Talk:Flags of the Confederate States of America

Battle Flag: Lee's Army?

In the section on the "battle flag", the sixth paragraph begins:

"On November 28, 1861, Confederate soldiers in General Robert E. Lee's newly reorganized Army of Northern Virginia received the new battle flags in ceremonies at Centreville and Manassas, Virginia, and carried them throughout the Civil War."

The Army of Northern Virginia was only so named in March of 1862 and Robert E. Lee did not take command until June 1st of that year. In November of 1861 it was still known as the Army of The Potomac (the same as the opposing Union Army, no doubt leading to confusion) and was still under the command of Joseph E. Johnson, so either the date or the names of the army and its commander are incorrect.

Please stop reverting the "controversy" paragraph

I recently ran across this page and discovered some accusatory language in the controversy paragraph, which I obviously fixed (More specifically, the paragraph claims the flag IS a symbol a racism and hate, and I am trying to change it to say that "many believe it to be").

However, I later noticed that it had been reverted for some reason. I assumed this was a mistake a fixed it again, and it was again reverted? I have had to fix it three times so far, as well as other people, and the same guy keels reverting our changes. I am posting this here because I was apparently given a warning because there is a rule that you are not supposed to revert a change three times. Except, in order for me to revert it three times, the other guy had to revert it at LEAST three times, although it seems to be 4 times currently. Please stop reverting AKiwiDeerPin and Akrasia25.

I am just trying to help make this statement less accusatory/accusational which my fix does without affecting the actual information. But in my experience so far it seems like wiki is yet another shameless cesspool of liberalist propaganda, so I'm probably just going to get blocked again. And at this point I don't really care so do whatever you want I guess. I was trying to help. Aceplante (talk) 20:08, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Looking at Modern display of the Confederate battle flag, it is a broader view than "many believe it to be". That article states the flag is "commonly associated with racism, slavery, segregation, white supremacist views, Neo-Nazism, the alt-right, racially motivated violence, treason, pride in Southern heritage, defense of states' rights, historical commemoration of the Confederacy, glorification of the Civil War, and adherence to the pseudohistorical ideology of the Lost Cause." Based on that article, I wonder two things:

1. Does this article need to change the statement "This design has become a recognized symbol of racism and white supremacy" to something like "This design is commonly viewed as a symbol of racism and white supremacy"?
2. Does this article need to include Neo-Nazism or any of those other associations to the text here?

Not pinging any editors just yet, but if discussion is quiet, I may. —C.Fred (talk) 20:09, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

I guess I'm saying the first thing. I completely agree that it may be viewed that way (hence my edit), but I'm saying a flag is not inherently racist by itself and to claim it to be such is not being neutral. Take a look at the change I keep having to make. Unless it is supposed to be a quote, It should be fixed. Aceplante (talk) 20:12, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

That is the thing. Most Americans see the flag as a symbol of racism. Even as far back as 2015, 54% of all Americans and 69% of Black Americans saw it as a symbol of hate. Only in the 1940's, did the Dixiecrats adopt the Confederate flag as their party’s emblem. From that point, the flag was associated with racist opposition to civil rights. Several states made it a part of their state flag in 1961, decades after the civil war. Nascar and the Defence Department have banned it. The flag and the Confederacy has always been about preserving slavery and promoting white supremacy, i.e. Mississippi's declaration of secession:

"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery — the greatest material interest of the world," or the speech from the Confederacy's vice president that declared the Confederacy's cornerstone "rests upon the great truth that the Negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery — subordination to the superior race — is his natural and normal condition").

It became a new symbol of feelings of white repression.

And No, the Civil War was not about State Rights; the Southern States tried to make it illegal in the Northern States not to return slaves.--Akrasia25 (talk) 21:21, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

I guess you can do what you want (since at this point I am kind of sick of this), but is my statement that many people believe it to represent racism/slavery inaccurate? Again, it is just a flag and many other people simply see it as a symbol of southern pride. My wording conforms to both. Aceplante (talk) 00:34, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

It is NOT "just a flag" which is the most disingenuous stream of drivel I've heard in a long time. If the Confederate flag is "just a flag" then a swastika occupying a space between two red bars and printed on a sheet of nylon, is also "just a flag." 47.138.88.117 (talk) 07:42, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Certainly you have the power to state your opinion as fact, but I'd venture to observe that 54% of Americans agree on a thing doesn't make it absolute truth. It is certainly worthy of mention that 54% of Americans associate the flag with racism, and it's on-topic, but if so it's also incumbent on us to acknowledge what the 46% associate it with. Facts are neutral. If a person is unable to retain neutrality on an emotionally-charged topic, it is my opinion that this person doesn't belong in the topic. Gnerphk (talk) 07:35, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Agree with Gnerphk. Wikipedia should present both sides ESPECIALLY given an almost even split between 54% and 46% of Americans. That means it isn't a fringe belief. Next: If Dixiecrats adopted it as their emblem and several states incorporated it in their flag in 1961, it had continuing resonance in the U.S. that wasn't due solely to slavery. WW2 ended merely 15 years prior; that war (as most others in which Americans served), was fought in--and died for-- primarily by soldiers who were young men from the southeastern and midwestern states. Thus ascribing Neo-Nazism is ahistorical. Or anachronistic

C.Fred made two proposals. ONE Agree. Is this okay? "In the 21st century, this design is commonly viewed as a symbol of racism and white supremacy". TWO Agree with Aceplante and C.Fred. Drop some of those attributes, e.g. Neo-Nazism and the alt-right (which has no enduring meaning, see WP article about it). Remove defense of states rights as Akrasa suggested. Add a separate sentence about association with pride in Southern heritage, historical commemoration of the Civil War, and ideology of the Lost Cause. (Lost causes aren't "pseudo-historical". Lots of Jewish and Christian parables have ideology of lost causes--which sometime stop being "lost" due to miracles or divine intervention. They are not pseudo-historical.)--FeralOink (talk) 10:58, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

IP editor, do NOT describe another editor's measured and grammatically correct contribution as a "disingenuous stream of drivel". That's disruptive.--FeralOink (talk) 10:58, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Not in cited source

Over the course of the flag's use by the CSA, additional stars were added to the canton, eventually bringing the total number to thirteen-a reflection of the Confederacy's claims of having admitted the border states of Kentucky and Missouri, where slavery was still widely practiced.[e][22]

"Where slavery was still widely practiced" isn't in the article. 107.204.84.73 (talk) 11:21, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Why was the Stars and Bars flag abandoned?

Changing the national flag in the middle of a war seems a strange thing to do. Some explanation is in order. Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 03:13, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I think it was because they decided they didn't want their flag to resemble the flag of the USA (the Union) after a year or two into the war. Initially, at least some of the states did want there to be a resemblance. It is mentioned in the article, but not as clearly as it should be. Thanks for pointing that out with your comment!--FeralOink (talk) 10:58, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Arkansas Shouldn't be on the State Flags Section

Why bother putting Arkansas on the section containing the state flags if it doesn't even have a flag? I suggest that Arkansas should be removed on that section, instead of keeping it there and putting an "X" image. Arizona didn't have a flag during the American Civil War and it wasn't listed there, so why not do the same on Arkansas? Anonymy365248 (talk) 00:51, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikiproject assessment changes

• Resolved class errors for several of the Wikiprojects to which it belonged;
• Reassessed importance and lowered some from "mid" to "low". Why? Because the flags themselves aren't of mid-importance to the military history of the United States (or even the US civil war) even though the US Civil War is of high importance to both the history of the US and the military history of the US. Same for the African Diaspora (the US Civil War is of high importance but these flags aren't). Retained mid importance for Discrimination because some of these flags continue to be associated and changing requires an editor with more subject-matter knowledge;
• WikiProject Heraldry and Vexillology doesn't use an importance parameter.--FeralOink (talk) 10:58, 6 December 2024 (UTC)