Talk:Faravahar

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I changed two spellings: the variant fravahr to the more common alternate fravashi and sepanta mainyu to spenta mainyu. I'll expand this whole article later. Khirad 15:04, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Is Faravahar a Zoroasterian symbol?

Please explain that to me how come the Zoroasterian symbol could be found in Daruis (I) relief? Isn't that right the Daruis lived about 500 years before Zaroast? -- the previously unsigned comment was from Poosad 11:28, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

• Zarathustra (Zoroaster) was around before Darius I. According to this section, Zoroaster is believed to have lived around 1000 BC. Darius I on the other hand is known to have lived from c. 549–485 BC, which puts him approximately 500 years after Zoroaster.
  Moreover, Faravahar might not always have been a Zoroastrian symbol. As explained in the second paragraph of Faravahar, it is entirely possible that the Farvahar was initially simply a symbol of royal power. -- Fullstop 09:11, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

• 1st, thanks for your response.

trust me! I'm a Persian (Iranian), and I'm crazy about my ancient history, Zarathustra that basically spell Zartosht or Zardosht in modern persian (Farsi) and called Zartokhshtra in avestan that means "Yellow Camel" ("Zard=Yellow, Shtra(Shotor)=Camel") because the father of the zartosht had a big covey of yellow camels and born in the Ray city near by Tehran, capital of Iran, However at the age of darius (that basically calls Dariush) people even speak and write in a different language and script called spikelike script (khat e mikhi), but at the age of the Zartosht (in the Ashkanid dynasty) the script was Avestan (Avesta ee). and I'm sure every body knows that the avesta is from Zartosht. so there is no doubt that Zartosht lived long after Darius or Achaemenid Empire and infact Zartosht lived after attacks of Alexander and Greeks (Solukids). Nima ,Nee 14:26, 23 April 2006 (UTC)poosadNee 14:26, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

• Um, I don't quite see how the spelling of Zartosht (or who his father was, or where his father was born) are relevant to your initial question as to whether Zoroaster lived before Darius I (or not). Nonetheless,...

With respect to your conclusion that Zartosht must have lived after Darius I because a) "avesta is from Zartosht" and b) the Avesta was written during the Sassanid era...

1. Zartosht didn't write the Avesta. Only the Gathas are attributed to him, and these have been linguistically dated to around 1000 BC. The texts of the Avesta as we know them were written during Sassanid times, but they existed in another other form before then.
2. when/how the texts of the Avesta were written has nothing to do with when the texts were composed. The language (not the script) of the Avesta was almost extinct by the time of the Sassanids.

And incidentally,...

a) The script (not the language) of the Sassanid's used to write the Avestan language was called Din dabireh (see Avestan alphabet). Din dabireh might not have been the first script used to write the Avestan language.

b) The "spikelike script" you refer to is called "cuneiform". Like "din dabireh", cuneiform is only a script - not a language. Cuneiform was used to write several languages, including the four used in Darius' Behistun Inscription.

I suggest you review the articles referred to in both this and my previous comment - in particular this and the first sentence of this.

-- Fullstop 08:27, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

my point was about avestan script not avesta itself, and sassanid used Phlavi script and avestan used before ashkanid (If you want I can name some books from sassanid in Pahlavi script) by the way if we agree that Zartosht lived in 1000BC that means he lived bfore Achaemenid Empire, that on that time Elamit and Mads dynesties were rulling Iran (Persia). There was no exact script on that time and people used drawing instead of writing ( as you can find it now in Pasargad right next to the cuneiform script that Cyrus made it). if Zartosht existed in the Achaemenid age, the kings were Zoroasterian and even the national religion, however there was in the Sassanid age that for the first time king reported a national religion that was Zoroasterian (as you can find it in Shahnameh Ferdosi and even find out about Ashkanid,...) So Zartosht lived in Ashkanid age.( and you know that Ashakid dynesty were not Persian, and they were Partian) Nee 17:32, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

The word

Faravahar is in Pahlavi and Faravashi is in Avestan and it's NEVER called Frohar or Frouhar... even in modern Persian (Farsi) for some one who knows Persian I suggest to take a look at http://www.bonyad-neyshaboor.com/ and find some REAL and TRUE refferences and reports. Nee 22:26, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

What about Forouhar - as in Leila [1] or Dariush [2]. NEVER is quite a strong statement, I know several Iranians who spell it Forouhar but pronounce is Fravahar (I have no idea why) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.153.71.99 (talk • contribs) 00:24, 14 June 2007.

There are numerous variations, and numerous transliterations of each. Subject to which dialect is spoken (and which variant of the various Middle Iranian languages that dialect was influenced by) each vowel may be dropped or replacaced by 'a' or 'o' or 'e' (and 'u') or 'ae' or 'oa' or 'ou', not to mention the long and short forms of each, the open or close forms of those, and the aspirated form of some of them. In addition, some of the consonants have variations too.

To put it in perspective, try pronouncing "frwr" while inserting vowels at will. Any and all of the ways you can come up with to pronounce that with exactly three syllables will be "correct". Now additionally treat 'r' and 'w' as ambiguous (for example, 'w' as 'w','v','u','uu' (vocalic glide) plus the various long and aspirated forms), and see how many more variations you can come up with. Those too are also all "correct".

As you see, there is no one single "correct" way to pronounce the word, leave alone render it in latin characters.

-- Fullstop 08:37, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Dehkhoda's dictionary mentions Foruhar and relates a quote from the 358 year old Burhan Qati' Persian dictionary. [[3]]. Per Iranica: Middle Persian frāwahr (prʾwhr). So I added both. The Burhan Qati' gives it meaning as "معنی جوهر که در مقابل عرض باشد" meaning: "It means the Jawhar/Johar (Gohar) (source, Jewel, Basis, Spirit..) as opposed to the body." It might also be in Farhang Jahangiri. There has been a lot of intrepretation about this word but it would be interesting to see if scholars have considered the meaning from the Burhan. The dictionary might have used Dasatir words. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 03:21, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Unlike your forum friend, at least you know what فروهر transliterates to. But like him/her, you did not read the second sentence, where you will find "the word is thus variously pronounced/written farohar, frohar, frawahr, fravahr etc". "Foruhar"/forouhar goes into that set. -- Fullstop (talk) 08:03, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Unlike your fake understanding of all Iranian materials exported by nonnatives in the good time before big bang, I have understood that any page should, by wiki rules, give the local name of the title. And by my last axiom, nothing (after two sentences) is worth reading after finding a big mistake/or serious deficiency in the leading paragraph that can cause my fingers on the keyboard a disturbing full stop. --Xashaiar (talk) 13:51, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

faravahar as a national symbol of iran

the faravahor symbol is more than just a zoroastrian religious symbol. this should be mentioned in the article. imagine a tourist that visits iran and sees faravahar gold necklaces and jewlery in all shops and sees the faravahar symbol in all gift shops at bazaars and airports. wouldn't he want to know why this symbol is so widely used everywhere in iran? because currently 99% of iranians are not zoroastrians. my point is this article has totally neglected what the faravahar symbol represent in present-day iran. to put it briefly: for most iranian people in present day iran, faravahar is a symbol of ancient persia and it represents their rich history. this needs to be explained clearly in the article. 86.212.104.214 (talk) 17:58, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

A. Wikipedia is not: 1.Wikipedia is not a guidebook, 2. Wikipedia is not a directory, .. . It is not wikipedia duty to say hey tourist of Iran, Faravahar in Iran is not what you read in encyclopaedias. B. YOur sources: 1. a weblog, that is not WP:RS, 2. A reference to wikipedia, again not RS. 3. You have violated WP:3RR. So stop. that's it.--Xashaiar (talk) 18:08, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Cool down buddy. you are not in charge of wikipedia, any more than i am. so control your tone and start assuming good faith and listen to the argument. Better sources can be found to verify the fact that faravahar is also a *national* symbol in iran. Is that your only problem, or is there something else that you don't agree with? 86.212.104.214 (talk) 18:15, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

good luck. You will be reverted very soon.--Xashaiar (talk) 18:25, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

how to say the word. knowing kurdish as well as persian and arabic. i am geussing it must be pronounced fara v(w)ahar. meaning many springs or beyond spring.perhaps it has to do with the preaching and what it leads us. think about it. fara ( many or beyond) vahar, wahar or bahar (spring)or better commings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.226.44.117 (talk) 03:15, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Recent move

I get exactly six Ghits on Farekiani, and one of them is us. The only Gbook hit I get is us. I don't see this move going forward without a lot more documentation. Mangoe (talk) 17:53, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

@Mangoe: Because the title Faravahar is wrongly well known as I told in article.Alborzagros (talk) 08:21, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

This was moved again. This is a highly questionable move. Where is the discussion? Where are the documents? How can we revert this back to Faravahar for now? Shambaww (talk) 22:02, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Most importantly, where is the internal discussion? The lack of sources and documentation is a large issue in itself, but why wasn't it discussed? NATO.Caliber (talk) 01:07, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I know this conversation is not about this recent move, but I reinstated it. User Alborzagros seemingly has an agenda in moving the page, as it was done without discussion in 2018 and twice in 2014 -- all to different transliterations, just not Faravahar. Yet the page clearly was written using Faravahar as the primary term. Also, of note, as I stated in my edit summary, that this naming convention (alternate name in parenthesis rather than explanation) is very much not standard, especially as there was no need for any disambiguation at all. JesseRafe (talk) 19:01, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Correct translation of Good thoughts, Good words and Good deeds?

"The Faravahar is the most worn pendant among Iranians and has become a secular national symbol, rather than a religious symbol. It symbolizes Good thoughts (پندار نیک pendār-e nik), Good words (گفتار نیک goftār-e nik) and Good deeds (کردار نیک kerdār-e nik), which are the basic tenets and principles of Zoroastrianism."

Is this some Yazdi Persian dialect? Never heard of the words "nik" and "kerdār" (which is "kardan" in formal Persian). --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:53, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

The words "nik" (good) and "kerdâr" (deed) are purely Persian. Thus, i would say that the translation is correct.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 00:49, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Badly written and 99% unsourced=

Almost all the content of this article could be deleted as unsourced content - and, since it is also badly written, maybe it should be, leaving the article as a stub for future development. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.26.123.223 (talk) 00:28, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Classical or Old Persian

It’s Classical Persian as mentioned in Steingass’ Classical Persian dictionary. The reconstructed Old Persian form is already mentioned in the etymology section as *fravarti. And thirdly this article originally listed the pronunciation as Classical but an editor inexplicably changed it (vandalized?) to Old Persian sometime ago.Foreverknowledge (talk) 17:13, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Nationalbankofiranshowingfarohar1946.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:53, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Farvahar from Ashur?

Is there any evidence for this or people are just going by things that look similar. If there is scholarly work on this please let me know, otherwise i'm happy to get rid of the speculation 2406:3400:313:B310:3DA5:5DD1:1DD8:636A (talk) 03:59, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

I think you might be misreading the section, it's not saying it definitely comes from it, but the similar looking one pre-dates it and was adopted in usage. JesseRafe (talk) 18:41, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

the article says " It[farvahar] originates as a Mesopotamian Assyrian depiction of the wing deity Ashur. " 2406:3400:313:B310:D579:4B13:A34:7D0A (talk) 05:07, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Correct. Except your imposition of the supposed antecedent. The winged figure and/or sun motif has a history that pre-dates it being a Faravahar, and its origin can only be pointed to its earliest manifestation. Its Zoroastrian usage is not claimed to be Ashur, but the symbol itself is being traced. JesseRafe (talk) 14:28, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Same as the Sogdian farr

Is the Faravahar the same thing as the Sogdian farr or halo? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 15:54, 6 August 2023 (UTC)