Talk:Galashkinskoe Naibstvo

Name of the article

Товболатов Perhaps the article should be renamed as Galashkin naibdom? WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 19:07, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Товболатов Maybe the article should be renamed as Galashkian naibdom? WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 12:55, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

FWIW, in the absence of English-language sources that give a definitive English name, it would probably be best to keep the title as a direct transliteration of the Russian term. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 23:03, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Lead section

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh Takhirgeran Umar. You claimed that my 3 sources are "sources of nationalist" and removed them here:[1].

1. Gapurov is Chechen historian (which would be source of Nationalist according to your logic) but I didn't remove it like you removed Kodzoev.

2. Pavlova isn't even Ingush and she's very authorative ([2]). Regarding the lead section, this lead section is the most neutral possible:[3] as it mentions both opinions on the naibdom being Chechen or Ingush. Your version however is not neutral and only relies on a single opinion of a Chechen historian (which would be source of Nationalist according to your logic).

3. There's no reason to remove the source about the map of Imamate which was made by Chechen naib of Shamil, Yusuf Safarov. The book "Доклад границ Ингушетии" is collection of authorative sources. So there's no reason to delete it. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 13:34, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Inushi did not enter the Imamat. They were on the side of the empire and did not think of themselves without it. You need to add such sources. Takhirgeran Umar (talk) 13:37, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't quite understand what you are on. I already added sources however you removed it and called them nationalistic while the leading section relies on the opinion of Chechen historian which should be considered "source of Nationalist" as you said. Moreover this seems to be nationalistic editing: "Inushi did not enter the Imamat. They were on the side of the empire and did not think of themselves without it". Your personal grievances against Ingush people don't give you the right to remove sources. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 14:43, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Was Gurgal the okrug? Fakes will be removed Takhirgeran Umar (talk) 21:03, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

I have a source as Ingush moved away from the Chechens and became a people. The Ingush on the side of the Russians fought and became a people. The source must be added to the Chistry Ingush. Takhirgeran Umar (talk) 21:09, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Takhirgeran Umar, in this matter I believe it is a good thing that a third party in this case Rosguill has knowledge of the Russian language and can moderate. There are some points to be taken into consideration regarding some of your statements in this article:

• 1) The Galashkians (ru:Галашевцы) are named as a part of the Ingush people by German academian Johann Anton Güldenstädt in the very first in-depth description of peoples of the Caucasus in the 1770-1773, who named Galashki among Ingush villages on page 241 of this Russian translation of his work. It is mentioned right before the description of Chechen district (okrug) begins, which at that time was in conflict with the Ingush tribes as mentioned on this same page, and considered to only be a specific area at the lower parts of the river Argun. The involvement of the Ingush-Galashkians in the Caucasian War does not automatically turn them into Chechens.
  

• 2) While it is true that several generals and researchers from the 19th century (mainly because of the Caucasian War) mistakenly claimed the Ingush to be a part of the Chechens, this statement is considered anti-scientific by many respected historians, such as E.Kusheva, E. Krupnov, N. Yakovlev, F. Gorepekin, etc. Nikolay Yakovlev, a professor of linguistics, after studying the Ingush and Chechen languages, came to the following conclusion:

“ “When did the Chechens form as a nationality? From the second half of the 16th century, the migration of the Ingush tribes from the highlands to the present-day Chechen lowland begins. Numerous mountain tribes from Nashakh, from the upper reaches of the Argun and from Chaberloy mixed up on the plane, fell under the influence of neighboring plane cultures: Russian, Kabardian, Nogay, Kumyk and Kalmyk and resulted in a new cultural area with new centers in which a new culture was formed and a new language – Chechen” ” — Николай Яковлев, «Языки и народы Кавказа (1930)» / с. 23

Dr. Johanna Nichols (linguist) confirms this statement in 2004:

“ “Ingush and Chechen are distinct languages and not mutually intelligible, but because of widespread passive partial knowledge of standard lowlands Chechen by Ingush they function to some extent as a single speech community." ” — Johanna Nichols, "Ingush Grammar" / p. 3

@Rosguill, the direct links to these digitalized books are given. Since you can read Russian, you might also have a look at this article to get a clear picture: Ingush societies/communities where you will also see the localisation of these Ingush communites on Doctor of Historical Sciences Evgeniy Krupnov's sketch. and included you will also see the Galashkians (ru:Галашевцы) among other Ingush societies or communities. This should provide a more clear picture on the topic. For some reason user Takhirgeran Umar refuses to acknowledge this. --Muqale (talk) 18:22, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

The Chechen villages Chechen, Gyuldenshtedt looked there, he was not a speaker in this matter. As I understand it, a whole group of neighboring responds works coordinatingly. Takhirgeran Umar (talk) 18:47, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

The Ingush did not fought on the side of the imamat. No matter how many governors they come up with now. Takhirgeran Umar (talk) 18:49, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

@Takhirgeran Umar, I don't understand your answer. Your phrase is incoherent. It seems to me you are using a translator tool. Muqale (talk) 18:51, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

You confirm that Chechens and Ingush have different languages that we will not understand? And why are these sources in an article about the Imamat region? Takhirgeran Umar (talk) 18:56, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

@Takhirgeran Umar You seem to be missing the point, perhaps you are interpreting the translation of my words incorrectly in Russian. The article is about the Galashkinskoe naibstvo, with the emphasis being placed on the Galashkians. You are claiming their ethnicity, not simply their involvement in the Caucasian War. Muqale (talk) 19:08, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

You yourself wrote that the Ingush adopted the Chechen language and so they understand each other a little with the link - Johanna Nichols. I don’t understand the Ingush why do they have an imamat if they were on the side of the Russian Empire. And except for Gurgal (who fought without a head) and Magomed no one. Takhirgeran Umar (talk) 19:19, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

@Takhirgeran Umar This is why people who do not speak or understand English, should probably not be creating or editing English articles. Based on your answers you have no proper understanding of the English language, and are resorting to a form of mockery I presume, with whatever that last statement is suppose to mean. Muqale (talk) 19:25, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm also wondering on how is Takhirgeran Umar able to communicate in English if his Wikimedia commons home page says that he "has no knowledge of English (or understands it with considerable difficulty)" (en-0)? Perhaps he's using translator software? WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 19:41, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Takhirgeran Umar could you please show me which page in book "Gapurov Sh. A. Chechnya and Yermolov. Grozny, 2006" mentions Galashkin naibdom? I'm having hard time finding the book too, so do you know where this book could be downloaded? WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 18:12, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Just checked the source and there's no mention of Galashkinskoe naibstvo — the lead section should be completely remade. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 16:23, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Kazi-Mohammed Dudarov

I checked the book of Dadaev 2009, in this book he does not write that he is Ingush. Takhirgeran Umar (talk) 21:45, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Hello Rosguill! The participant adds Russian -speaking sources knowing that it is difficult to check them with English -speaking. Here is an example, he writes that Dudarov by nationality Ingush. However, this is not the book.--Takhirgeran Umar (talk) 21:58, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

I would appreciate if you wouldn't make such accusations. I simply wrote the source because it was written in this book: "Дударов, А.-М.М. Ингушское общество в Эпоху Кавказской Войны: наибы Шамиля из числа Ингушей". But thanks for sharing the link to the pdf, I myself wasn't able to find the book and now will be aware, indeed Dadaev wrote "по-видимому осетинский (тагаурский)" in page 178. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 08:32, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

What are the naibs from among the Ingush? Do you understand that naib is like the governor of the region in the imamate? Or do you blame a few soldiers? Takhirgeran Umar (talk) 14:31, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

@Rosguill. He brought page 178 again. I don't understand him. Takhirgeran Umar (talk) 14:32, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

I was able to track down this scan of Ингушское общество..., which does make the claims and citations WikiEditor notes above. For verifiability's sake, in the future it would be best if you cite the actual source you are using, rather than that source's citations, particularly if you do not have the cited sources on hand. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:18, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

After checking the source I realized it was wrong so I removed "Ingush" and also thanks for the advice. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 18:41, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

While I speak Russian, I'm unable to find a digitized version of this text, and my local libraries do not appear to hold a copy. WikiEditor1234567123, can you provide an excerpt that would support your claim? _signed, Rosguill ^talk 22:09, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

@Rosguill Download. p. 178. Takhirgeran Umar (talk) 22:51, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the link--I agree with your description that the cited source does not support the claim that Dudarov is Ingush, and instead directly states that he was "apparently Ossetian (Tagaur)" (По-видимому, осетинский (тагаурский)). WikiEditor, do you have a defense for the edit in question? _signed, Rosguill ^talk 23:01, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

@Rosguill The article has recently been subjected to strong vandal edits by the user @Muqale and @WikiEditor1234567123 Edits are deliberately made bypassing authoritative sources. Protect the article if possible. Merjuev Salovdi (talk) 19:13, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Merjuev Salovdi, I've already warned you to present specific edits that demonstrate wrongdoing, rather than vaguely gesturing to their edits and calling it vandalism or falsification. Further spurious accusations presented without evidence from you will result in a topic ban. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 19:24, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Merjuev Salovdi would you be kind enough to explain these edits [4][5] in Galashkians? You changed Ingush to Chechen despite the fact that there's 10 authorative sources, if this isn't vandalism, then I don't know what this is. Rosguill take a look please. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 19:32, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

@WikiEditor1234567123During the Caucasian War, Chechens lived in the Galashkinsky district, but in 1865 they were evicted to Turkey and Cossacks (Russians) settled there. After that, the Ingush settled there in 1872-1887. Having such facts, you cannot write there the Ingush who appeared there only after 13-20 years after the Caucasian War Merjuev Salovdi (talk) 20:13, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Do you mind explaining this one too?

“ “@Rosguill We need to see who started to conduct provocative texts that have no sources. Here you need to find out who provokes conflicts, why this happens so often. The Ingush are known in the Caucasus for their fakes. Why is only the Chechen side being blocked, which essentially removes the falsified text.„ ” — Merjuev Salovdi[6]

This seems to be similar thing that Таллархо had said here:

“ “* Delete. The Ingush are known in Russia as falsifiers of history, and their false articles are not allowed in the Russian-language Wikipedia. So they moved here and started spreading their lies. It is necessary to remove these false articles here as well. ” — [7]

Perhaps you're somehow connected with him? WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 20:01, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

this statement is a well known fact Merjuev Salovdi (talk) 20:15, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Rosguill now he claims that "Ingush being falsifiers of history" is a well known fact and also removed 15 sources and replaced them with a single source (Gapurov Sh. A. Chechnya and Yermolov. Grozny, 2006.) which doesn't even mention Galashkinskoe naibstvo here [8]. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 20:18, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

@Merjuev Salovdi It turns out Chechens and Dagestanis conquered the Ingush and included in their composition? Takhirgeran Umar (talk) 15:41, 23 February 2023 (UTC)