Talk:Frederick Trump/Archives/2016

Drumpf/Trump sources

In the book "The Trumps: Three Generations That Built an Empire" By Gwenda Blair, the spelling was changed to Trump in the 1640's. Then Blair was interviewed in an online article for Deutsche Welle (blog?) by Michael Knigge where the writer misquotes Blair and misspells or inexplicably uses the archaic spelling Drumpf at every chance. Deutsche Welle, unreliable. Another Washington Post article has been cited where the writer John Kelly uses Drumpf every chance, without explanation or sources cited to show where he got the spelling or why he's using it for this article. Unreliable. We have a source showing that Fredericks fathers name was Trump. Online articles and journalists who don't cite their sources just don't seem to be reliable and just show their bias when using alternate spelling for no reason. 1305cj (talk) 20:25, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Here's another source By Kimberly Powell, Genealogy Expert showing fourth generation (Great Grandparents): Christian Johannes TRUMP, father of Friederich (Fred) TRUMP. 1305cj (talk) 22:27, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

And Wikitree Friederich (Fred) Trump, (although it says aka Drumpf even though he's the son of Christian Johannes Trump) 1305cj (talk) 22:30, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-Protected

I have requested semi-protected (temp) status until the editing battles about Trumpf vs Drumpf dies down. Apriestofgix (talk) 21:03, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 March 2016

U.S. Passport application filed by Fred Trump of Monte Cristo, Snohomish County, WA

Please change "Early Life" to include the following, because it corroborates other information in the article, and adds significant new information.

On March 31, 1896, Trump filed an application for a United States Passport "to go abroad temporarily" and return "within a year's time." The signed, sworn application states:

• Name: Fred Trump
• Birthplace: Kallstadt, Rhenish Bavaria
• Birthdate: March 14, 1869
• Emigrated to the U.S. aboard the Eider from Bremen on October 7, 1885
• Resided in the U.S. continuously for 10 1/2 years from October 18, 1885 to March 31, 1896
• Naturalized as a U.S. citizen by the Superior Court of Seattle on October 27, 1892
• Permanent residence: Monte Cristo, Washington
• Occupation: Hotelkeeper
• Age: 27 years
• Stature: 5 feet, 9 inches
• Forehead "high"; Eyes "hazel"; Nose "straight"; Mouth "large"; Chin "prominent"; Hair "dark"; Complexion "dark"; Face "thin"

Fredric5765 (talk) 09:35, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Not done: Need a source other than an image. Something we can verify through a reliable source. Also, need to make your request in the form of "please change X to Y". EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:36, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 March 2016

Hello! I would like to request this section to be removed " ...and established a restaurant known as the "Poodle Dog", which was identical in name and format to another restaurant in San Francisco"

I would like it removed because "The Poodle Dog" restaurant that exists in Washington State was opened in 1933 by Mac Manza and Jimmy Zarelli. I went to the pages/sources that were sited in the Frederick Trump page. While I saw articles stating Frederick Trump opened a "late night restaurant" in Seattle, I saw no evidence of a name of the Trump's Restaurant. I am the managing director of the City of Fife, WA History Museum. I have newspaper articles (The News Tribute March 23, 1980 in which the founders of The Poodle Dog Restaurant in Fife are interviewed.

I have never requested an edit before! Thank you so much for your time and consideration in this matter. Julie Watts, managing director, Fife History Museum 2820 54th Ave. E, Fife, WA 98424. 253-896-4710

131.191.38.135 (talk) 23:13, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

The 1933 Poodle Dog is likely not the same. I inferred that the restaurant that Trump leased was already called the Poodle Dog, but was renamed to the Dairy Restaurant. http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/08/the-man-who-made-trump-who-he-is-121647 It's been edited as such. Ryan8374 (talk) 06:06, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Whole section on name

There is no purpose for a section on whether this man changed his name or not, especially one that runs to around the same length of his career. For a start, it is not made clear why this is in anyway important to understanding this man; such a hoo-ha was only brought up to lampoon the nativist leanings of a grandson he never lived to meet. In addition, the weight is on the name having been changed before this man ever lived, as documented by historians and journalists who made an effort to check church records. Thus, the idea of him having changed his surname is WP:FRINGE and the coverage is undue. The analysis of the claim can be discussed on the John Oliver segment page, of which the section is practically identical.

Look how the fringe theories on William Shakespeare (which have been subject of MUCH more debate and academic purpose) take up so little of the Featured-class article, and the fringe theories of Columbus' birthplace take up two lines in his article and a link to another article. If that is how much should be given to serious questions that have been studied for hundreds of years, why is so much space given to an ephemeral meme created last week on a cable show? '''tAD''' (talk) 18:47, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Agreed, only the Trumpf on the immigration list and later correction to the original Trump can possibly have any relevance. The Drumpf nonsense should be weeded out. This would also get rid of the annoying mentioning of pre-20th century Germans having names like John Philip Trump and John Trump (clearly anglified from Johann, but we are not allowed to change or delete it because there is a "source").--Batmacumba (talk) 21:07, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

@The Almightey Drill and Batmacumba: - I have managed to trim some content but I am not sure how to handle the 'Drumpf' side of the argument. The John thingy has been settled. starship.paint ~ KO 09:15, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

I think having a section is warranted because since this article was created there has been continual debate and edit warring on the question of whether Grandpa was Drumpf. This is a practical, not a theoretical question. If we collate the sources that establish he was born Trump, and that the family name was actually changed in the 1600s, then hopefully we will be able to put this debate behind us. Deleting the "nonsense" only ensures that it will spring back like the heads of a hydra.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:41, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

Trumpf

As stated in current article: "U.S. immigration records list his name as "Friedrich Trumpf". Here 's a scan:

U.S. Immigration records. Line 133 mentions "Friedr. Trumpf", age 16, born in "Kallstadt", Germany.

Google the name and it will give a lot of results, while Drumpf doesn't.

Can I suggest that maybe Trumpf was his real name? 1009 (talk) 22:22, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

I think it's appropriate left the way it's worded now, along with link to the scanned immigration record. We know from the other source that an ancestor first changed the spelling to Trump in the 1640's. There's no need to speculate as to whether it was anything other than a typo or misspelling by customs officials, no source shows that had been his legal name prior. So the entry should just show that "Immigration records list...." Leave as is. 1305cj (talk) 23:44, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

I would like to call Trump "Drumpf". But I do agree 100% that we should stick to the facts. I sought, but did not find any copies of original records that mentioned the name Drumpf, not for Frederick/Friedrich, nor for his father Christian Johann. All we see are references to news articles without any proof, or links to genealogical sites which are also very prone to errors (and where generally the sources are missing too).

This is an encyclopedia, we should stick to the proven facts and not be guided by rumors. The facts are that Trump was registered by immigration as "Friedr. Trumpf". In (1896) he filed a passport application as "Fred Trump", and that name was also used during the 1910 census. 1009 (talk) 02:15, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

BTW The article only mentions 2 children of Fred Trump (John and Fred), while the 1910 Census also mentioned a daughter: Elizabeth, age 5. According to Gwenda Blair's biography Elizabeth was born April 4, 1904. That indirectly show why we shouldn't trust news sites without resources, because the article at Politico says the family returned to Kallstad to 1894 with the baby, while the book says that they returned in 1904. 1009 (talk) 02:36, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

I'd like to weigh in as a German speaker here. Trump is the English translation of the German word 'Trumpf'. The immigration records clearly show 'Friedrich Trumpf' as the original German name, and given the Trump <> Trumpf translation, it's the only thing that would make sense anyway etymologically. The 'Drumpf' name must have come from some English speaker trying to pronounce the original German word 'Trumpf', and that how that whole thing likely started. But there is no indication nor logical sense that the official family name would have been anything else than Trumpf/Trump. At some point some ancestors must have decided to just use the English translation of their original German family name. Jabernet (talk) 19:16, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

In my opinion Blair's biography must definitely be considered a reliable source for the birthname "Friedrich Drumpf". She has obviously done research in the matter, even tracing the ancestry back to one Hanns Drumpf who settled in Kallstadt in 1608. Here are also some German-language sources for "Friedrich Drumpf":

• Die Zeit: http://www.zeit.de/2015/46/donald-trump-vermoegen-wahlkampf/seite-2
• Berliner Kurier: http://www.berliner-kurier.de/news/politik---wirtschaft/donald-trump-schon-sein-deutscher-opa--war-ein-grossmaul-22757990
• Deutsche Welle: http://www.dw.com/de/was-donald-trump-von-opa-friedrich-lernte/a-18706179

(The last one makes clear that Gwenda Blair is the source, which may be the case for the other two as well.)

On the other hand, this reliable source states that Friedrich's surname always was Trump:

Hannelore Crolly (August 24, 2015). "Donald Trump, King of Kallstadt". Die Welt. Retrieved March 2, 2016.

Quote: "Erst als der schwedische Ort Karlstadt stolz ein Museum errichten wollte, kam heraus: Nein, Opa Friedrich war 1885 aus Deutschland ausgewandert. Und er hieß auch schon immer Trump, nie Drumpf, auch wenn sich diese Falschinformation hartnäckig hält." ("Only when the Swedish place Karlstadt proudly wanted to establish a museum did it come out: No, Grandpa Friedrich had emigrated in 1885 from Germany. And he also had always been named Trump, never Drumpf, even if this misinformation stubbornly persists.") Unfortunately, the author does not reveal the source this claim is based on. Assuming Hanns Drumpf is an ancestor of Friedrich Trump, it would be interesting to examine when the name was changed.

In any case, when various reliable sources don't agree, we should present all significant viewpoints neutrally.  --Lambiam 10:24, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

English sources please. Agreed that Blair's well researched and sourced biography should definitely be considered a reliable source for the birthname, for Friedrich Trump not Drumpf. The history is there going back to Germany's Thirty Years War in 1648 when the spelling of the name was first changed. [The Trumps: Three Generations That Built an Empire] By Gwenda Blair, page 26-29 . Unfortunately, some "journalists" have continued to write articles, misquoting Blair and throwing in the archaic spelling with no explanation. Those articles should not be considered reliable sources. 1305cj (talk) 14:32, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

@Lambiam: Hello Lambian! Mrs. Hannelore Crolly had the best sources ever, she was in town (Kallstadt) and surveyed the original local documents and talked to the relatives. --Goetzmertz (talk) 15:55, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Given all the attention (outside of Wikipedia) to the issue, I think it may be best to have a small section with a title like Trump or Drumpf? in which we report, citing reliable sources: (a) that there was an ancestor whose name is recorded as "Hanns Drumpf"; (b) that a later ancestor changed the name to "Trump"; (c) that this is how Friedrich Trump's name was recorded at the time of his birth [if we have a source for this]; (d) that several recent sources have claimed his birthname was Drumpf and that he changed it to Trump after migrating to the US, but that no contemporaneous sources are known that support this statement.  --Lambiam 10:56, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

I agree.--Jack Upland (talk) 12:26, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

References

User:VanEman please stop editing the Early Life section to include Trumpf. There is no sourcing for your changes, and we already have a healthy discussion here on the talk page that has resulted in the use of Trump as the birthname. Thanks! Apriestofgix (talk) 00:32, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

@Apriestofgix: Please actually read the documentation in it's full size. After you realize you're wrong, don't ask User:VanEman to fix your mistakes. Thanks.

^K_Bⁿ_a^o_t^w_t^le_l^d_e^e

03:47, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

The Family Search record cited gives his name at birth as "Trump". As far as I can see, for "Trumpf" we only have the immigration record, and these are often wrong. Blair also says it was Trump.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:40, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Friedrich/Frederick

This has nothing to do with the whole "Drumpf" nonsense, but I added that at birth his given name was Friedrich. This is supported by multiple online sources that cite the Blair biography. 71.37.40.158 (talk)

I agree completely; I WP:BOLDly changed this on the article. – Zumoarirodoka_(talk)^(email) 16:32, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Another point: at birth his name was Friedrich, which was changed to Frederick(?). The article title says Frederick, but in the article he is constantly being referred to as Frederich. So was his new name Frederick or Frederich? Malus Catulus (talk) 14:21, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

60 Wall Street was the location Von Papen used to plan the Black Tom sabotage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.111.120.99 (talk) 15:34, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on Frederick Trump's Wife

Could someone please imbed/link Elizabeth Christ Trump to this article? thank you 96.251.123.121 (talk) 21:31, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Source #2 ... familysearch.org?

I cliked on the sourcelink, I don't see how source #2 is reliable, at familysearch.org. I've never used the website before, but how reliable is that? I mean, is it self-reported by the families, themselves? And where's the documentation to back it up? That's why I ask how reliable it is.

^K_Bⁿ_a^o_t^w_t^le_l^d_e^e

03:58, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

^K_Bⁿ_a^o_t^w_t^le_l^d_e^e

03:58, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

^K_Bⁿ_a^o_t^w_t^le_l^d_e^e

03:58, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

What is the claim to notability?

I am not seeing much claim to notability here. Almost all of the coverage is based on his relationship to Donald Trump. I think a strong argument could be made that there is no real encyclopedic notability independent of his legitimately famous grandson. IMHO it boils down to this question; would we have an article about this man if Donald Trump had never been born? I think not. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:34, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Did Donald Trump have any effect on Frederick Trump doing the things he did? No. Donald Trump wasn't born until 28 years after Frederick died; Frederick would have still done all the things he did had Donald never been born. While most sources on Frederick Trump at least mention Donald, they cover Frederick's actions in enough depth for him to be notable. Also, it's inappropriate to tag this article now; wait until it's not linked to from the main page. pbp 19:54, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

(Copied from my talk page for continuity of discussion.) I have no objection to removing the tag while the article is linked on the main page and point in fact I should have waited. But the question is not whether he would have still done the things he did, but whether they would be considered worthy of any significant attention. As far as I can tell the coverage he has gotten is almost entirely based on his relationship to Donald. Once you eliminate that, I don't see much that separates him from any of the other millions of small business men of the late 19th century. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:27, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

@Ad Orientem:: If a small businessman did things similar to Trump/Drumpf, and had as much source material about him as Trumpf/Drumpf does, it would probably be kept if created, even if he didn't have a connection to a celebrity. pbp 16:45, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Then there should be ample in depth WP:RS source coverage independent of Donald Trump. And maybe there is, though I rather doubt it. I admit that I have not combed through archived newspapers from the late 19th century. If such coverage can be found I will happily withdraw my concerns. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:50, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

• This article is no different from Lawrence Washington (1659–1698) or Samuel P. Bush in that notability is tied to a descendant, which generates significant coverage of the ancestor sufficient to meet WP:GNG. See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alois Hitler (2012).--Milowent • ^hasspoken 22:36, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Samuel Bush & Alois Hitler both have very clear and strong claims to notability. Lawrence Washington does not. I can't see any claim to notability beyond his blood relationship to his obviously notable grandson. See WP:NOTGENEALOGY. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:47, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

• What Milowent said, a Hitler analogy has never been more apt. Friedrich Drumpf's entry offers deeper context to what would would otherwise be just an intriguing one-liner in his grandson's entry. Drumpf's life is significantly more colorful than the "millions" of businessman of his era. Article is also well-written and sourced. Keep. Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 11:58, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

The Hitler analogy is quite poor actually. Hitler has a very strong claim to notability because of his direct influence on his infamous son. Samuel Bush was a powerful and highly influential man in his own right and more than meets the standards for an article. The Washington Article is very weak and I see nothing there that meets WP:BASIC. In any event this is a moot point since other stuff exists but notability is WP:NOTINHERITED. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:47, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

The name change (Drumpf-->Trump) is significant, the more so because Donald's father went on to obscure the family's German heritage, and Donald himself promoted the family's Swedish heritage myth as late as 1990. With multiple sources debunking the Swedish heritage myth, isn't it of use to have an NPOV article, with multiple RS sources, giving the man's true biography? Donald himself (in The Art of the Deal) intimated that Frederick died of alcohol-related causes, so it is useful to discover he was, in fact, a 1918 flu victim. His return to Germany and later return to the US is also of interest, and with his success in the Klondike, sets him apart from the crowd. I don't understand why Alois' influence on Adolf conveys more significance to his life than Frederick's influence (as a budding real estate investor) on Fred Jr. That's for Dr. Freud to decide, not us... In any event it is interesting that Trump's hotelier legacy goes back two generations, and that there's a self-promotional element in Frederick Trump as well, writing to a local paper drawing attention to his inn's louche reputation and standards. At the end of the day, I don't think this article would have merited DYK promotion if it lacked notability. We'll see what others say. Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 16:11, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not here to debunk or verify genealogical claims by notable persons. To the extent there is some strong relevance it should be covered in the main article about the notable entity. The criteria is really very simple. We don't do articles about people who lack a claim to independent notability. This doesn't preclude articles about someone who is related to a notable person. They just have to be notable in their own right. Alois Hitler falls into that category and so does Donald Trump's father who is clearly independently notable. Frederick Trump looks highly doubtful to me. And Lawrence Washington (see above) is such an obvious and glaring case of genealogy that I have sent it to AfD. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:20, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

This is better sourced than Lawrence, though. You could probably get Lawrence deleted on notability/sourcing grounds alone. pbp 17:04, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

in my opinion ,there'senough public interest to show notability. But the place to determine this is AfD. DGG ( talk ) 17:12, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

• I disagree with it, but will bow to what is clearly a strong consensus supporting notability. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:23, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree subject is not notable. This is also an example of WP:RECENTISM. The above discussion shows that. The fact that Donald apparently didn't know much about his grandfather, shows how not notable he is. I would suggest an AfD after Trump loses or withdraws from the presidential race. If he becomes president I think an AfD is unlikely to succeed.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:16, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

@Jack Upland: I think you're misreading RECENTISM. It's not like the articles that have already been released will go away when Hillary or Bernie beats Trump. If you're notable at one particular point in time, you're notable at all points afterward. This article would fail recentism if a disproportionate amount of information in the article was about things that happened, say, since Donald starting running for President. Nearly all of this article about events that are 100 years old. pbp 02:54, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

No, I think recentism sums it up: an article with "flimsy, transient merits" created because of a recent "spike" in "public attention" on the Trump family. This article was only created in September, and most of the sources date from this year.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:31, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

I think you're taking that quote out of context, @Jack Upland:. Recentism spikes are about people who receive transient coverage in 2015 for something they did in 2015. Also, you're ignoring the book from the year 2000. pbp 17:37, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

• "The fact that Donald apparently didn't know much about his grandfather, shows how not notable he is."

• WP:DONALD:

1. if Donald doesn't find it notable, its not notable.
2. if Donald doesn't know it, its not worth noting.
3. if Donald claims something happened, it did.
4. if Donald says Americans will be tired of winning when he wins, it is true.

Let's test this proposed notability standard in a few AfDs. I'm off to add him as the winner of United States presidential election, 2016 citing WP:DONALD ("He reported that he will win.").

--Milowent • ^hasspoken 20:45, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

And I'm accused of taking things out of context.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:28, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Milowent simply reduced one of the things you said to absurdity, @Jack Upland:, as is his want. In case it wasn't clear why Donald was unfamiliar/in denial about his German heritage for portions of his life, it was because Fred Jr. (Donald's dad) hid his German ancestry at a time (during the World Wars) when being of German ancestry was controversial. Milowent's general point is that Donald Trump alone doesn't determine notability, reliable sources do. pbp 00:34, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Some opinions don't have to be distorted to be absurd.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:44, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

One such opinion is that an article about a guy who's been dead for 97 years is recentist. pbp 04:14, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Would it make sense to propose a merge with Donald_Trump_(Last_Week_Tonight)? @Muboshgu: --Potguru (talk) 21:46, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

I think this entire section above has laid out a good case for why this individual is sufficiently notable for his own article. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:48, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

There is no point in merging with the Last Week Tonight episode, which has never even mentioned or shown Frederick. Irrelevant. starship.paint ~ KO 01:23, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

I don't think the notability has been established. It is a clear case of inherited notability. However, as Donald shows no sign of becoming less notable, his grandfather will continue to get attention...--Jack Upland (talk) 20:34, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

What happened to Donald? Does anyone know?--Jack Upland (talk) 07:13, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

He went down to Mar-A-Lago] and had a YUGE and expensive Thanksgiving dinner. pbp 14:10, 26 November 2016 (UTC)