts, rather than relying on misleading analogies or assumptions.
- ---
- This response clarifies that making broad generalizations based on isolated examples is flawed reasoning, and it underscores the importance of specific, contextual evidence when discussing historical roles and social statuses. 103.49.92.190 (talk) 15:54, 16 September 2024 (UTC) — 103.49.92.190 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- I would kindly sugget familiarzing yourself with WP:Verifiability and WP:NPOV before engaging in content disputes as you seem to be new. Particularly,
All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.
. That said, I am highly suspicious of this sudden interest in Geji by newcomers who are making the same (rather admittedly pointless arguments) as the disputed editor, which leads me to believe there has potentially been offsite canvassing to this issue. You are tilting at the same windmills as User:清风与明月. Nobody is arguing that Geji are inherently prostitutes. Nobody is trying to include the word prostitute. 清风与明月 is simply making negative statements such as "Many weren't prostitutes" without supporting it with any substantial sources that actually say that. Using historical sources that describe courtesans' roles and then applying those descriptions universally to geji without clear evidence of overlap is akin to assuming that all IT engineers are thieves based on one instance.
- There is an abundance of reliable secondary sources that say that Geji sometimes engaged in sexual services with their clients. Conversely, a single source has yet to be provided that says Geji did not engage in sex as part of their work. One source 清风与明月 provided to argue against all Geji engaging in sexwork even flatout called Liu Rushi a prostitute in the abstract. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 19:53, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- I would kindly sugget familiarzing yourself with WP:Verifiability and WP:NPOV before engaging in content disputes as you seem to be new. Particularly,
年轻的古惑仔 has received a level 4 warning on their user talk for their comments.
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- Amazing. BRP has already clarified in multiple instances that nobody including her, is claiming that Geji were prostitutes. And yet this point is still being repeated constantly. The problem is that any information in an article needs reliable sources. I’ve already stated in the past that this issue literally cannot move forward until this is acknowledged. And yet it seems the advice isn’t being heeded. Someguywhosbored (talk) 00:40, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
- @BrocadeRiverPoems At this point, I don’t think there’s any point in responding to this disruptive user anymore. I initially assumed good faith and thought this may have been a communication error, but clearly, he’s displaying WP:ICANTHEARYOU by not acknowledging the fundamental points that have been outlined to him. There’s nothing to really gain from further engagement. He already has an SPI report so I’d just wait until a checkuser intervenes. Someguywhosbored (talk) 05:33, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
- I understand. I just wanted to give them plenty of benefit since there did seem to be a language barrier. I'll stop responding to them. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 05:48, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah I thought the miscommunication may have been caused by a language barrier. That’s why I assumed good faith at first. But at this point, the arguments have already been summarized and repeated to him constantly. He either can’t, or is unwilling to understand. The final straw for me was the high likelihood of him socking on here.
- I sort of feel bad and want to help this person get a better grasp of things on Wikipedia. But after the socking, I’ve lost confidence in this users ability to act here constructively. Maybe if given enough time, he can rectify his mistakes and become a valued member. I’d encourage that in fact.
- @年轻的古惑仔 I’m going to try one more time to properly inform you. No one here wants to add the claim that “Geji were prostitutes” in the article. Your main contention isn’t even what we are focused on. So please don’t think she’s(brocade) out to spread disinformation and hatred against Chinese people. That has never been her intention. We are just asking for any statement that you add into the article to include a citation from a reliable source. That’s it. If you respond with another comment without addressing this, then there is no reason to continue this discussion anymore. This is your final chance to acknowledge it before we go completely silent on the matter. Someguywhosbored (talk) 06:38, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
- @BrocadeRiverPoems Nonetheless, I can say with confidence that you’ve done the best you can to properly inform this user. Good job! Now the ball is in his court. Someguywhosbored (talk) 06:58, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
- I understand. I just wanted to give them plenty of benefit since there did seem to be a language barrier. I'll stop responding to them. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 05:48, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
- @BrocadeRiverPoems At this point, I don’t think there’s any point in responding to this disruptive user anymore. I initially assumed good faith and thought this may have been a communication error, but clearly, he’s displaying WP:ICANTHEARYOU by not acknowledging the fundamental points that have been outlined to him. There’s nothing to really gain from further engagement. He already has an SPI report so I’d just wait until a checkuser intervenes. Someguywhosbored (talk) 05:33, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
- Amazing. BRP has already clarified in multiple instances that nobody including her, is claiming that Geji were prostitutes. And yet this point is still being repeated constantly. The problem is that any information in an article needs reliable sources. I’ve already stated in the past that this issue literally cannot move forward until this is acknowledged. And yet it seems the advice isn’t being heeded. Someguywhosbored (talk) 00:40, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
sex(I am not denying that there are people who engage in prostitution, I am just saying that the profession has more attributes)
I think that women's sexual issues, such sensitive content, need to be rigorous and objective. For female performers, sexual issues can even lead to deep-rooted misunderstandings. Moreover, there is a fundamental difference between living with or having sex with a man and having sex or sometimes sex transactions with male clients at random. There is also a difference between having a stable lover or sponsor and prostituting for several clients at the same time.Geji's sexual problems, many people are more similar to mistress in English,a woman who has an ongoing extramarital sexual relationship with a man,a mistress is someone who maintains a long-term sexual or caring relationship with a man, which can involve love or money. I think geji is more similar to the English word mistress in terms of sex. 清风与明月 (talk) 20:39, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
- Geji is a female singer and dancer. Most of them are just mistresses in terms of sex. The identity of mistress is not even the content of this profession. It is just that women were considered the "second gender" in ancient times. Female artists like geji are not allowed to get married while they are engaged in their profession. In order to protect themselves or want to improve their status, they become mistresses of a man. Sexual issues for women are sensitive, and female performers are even more sensitive, so there is really no need to define a profession as essentially prostitution or high-class prostitutes. 清风与明月 (talk) 20:53, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
- And this is the same problem that we'll continue to run into. Statements like
I think Geji is more similar to the English word mistress
. Unless you can find a source that says that, the article cannot say that. - Another academically published source:
Throughout Chinese history, prostitution has been linked to arts and entertainment such as dancing and singing. Early records from China showed the two Chinese characters representing "prostitution" (ji妓 and chang姐) as a "female musician." Prostitution has been inseparable from entertainment, as listen to prostitutes meant "listen to music"; watch prostitutes meant "watch dancing and singing." Through historicizing the relationships between prostitution and music, this chapter seeks to scrutinize the dynamics of the historical and contemporary mutual construction of gender between music perform- ers (courtesans and hostesses) and music receivers (male elite and clients).
Chinese term for prostitute, yi ji, means "a female artist, performer, or courtesan." The word ji is related to words meaning ingenuity, talent, and ability. Courtesans were trained in theatrical, musical, and liter- ary composition and performance. During the Tang dynasty, the definition of prostitute was a female entertainer specialized in singing and dancing skills. The highest-ranking courtesans were those who had outstanding skills in chess, calligraphy, painting, singing, composing poems, and playing a wide array of musical instruments. During the Ming dynasty, courtesans were labeled according to their specializations, including poet courtesans (shiji), song courtesans (geji), and actresses (you).
- Harris, Rachel; Pease, Rowan; Tan, Shrz Ee, eds. (2013). Gender in Chinese music. Eastman Rochester studies in ethnomusicology. Rochester, NY: Univ. of Rochester Press. ISBN 978-1-58046-443-7. Page 67.
- Brocade River Poems (She/They) 09:50, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
I publish my edited content here. I have never denied that there are people engaged in prostitution, nor do I want to whitewash anything. It’s just that this profession is really not essentially a prostitution profession.
This is the content I planned according to the entries of tawaif, qiyan, and geisha. I will introduce it at the beginning and leave the sexual issues in the main text.
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location=New York |editor-last2=Leonard |editor-first2=Anne}}</ref>,they are also trained in etiquette and tea culture.<ref>{{cite web |title=The obscured shadow: Women Activities in the Tea Industry and Tea Culture in the Tang Dynasty |url=https://libap.nhu.edu.tw:8081/Ejournal/AW01350313.pdf |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240917091859/https://libap.nhu.edu.tw:8081/Ejournal/AW01350313.pdf |archive-date=17 September 2024}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |title=Tea Science | The Elegance and Refinement of Song Dynasty Tea Culture (Part 2) |url=https://cloud.kepuchina.cn/newSearch/imgText?id=6986718691623546880 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240917091859/https://cloud.kepuchina.cn/newSearch/imgText?id=6986718691623546880 |archive-date=17 September 2024}}</ref>Although the social status of gejis was not high and they belonged to the lower class as performers, but they were hired to perform at banquets, official celebrations, court gatherings and even religious activities because of their outstanding skills.<ref>{{cite web |title=The identity and fate of ancient female musicians |url=https://m.thepaper.cn/newsDetail_forward_1442631 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240917091859/https://m.thepaper.cn/newsDetail_forward_1442631 |archive-date=17 September 2024}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |title=敦煌乐伎同台竞技 "顶流"天团"C位"好难选 |url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240217131019/https://gs.ifeng.com/c/8KxF1rHVU8d |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240917091859/https://web.archive.org/web/20240217131019/https://gs.ifeng.com/c/8KxF1rHVU8d |archive-date=17 September 2024}}</ref>Geji originated from the court culture of the Xia Dynasty, and then spread to the people. <ref>{{cite web |title=The development of the geji system and ci poetry under the social transformation from the late Tang Dynasty to the early Northern Song Dynasty |url=https://epaper.ntpc.edu.tw/index/EpaSubShow.aspx?CDE=EPS2013060712261095K&e=EPA20130402112621WRM |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240917091859/https://epaper.ntpc.edu.tw/index/EpaSubShow.aspx?CDE=EPS2013060712261095K&e=EPA20130402112621WRM |archive-date=17 September 2024}}</ref>The geji system gradually disappeared during the late Qing Dynasty and the Republic of China,they were officially replaced by prostitutes.<ref>{{Cite book |last=Gail |first=Hershatter |title=危险的愉悦: 20世纪上海的娼妓问题与现代性(Dangerous Pleasures: Prostitution and Modernity in Twentieth-Century Shanghai Translator: 韩敏中、盛宁) |date=2022 |publisher=University of California Press |isbn=978-0520204393 |pages=42-43}}</ref>Gejis made great contributions to ancient Chinese music, dance, poetry, painting and drama.Some gejis were poets themselves,tang poetry and song dynasty lyric poetry was also sung by geji. Gejis would perform the poems as songs, which played a role in the dissemination of the ancient Chinese poems and lyrics.<ref>{{Cite web |title=On the Characteristics of the Communication of Song Ci Geji |url=http://ccj.pku.edu.cn/Article/info?aid=286659111 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240917091859/http://ccj.pku.edu.cn/Article/info?aid=286659111 |archive-date=September 17, 2024}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |title='The beauty lies in women'—On the role of Gejis in poetry of the Tang and Song Dynasties |url=http://ccj.pku.edu.cn/Article/info?aid=286663868 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240917091859/http://ccj.pku.edu.cn/Article/info?aid=286663868 |archive-date=September 17, 2024}}</ref>As the main actor of zaju, gejis directly participated in the stage performance of zaju and also participated in the creation of poetry and sanqu. Gejis' exquisite singing, dancing and storytelling skills had a great influence on the dance and singing of zaju in the Yuan Dynasty.<ref>{{Cite web |title=Yiji in the Yuan Dynasty and the Lyrics, Songs, Dances and Rap Arts |url=https://www.alljournals.cn/view_abstract.aspx?pcid=01BA20E8BA813E1924CB483152CA50D4FC5BD3CBB47B847F&cid=A0FC94A5FD0A85157477FFBF5C2944B0&jid=E301C6DD292614DC61BD25254CC31E37&aid=54F4B38FA2BAADB74432CA721572D262&yid=D418FDC97F7C2EBA |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240917091859/https://www.alljournals.cn/view_abstract.aspx?pcid=01BA20E8BA813E1924CB483152CA50D4FC5BD3CBB47B847F&cid=A0FC94A5FD0A85157477FFBF5C2944B0&jid=E301C6DD292614DC61BD25254CC31E37&aid=54F4B38FA2BAADB74432CA721572D262&yid=D418FDC97F7C2EBA |archive-date=September 17, 2024}}</ref>
In ancient China, "ji(妓)" was a polysemous word, with two meanings: a female song and dance actor and a prostitute.Geji is a female performer.<ref>{{cite web |title=Ji(妓) explain |url=https://dict.iguci.cn/dictionary/dcontent/index/word/%E5%A6%93 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240917091859/https://dict.iguci.cn/dictionary/dcontent/index/word/%E5%A6%93 |archive-date=September 17, 2024 |quote=1.A woman who makes a living by prostitution. For example, a prostitute, a changji(娼妓). 2.In ancient times, it was called singing girls, women who performed singing and dancing. For example, a geji(歌妓), a wuji(舞妓), a song and dance ji (歌舞妓).}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal |last=Wu |first=JunRu |date=2021-12-31 |title=The Curious Case of Chinese Courtesan Culture |url=https://ojs.lib.uwo.ca/index.php/westernumirror/article/view/15735 |journal=The Mirror - Undergraduate History Journal |language=en |volume=41 |issue=1 |pages=29–30 |issn=2562-9158 |quote=In order to understand the social role of the courtesan, it is important to define the position. This requires a comprehension of the etymology of the term, and how the English language may fail to reflect this idea in a translation. Classical Chinese is known to have a variety of words to define women in specific roles and duties within a given social ladder, the most common of these would refer to a courtesan as ji. While sexual favors may be one of the services provided by ji, she is first and foremost an entertainer. Chinese courtesan culture was defined by several integral points: a skill in the literary arts, such as writing and poetry; a comprehension in song and singing; a setting of trends in fashion and art; as well as the ability to combine these talents to promote a literary exchange amongst the elite.}}</ref>the construction of China's dance culture should not be forgotten".<ref>{{cite web |title=Ancient Chinese Dancers |url=https://big5.cctv.com/gate/big5/www.cctv.cn/dance/20050404/100448.shtml |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240917091859/https://big5.cctv.com/gate/big5/www.cctv.cn/dance/20050404/100448.shtml |archive-date=17 September 2024}}</ref> 清风与明月 (talk) 18:55, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
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- I know that if I post this in the article, it will be deleted directly. So here is just the general content of what I want to express. The references are not comprehensive here, but every sentence I say has references, including English references. I believe that people who have read this in full will always understand what I mean. I hope to understand and respect it, and not treat it differently from other similar professions. No one wants to whitewash anything. If this article didn't already exist, I wouldn't even come to create this article. 清风与明月 (talk) 19:10, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
- Like tawaif, qiyan, and geisha, it starts with a comprehensive introduction and includes sexual issues in the main text. Even the most original English Wikipedia entry for "Yiji" does not define this profession as essentially prostitution profession. 清风与明月 (talk) 19:13, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
- The first paragraph of Tawaif's lead reads
A tawaif was a highly successful courtesan singer‚ dancer‚ and poet who catered to the nobility of the Indian subcontinent, particularly during the Mughal era. Many tawaifs (nautch girls to the British) were forced to go into prostitution due to a lack of opportunities by the time of the British Raj
. Please read MOS:LEAD. The lead is supposed to summarize briefly the contents of the article. The original Yiji article did not even have a lead because it was a stub. That said, the Yiji article prominently identified them as Courtesan in its first sentence. Qiyan is a C Rated Article which is also in need of improvement, while Geisha upon further examination very probably needs to have its lead updated to reflect the contents of the article. Please stop trying to WP:BLUDGEON this. You have been told inumerable times that the sources almost all reference Geji as sometimes being engaged in sexwork and you haven't provided a single source that explicitly says otherwise. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 20:30, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
- The first paragraph of Tawaif's lead reads
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- Like other enslaved women in the Islamicate world, qiyān were legally sexually available to their owners. They were often associated in literature with licentiousness, and sexuality was an important part of their appeal, but they do not seem to have been sex workers.Don't you think this is self-contradictory? They claim that they provide sex, but they are not sex workers. Some Western scholars have said that Qiyan are even treated as sex slaves, and Qiyan may provide sex to men in large quantities. Why don't you go to the discussion forum to question it? Why don't you dare to say a word? Aren't you targeting the Chinese? 年轻的古惑仔 (talk) 03:56, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
- Since you think the qiyan entry also needs to be improved, do you dare to improve it now? Do you dare to question it in the entry forum? Why don't you search for some scholars who say qiyan are sex slaves and they even provide a lot of sexual services to men and question it in the qiyan entry forum? Now the qiyan entry says that even if they provide sex, they are not sex workers. Do you dare to question this in the qiyan forum? Just like you are doing with geji now. You don't dare, right? 年轻的古惑仔 (talk) 04:13, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
- No one is trying to sugarcoat anything, please read what I say in full, there will always be someone who understands, for everyone who passes by. 清风与明月 (talk) 19:14, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
please read what I say in full
...You're joking, right? That is not a reasonable request, when the page statistics show that this Talk page is 185KB in size, and has received 197 edits in the past 30 days, 99 of them from you, adding 87 KB of content. FeRDNYC (talk) 04:22, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
Welcome those who really want to understand Chinese geji culture to check it out
。https://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Geji&oldid=1246333341
I know this version may be deleted at any time, but please read it here and read the references. I think the content of this version is fair and objective, and no one is whitewashing anything. On the contrary, it is biased and not objective to describe the profession of geji as prostitution, or to describe it as providing sex transactions to clients at will. 清风与明月 (talk) 09:20, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
- https://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Geji&oldid=1246351378 All additions have references, see here. Dedicated only to those who want to understand geji culture, not to insulters. 清风与明月 (talk) 15:35, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
- The book Precious Records Women in China’s Long Eighteenth Century mentions that geji or yiji are not sex workers. It mentions that during the Qing Dynasty, the palace service was abolished and some women became sex workers. 清风与明月 (talk) 05:47, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
- I just want to note that the source, "Precious Records Women in China’s Long Eighteenth Century" reads on Page 122
Seven such notebooks, published between 1784 and 1841, reveal a world where the boundaries of class and kinship were frayed by the market for commercial sex.To convey a sense of that world, we must distinguish between the conventional language used to describe it ("pleasure quarters," "courtesans") and the economic and social hierarchies that language masks ("sex market," "sex workers")
Emphasis added. The source says that the language of "pleasure quarters" and "courtesans" masks the economic and social hierarchies of "sex market" and "sex workers". Brocade River Poems (She/They) 22:29, 18 September 2024 (UTC)