Talk:Flag and coat of arms of Moldavia

Moldavians

Get a life Mr. Dahn. This is a page about the coat of arms of Moldavia. Since you are not a Moldavian you are not entitled to do any changes here.

Adr2ian, can you point me to the Wikipedia policy which says that only Moldavians may edit articles related to Moldavia? :-)

I was pointed by an older Wiki user to some comments made by you regarding Moldavia and Moldavians and it's quite clear that you have something against the Moldavians.

I will not modify the article again but the vandal here is not me. It's a shame that the Romanians are represented on Wiki by such mediocre people. I don't know if there is a term for phobia or hate for the inhabitants of a different region of the same country but if it exists it sure applyes to you and to many others. We can see it and hear it quite often. That's why Anti-Moldavians should better abstain from changing articles concerning Moldavia.

Adr2ian, I do not answer to straw men, especially since the point I had made back then was taken out of context by a user who, I believe, should have received a warning for that (namely, User:Dc76). I would like you to quote me making the "comments made by you regarding Moldavia and Moldavians" which allegedly make it "quite clear that you have something against the Moldavians", indicating the place where "I have said them". Otherwise, this counts as libel.

The rest of your argument is dismissable trolling. I will make it quite clear that, if you engage in this sort of diatribes against me ever again, I'll not be willing to let it slide past me. Dahn 18:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Lol, wake up man, you're a nobody, you're as much as a bug to me, how dare you to threaten me? Now, back to the article, four of the pictures used there are my previous contribution on other pages, either scaned by me from a personal history books or colected over the time. You didn't had any remorse using them as we can see. Since it looks that you own Wiki, i regret now making my contributions here and on other pages especially with pictures, since i noticed many Romanian personalities lacked appropriate and authentic pictures. Like i said since you claim this as your project let this page at least as it was before my fist contribution here. Goodbye mr. Ceausescu!

Well, bye. Dahn 18:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Dahn is right that Wikipedia is not an image gallery: I'll copy the images on commons and link to the real gallery. bogdan 17:10, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Aurochs or wisent?

What do the sources say? Looks more like an aurochs. FunkMonk (talk) 20:07, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Official coat of arms of the principality

COA of Moldavia 1855

This is the official coat of arms of the Moldavian principality in 1855. This image is present on the passports of the Moldavian principality (see File:Прінціпатꙋл Молдовеі. Пасапорт.jpg).

This color image is not found in historical documents. In addition, a lot has changed since the time of Stephen the Great. Better to use a more recent (latest) version of the coat of arms. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 20:00, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Similar images are shown in this Romanian source: Dan Cernovodeanu, Stiinta Si Arta Heraldica În România, 1977

• Fig. 6. Stema Moldovei de pe spätarul stranei domnesti (executate dupà 1821) aflat'6 in biserica mánástirii Neamt. — P. 269
• Fig. 1. Stema Moldovei (gravatii de Oh. Asachi) in timpul guvernärii generalului Kisseleff (Bible Acad. R.S.R., Cab. stampe). — P. 275
• Fig. 4. Stema Moldovei pe o diploma de rang din ianuarie 1856 emisă de Grigore Al. Ghica Voievod (colect. Lambrino). — P. 275
• Fig. 6. Stema Moldovei pe sigiliul din 1858 al Cäimacfimiei acestui principat (Bibl. Acad. R.S.R., Cab. numism., Sigilii, nr. inv. III/111). — P. 275 --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 12:51, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Official flag of the Moldavian principality

Лобачев Владимир, to just remove the most commonly known flag is not a good solution. This flag you are promoting is not known by almost anyone and it will most likely be removed by lots of editors who only known the well-known version. Do you know what colors are accurate? As far as I know the flag by itself was accurate, just the colors weren't. I think it is a clearly better option to just correct the well-known one instead of replacing it. Super Ψ Dro 13:34, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Do you propose to leave a fictitious (unofficial) coat of arms of the country, just because it has been in this card for a long time? Did I understand correctly? --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 13:44, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

"banderium magnum sericeum, coloris rubri, in quo arma Terrae Moldaviae pulchre auro depicta erant". Translation: "large red silk flag, on which was beautifully painted in gold the coat of arms of Moldavia". Why is this version fictitious? Super Ψ Dro 14:03, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

(1) it is an arbitrarily pulled flag from a long story; (2) there is no image of him, and the modern drawing is an artistic fiction of the author. Therefore, it is better to use the official and most recent symbol of the state, as is usually done on Wikipedia. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 14:10, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

"it is an arbitrarily pulled flag from a long story" what do you mean? If you mean what I think, take a look at how cited this fragment "banderium magnum sericeum, coloris rubri, in quo" is. 188 quotes in Google, quite a lot, and also a few books and academic articles. It is not a random sentence I chose from anywhere. "there is no image of him, and the modern drawing is an artistic fiction of the author" that doesn't matter. I don't see any reason why modern reconstructions should be avoided, and specially when it's about simple drawings like that flag. "as is usually done on Wikipedia" there's no policy on this but Wikipedia usually recommends the most common stuff over the most recent one (for example WP:COMMONNAME). Your version has gotten 11 views in the last 30 days while the long-standing one has gotten 55 [1] [2]. "Flag of Moldavia.svg" gets 2,860 results in Google, "Flag of Moldavia in 1831.svg" (your version) gets 93. Both are accurate flags so the most logic option is to use the most common flag. Super Ψ Dro 15:04, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Rgvis, since you are also questioning the use of this 1831 flag, you might want participate on this discussion too. Super Ψ Dro 15:09, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

This is the last officially approved flag.

• 
  Regulamentul Organic. 1831
• 
  Wallachian and Moldavian Flags. 1849
• 
  The Paris Convention. 1858

--Лобачев Владимир (talk) 17:27, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

That is not a reason to replace the most common and well-known flag. Super Ψ Dro 18:35, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Replacing the modern author's reconstruction made by the Wikipedia editor based on the modern coat of arms of Romania with the official flag of the country is exactly what needs to be done. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 21:13, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

A 1533 source is not really based on Romania's coat of arms (the fragment I cited comes from De provincii Polonicis published in 1533). If you feel the modern reconstruction is wrong, you are of course free to fix it, but it being a reconstruction is not a reason to remove it. Super Ψ Dro 23:27, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

There is not much to discuss on this topic (regarding the variant that has been used here for almost 13 years). According to heraldry specialists, when we refer to the entire period of existence of the Principality of Moldavia, the main symbolism is as follows: the basic color of the flag is red, the emblem being the yellow aurochs head (with a star between the horns, the sun on the right and moon on the left). [3], [4], [5], [6], [7]

Otherwise, over time in Moldavia there have been various flags, which have changed permanently from one era to another, depending on the leader (for example, the color blue appeared only in the early 19th century). [8], [9] At the same time, the traditional emblem of the aurochs head remains a constant presence. [10], [11], [12]

Therefore, the only flag that can represent the entire period of Moldavia's existence remains the red flag with the traditional aurochs head as its emblem. Any other variants can be represented and explained in the specific sections of the article. In fact, the corresponding articles on the Romanian Wikipedia are also relevant: [13], [14]. (Rgvis (talk) 07:31, 14 April 2021 (UTC))

1. Steagul Moldovei a fost modificat de-a lungul timpului de fiecare domnitor după bunul său plac. Dacă culoarea drapelului a fost fie roşu, fie albastru, în mijloc a fost inscripţionat acelaşi cap de bour ce reprezenta puterea Moldovei.(source). How does this phrase confirm your words?
2. Culoarea de bază a steagului Moldovei este, în general, roşu, iar cea a Ţării Româneşti, alb sau o culoare deschisă (alb-gălbui), dar există şi excepţii. (source). If we exclude the banners with St. George, then this does not follow from the drawings of historical flags of the Moldavian principality given in this article.
3. In article Istoria capului de bour de pe stema Moldovei - ce legătură există cu legenda lui Dragoş Vodă şi cu zeul persan Mithra, I did not find confirmation of your statement.
4. Under article CÂND A DEVENIT CAPUL DE BOUR STEMĂ A MOLDOVEI?. Can you give the quote you meant? --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 09:44, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

• Therefore, the only flag that can represent the entire period of Moldavia's existence remains the red flag Not convincing yet. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 09:48, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
• Rgvis, you can give quotes that say that it is precisely such an image of the flag of Stefan (created on the basis of the modern coat of arms of Romania) that should symbolize the entire history of the Moldavian principality? --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 13:57, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

We showed that this is the most relevant flag used by the Principality of Moldavia. Should it be used then? Yes it should. Why should we use the flags and coat of arms you are promoting instead? Super Ψ Dro 13:59, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Furthermore, the red and yellow flag has still relevace today. Igor Dodon proposed adopting it in 2017 [15] and it is widely used by Moldovan nationalists and Moldovenist websites [16] [17] [18]. You won't find similar stuff with the 1831 flag. Super Ψ Dro 08:42, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

These pictures can be used for article Moldovenism. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 14:01, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, and they can also be used here. Super Ψ Dro 14:08, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

@Лобачев Владимир - According to official sources [19]:

During this period (Organic Regulation), the flag of the state had not yet been established, the main flag used by each principality being that of the ruler. ... In Moldavia, Prince Mihail Sturdza distributed flags and banners to the new units of the ground militia. Those of the Moldavian military units were two-tone: on the blue canvas, red squares are placed at the corners. On the obverse of the canvas, in the center, was the Moldavian aurochs head with a star between its horns and the princely crown, while on the reverse was painted St. George on horseback, killing the dragon; on the red squares was the ruler's monogram, "M".

Obviously, your version (which is not based on any reliable source) cannot be considered as the official flag of Moldavia during the Organic Regulation period. So, it would be better not to insist on all kind of variants that do not comply with WP:COPO. Thank you. (Rgvis (talk) 13:42, 20 April 2021 (UTC))

In January 1832, the Regulamentul Organic (Constitution) were introduced for Western Moldova. Article 264 of the Regulation determined the color of the flag: "The cavalry is armed with a spear with a blue-red flag at the tip." --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 09:09, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

So, you are talking about a version of a military flag; this variant also had the coat of arms on it. Here, for example, is what an authentic military flag looks like in blue and red: [20] (also, for reference [21]). (Rgvis (talk) 13:13, 21 April 2021 (UTC))

You are showing a drawing of a military flag. And I'm talking about the national flag. The Paris Conference (August 19, 1858) established that the principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia will have, as before, their different banners. "The troops of both countries will retain their current flags: blue and red for Moldova, blue and yellow for Wallachia." See drawings of these flags in the French edition Marine. Gravure sur acier, gravée par G. Feldweg d´après G. Heck. 1849. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 15:42, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Curious Facebook document, which describes the symbol of Bessarabia, separated from Romania: "Toți românii sunt rugați a arbora, acea zi, drapelul tricolor, precum drapelul Basarabiei, roş cu albastru, ambele cu doliu la vârf." (the flag of Bessarabia, red and blue). And in the newspaper "ROMÂNUL" 13/26 Maiu 1912, pagină 2. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 18:29, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Politische Charte von Europa, Moldavia. 1848

Here is a drawing of the flag "Politische Charte von Europa, 1848" over the Moldavian principality, which shows that the national flag consisted of two stripes. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 19:11, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

So, you consider that a "Satirical map of Europe" is a reliable source for your presumption!?? :) (Rgvis (talk) 20:56, 22 April 2021 (UTC))

A satirical depiction of the participants in the events, but the names of the countries and the depiction of the flags are correct. This is an additional source, which shows that the striped flag existed and was used in the Moldavian principality in 1848 as a civilian one. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 12:36, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

• 
  German edition. 1850
• 
  German edition. 1862

Here is another flag drawing from Flaggen mit Guidons, Cornetten und Wimpeln in alphabetischer Ordnung, Hamburg, 1850. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 13:13, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Here is another flag drawing from Bromme, Illustrirter Hand-Atlas der Geographie und Statistik, 1862. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 13:37, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

• Rgvis and Лобачев Владимир, I think we can fix this problem by removing details from the red and yellow symbols. We know that a golden auroch was placed on a red background as far as I know, but do we know anything about the star, moon and flower? If there's no evidence of this, we should remove those three things and keep the red and yellow symbols. If there's evidence of them, there's no problem with the symbols and they should be kept. But no matter what version, this flag with the auroch is more notable than this bicolor flag. Super Ψ Dro 13:32, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
  • It is this two-color flag that is specified in the Constitution (Regulamentul Organic) of the Moldavian Principality of 1831. Such a flag had international recognition by France, Russia, England, Austria, Turkey, Prussia (Paris Convention of 1858). --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 13:46, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

It is still less known and less representative of the state. Super Ψ Dro 16:43, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

@ Лобачев Владимир - What you call a "two-colored flag" is envisioned as a naval flag in your source [22], most of the time the blue and red colors being represented in different ways, not in horizontal stripes (a variant that cannot be considered representative for that period, and which is not even explicitly mentioned by Regulamentul Organic, as you claim [23]). Once again, in that period (1832-1859), Moldavia did not have an unique official flag, but the main flag of the principality was considered to be that of the ruler, according to contemporary sources: [24].

• 

For example, for the 1834-1849 period, the above flag can be considered more representative for Moldavia than any other variant. (Rgvis (talk) 10:05, 25 April 2021 (UTC))

• 
  The banner of the Moldavian principality of the times of Mikhail Sturdza. Probably the first battalion of the Moldavian principality in 1834.
• 
  Standard of the second battalion of the Moldavian Principality of 1849
• 
  Standard of the Infantry Battalion of the Principality of Moldova, model 1834

These are military banners of the battalion of the Moldavian army, not national flags. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 17:53, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

You have brought a picture of a war flag. I'm talking about the national flag, the image of which is given in French and German sources (see above). This means that they are recognized by the international community. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 10:40, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

It can't be representative, because the war flag (or military flag) is not the national flag. It belongs to the army, not the state. Dragovit (talk) 13:03, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm talking about a national flag, not a war flag. See tables of national flags of at least three editions: French 1849, German 1850, German 1862. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 12:30, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

In Vexillography it is customary that if there are no drawings on the flag, then simply indicate the color of the flag stripes.

“ SECțIA VI

Despre înbrăcăminte arme.
Art. 264. - Pedestrimea este înarmată de o cu baionetă, iar suptofițerii şi doboşarii au câte o sabie scurtă aninată de palaşcă. Călărimea este înarmată de un pistol, de o sabie şi de o lance de lemn ferecată cu fier având la capăt o flanbură de zof vânătă roşie.

” — d, Moldavian copy of the Reglementul Organic. Romanian edition, 1944

--Лобачев Владимир (talk) 12:30, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, at that time, the rulers' flags could sometimes be military flags. @Лобачев Владимир - Your source states that those two flags (of Moldavia and Wallachia) were naval flags (not "national") . On the other hand, Art. 264 does not say anything about any flag. (Rgvis (talk) 12:48, 25 April 2021 (UTC))

This, in your opinion, what is written about: Romanian: "lance de lemn ferecată cu fier având la capăt o flanbură de zof vânătă roşie"? --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 12:57, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

You translate incorrectly, it is about the pennoncel, as shown in the following image, above the flag (the banner from the top of the spear):

• 

The flags are, as you can see, completely different. (Rgvis (talk) 14:32, 25 April 2021 (UTC))

We do not know which flags are shown in this figure. There is no comment that these are national flags. It is likely that these are battle flags. Example 1, example 2. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 14:45, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Once again, according to contemporary sources (cited above), Moldavia did not have any national flag at that time!!! The main flag used by the principality was that of the rulers (which may also coincide with the flags given to various military units). As long as you do not provide any reliable source for you POV and all arbitrary images you have created on Wikicommons, this discussion is futile. As long as there is no consensus, no other flag image will be inserted into the infobox template of the article. (Rgvis (talk) 20:33, 25 April 2021 (UTC))

Other contemporary sources clearly explain the situation of the flags of Moldavia and Wallachia, for the 1830-1859 period [25], [26] and states that the images with the horizontal blue-red flag are considered WP:OR:

The Treaty of Adrianople (1829) between Russia and Turkey, besides recognising Greek independence and Serbian autonomy, also established free trade for Moldavia and Wallachia with the reopening of their ports to the shipping of all nations. At the same time the creation of a Moldo-Wallachian fleet (both mercantile and military) began. Colours were stated for the two principalities, and at the beginning they were mainly used as lance pennons (red and blue for Moldavia and yellow and blue for Wallachia). This induced some authors to assign horizontal bicolored flags to the two countries (Deppermann and Ruschke, Hamburg, circa 1840), but there is no evidence for their existence.

According to Encyclopædia Britannica [27]:

In 1834 the Ottoman government recognized local flags for use in Moldavia and Walachia, two principalities that later joined to form Romania. Their local flags were based on ancient heraldic banners—blue with an ox head (Moldavia) and yellow with an eagle (Walachia). Walachia also chose a naval ensign with horizontal stripes of red, blue, and yellow, colours later selected for the Romanian national flag.

The purpose for which some users try to promote this red-blue flag is one of the political agenda. Contemporary Moldovan scholars about the red-blue flag [28]:

The red-blue flag with an ox's head ..."is a recent creation, which the communists have been displaying for several years. It is an illegal flag", explains the specialist. According to the historian, the communists previously tried to register it in the General Armorial of the Republic of Moldova, but they did not succeed because they could not prove its authenticity.

(Rgvis (talk) 14:11, 26 April 2021 (UTC))

This changes it all. Considering the user's arguments for defending the blue and red symbols aren't very strong and their other edits related to Moldova, I am inclined to think that this user has different motivations than it seems. Super Ψ Dro 16:58, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

That's just in Russian-language sources.

Ru: В армиях появляются национальные флаги и оркестры. Валашский флаг состоял из желтой и красной полос, а молдавский из синей и красной.
En: National flags and bands appear in the armies. The Wallachian flag consisted of yellow and red stripes, and the Moldavian one of blue and red.

(source: Гросул В. Я. Россия и формирование национальных регулярных армий Молдавии и Валахии // Вопросы истории: ежемесячный журнал. : Nr. 5/2001)

Ru: Сине-красный флаг у Молдавского княжества 1831-1859 гг.

En: Blue-red flag of the Moldavian principality 1831-1859

(source: Шорников П. М. Как была принята государственная символика республики Молдова, 2016)

Ru: По условиям Парижского мира (август 1858) между Францией, Россией, Англией, Пруссией, Сардинией и Османской империей для Молдавии был установлен красно-синий флаг.
En: Under the terms of the Paris Peace (August 1858) between France, Russia, England, Prussia, Sardinia and the Ottoman Empire, a red and blue flag was erected for Moldova.
(source: Спаткай Л. Гербы и флаги стран мира. Европа. Часть II, 2018)

--Лобачев Владимир (talk) 17:43, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

All reliable sources (based on research studies in the field of heraldry from Romanian, Moldovan, or other European specialists), consider that it is unlikely that your flag variant had been used or even existed (not to mention that some scholars even call it a fake). (Rgvis (talk) 13:36, 28 April 2021 (UTC))

File:Coat of arms of Moldavia.svg

Coat of arms of Moldavia?

Moldavia from coat of arms of Romania

Where did this drawing, strikingly resembling part of the coat of arms of modern Romania, come from? What source indicates that the shield of the Moldavian principality was always red? What time and ruler this coat of arms? Or is it a fantasy of a modern artist, not based on reality? --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 08:41, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

You have been given tons of sources and links. You can read them instead of starting another discussion you'll stop participating in later. Super Ψ Dro 08:50, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

What kind of discussion with links to sources are we talking about? --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 09:10, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

The one above. Super Ψ Dro 09:19, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

There I saw nothing about this image of the coat of arms. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 09:46, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

These (new other) sources will (should) answer your question: [29], [30]. (Rgvis (talk) 21:14, 22 April 2021 (UTC))

Colleague, can you give specific quotes from sources that support your point of view? --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 13:18, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

• 
  Coat of arms from the Polish Statute of Jan Laski. 1506
• 
  Coat of arms of Iacob Heraclid. 1561
• 
  Coat of arms from the German armorial. Around 1586
• 
  The royal coat of arms of Michael the Brave. 1600 (blue shield)
• 
  Coat of arms of Moldavia from "Stemmatographia". 1702
• 
  Coat of arms of Moldavia during Grigore III Ghica's rule. 1775
• 
  Coat of arms of Moldova during the times of Alexander Mourouzis, 1806–1807 (blue shield)
• 
  Coat of arms of Moldavia under Prince Scarlat Callimachi (ca. 1812)
• 
  Seal of Moldavia in 1832, with azure tincture indicated by hatching in the original source.
• 
  Coat of arms of Mihail Sturdza. After 1834
• 
  Banner of the second battalion of the Moldavian Principality of 1849
• 
  Coat of arms from the passport of the Moldavian principality. 1855 (red-blue shield)

Here are all the coats of arms that I found, based only on historical color illustrations, illustrations with heraldic shading (tincture), or on an accurate historical description. Any original research, paintings by artists and controversial drawings are excluded. And what is the dominant color of the shield? --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 14:14, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, there are many sources for the current flag and coat of arms of Moldavia (as it has often been stated).

Principality of Moldavia at crwflags.com (concise and documented): [31]

Silviu Andrieş-Tabac-About the flag of Stephen the Great carried on 12 September 1485 at Colomeea (pp. 21-73), with drawings on the page 73: [32]

Vlad Mischeva-The national tricolor. Introduction to the symbolism of vexillology: [33]

In medieval Moldavia, the red color was traditionally the color of the sovereign - the prince of the country. Traditionally, two insignia have persisted on the flags of Moldavia: the aurochs head - the symbol of the Moldavian state and Saint George - the ecclesiastical symbol of Moldavia.

presidency.ro - About the Romanian flag: [34]

The basic color of the Moldavian flag is generally red. ... the flag of Moldavia, during the reign of Stephen the Great, was still red, with the head of an aurochs with a star between its horns and flanked by the sun and moon. From the same period we have the image of Stephen's princely flag in the engraving depicting the battle of Baia from 1467: long and narrow flag, with vertical stripes parallel to the pole (the family coat of arms) and the aurochs head on the rest of the canvas.

About Dan Cernovodeanu's work (full of information on this subject), it is almost useless to mention it: [35]

Of course, many colors were used, but red is considered to be more common. (Rgvis (talk) 14:38, 27 April 2021 (UTC))

Can you provide a link to the image of the coat of arms with a red shield? Or a quote from an authoritative source describing such a coat of arms? --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 16:41, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm not surprised you don't want to see them. (Rgvis (talk) 13:36, 28 April 2021 (UTC))

Again about the colors of Stephen's coat of arms

About this edit.

This infobox indicates about this coat of arms:

Modern reconstruction of a Moldavian coat of arms based on the seals of Stephen the Great, Roman I and others.

Above are historical drawings. For the first time, red appears in the coat of arms of Grigore III Ghica's rule (1775). And this color is not the main one. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 14:31, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Super Dromaeosaurus, can you comment? --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 18:20, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Many sources have been provided showing the use of red and yellow on Moldavia's symbols. Current consensus appears to be to keep both pair of symbols. We won't slowly change them to favor one side. Super Ψ Dro 19:21, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Sources mostly say that there were red flags (along with others). However, not a single source has been cited confirming the red color of the background of the coat of arms before 1775. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 11:38, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

According to [Cernovodeanu 1977, p. 121]:

....the document from 1599 issued by Constantin Movilă in his exile from Poland, in which we find an armored representation of his family coat of arms, over which it broaches a badge in the abyss with arms of the Moldavian principality: in a red field, a golden aurochs head, with a star of the same metal between the horns.

(Rgvis (talk) 10:02, 17 May 2021 (UTC))

@Super Dromaeosaurus: However, no other evidence was provided that the simple blue-red flag existed. On the contrary, another source clearly confirms that the respective variant (bicolor stripes, without coat of arms) existed only as lance pennons for the Moldavian cavalry. The only variant of a blue-red flag arranged as horizontal stripes seems to be the one with the coat of arms on it, which was used by the Moldavian river fleet: [36]. (Rgvis (talk) 10:02, 17 May 2021 (UTC))

Yes, I am aware of this, but there was no consensus in the RfC so I see no point for striving to remove the blue and red symbols, for now at least. Super Ψ Dro 13:52, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Changes in coat of arms colors in the 19th century

• Changes in coat of arms colors in the 19th century
• 
  1806—1807 Alexander Mourouzis
• 
  1812—1819 Scarlat Callimachi
• 
  1834 Mihail Sturdza
• 
  1849 Grigore Alexandru Ghica
• 
  1849—1855 Grigore Alexandru Ghica
• 
  1855 Grigore Alexandru Ghica
• 
  1859 — United Principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia
• 
  1863 — United Principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia
• 
  1872 — United Principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia

Thus, in the 19th century, red, as the main color of the shield, appeared only after the unification with Wallachia (United Principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia). --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 10:21, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Moldavia's history goes back way before the 19th century. Super Ψ Dro 17:39, 9 July 2021 (UTC)