Talk:FIFA World Cup records and statistics

It misses

Hi.. I've been reading the article and think that: Olimpic Goal Misses.. The only olimpic Goal from world Cups isn't included... Thanks

Re-added. It is a historic feat of great relevance, not a simple trivia. Svartner (talk) 03:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Roberto Baggio

Most shootouts, kicker, all-time & Most losses, kicker, all-time

3, Roberto Baggio, Flag of Italy Italy (1990 semi-final, 1994 final, 1998 quarter final)

It's false, because Roberto Baggio has scored the penalties that he kicked in the '90s semi-final (against Argentina) and in '98 (against France).

Many different sources crediting different assist figures for Pelé in the world cup, others not being record

The source you cite says Pelé has 10 assists, but other sources says he has 8 assists https://www.sportsadda.com/football/features/most-assists-in-fifa-world-cup and others says he has 6 assists https://www.besoccer.com/competition/historical-ranking/world_cup/2018/assists

Discuss it, should it be removed, is there a reason to state that some of the sources are official and others are not, or should all of them be mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.2.121.77 (talk) 12:31, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Assists were not "important" until very recently, so we don't have any reliable record for this kind of data. Even FIFA sometimes puts Pelé with 6 or 5 assists in 1970. Here are some sources with 10 assists: https://www.nbcboston.com/news/sports/world-cup-2022/who-has-the-most-assists-in-fifa-world-cup-history/2892615/ https://sports.yahoo.com/most-assists-fifa-world-cup-145545409.html?guccounter=1 But in the end, these pages are not reliable at all. Unless FIFA decides to give a final word I think we are just going to be guessing numbers, so far, only goals, wins and appearances are imperative for them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tucotuti (talk • contribs) 19:50, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

I've updated the page to use the sources supplied, but as others have mentioned, a lot of this is retrospective and assists weren't recorded sayat the time they matches took place. Spike 'em (talk) 23:01, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

and have added a couple of notes to the text to help clarify. Spike 'em (talk) 10:35, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

I think much of the confusion is because sources like OPTA only look at assists and stats from 1966 onwards. IMO, that's the main reason why different sources are quoting different numbers

I have counted 9 official assists for Pele using the FIFA website and the Guinness book of records. Perhaps these 2 are the most reliable sources to use.

6 overall in 1970, 1 vs Sweden in the 1958 final, 1 vs USSR in group stage in 1958 and 1 vs Mexico in 1962.

https://web.archive.org/web/20201023121730/https://www.fifa.com/news/happy-80th-birthday-to-the-king

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/records/hall-of-fame/pele-most-wins-of-the-fifa-world-cup-by-a-player

That gives a combined total of 9 from reliable sources.

Does anyone know where the supposed 10th Assist was provided? Koppite1 (talk) 13:34, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

I was also wondering if it is possible to get a list of the supposed assists for Pele, and how much footage is available of the tournaments he played in. Different FIFA articles seen to assign him different numbers too. It would be really good to get a source which lists them, as we are otherwise relying on sources that are of debatable reliability, reporting statistics from events that happened 50 years before those sources came into existence (and who knows where they got their information from). Spike 'em (talk) 17:16, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

TBF, i wouldn't call FIFA and the Guinness book of records "debatable reliability" and i've counted a combined total of 9 in their records.

As stated above

In 1958, 1 assist vs USSR

In 1958, 1 assist vs Sweden

In 1962, 1 assist vs Mexico

In 1970, a record 6 v Czechoslovakia, England, Peru, Uruguay and 2x Italy

All here

(7) Pelé - Assistências em Copas do mundo (All assists in World Cups) - YouTube

The only assist missing is number 10 Koppite1 (talk) 18:34, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

I feel like the above is quite the WP:SYNTH where we are combining many sources to give the information. If sources only state post-1966, then we should state what the sources say and give that caveat. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:57, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, i get that, but what we are simply trying to do is just to see where the supposed 10 assists came from. We are not going WP:SYNTH on the actual article. I can see where 9 came from, but puzzled about the 10th,

Anyway, there are numerous independent, single articles that quote 10. e.g. Who Has the Most Assists in FIFA World Cup History? (yahoo.com)

I genuinely believe all the confusion arises from the fact that OPTA Data only count from 1966 onwards and perhaps have introduced their own definition of what counts as an assist. Koppite1 (talk) 20:22, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

This is conjecture on my part, but doesn't the goal against CZE count as a dribble so that the player laid the goal on for himself, which is part of the criteria that FIFA uses? This FIFA source only credits Pele with 5 in 1970, so they are not consistent on this. Spike 'em (talk) 21:34, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

see Link above, FIFA registered 6 assist in 1970 and they mentioned his 1 versus Sweden too.

I think until FIFA actually definitively state the numbers and address this, then the uncertainty will continue. And i genuinely believe OPTA are clouding the issue by either ignoring everything pre 66 and retrospectively applying their own standards. Koppite1 (talk) 22:01, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

But FIFA uses 2 different numbers for 1970, and I can't find anywhere on their site that gives an overall total for Pele. This link about Messi does state that the pair share the record for the most assists in the knockout phase (6) but don't know how that links with the list above. Spike 'em (talk) 13:48, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

I've researched all Pele assists, and came up with the following:

* Pele assisted two goals in the 1958 tournament, including against Sweden in the final

* Pele assisted a goal in the 1962 tournament

* Pele assisted five goals in the 1970 tournament (Not including the goal against Czechoslovakia)

Therefore, Pele has made eight goals in total and is equal to Messi and Maradona. --Mishary94 (talk) 16:54, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

In their latest article, FIFA are saying 6 assists in 1970

Football and the world mourns Pelé (fifa.com)

So, including the 2 in 1958, and 1 in 62, he should have 9. Not 10, but It's still the most by any player, Koppite1 (talk) 16:58, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

That Messi link is interesting. It says they both had 6 in the knock out phase. However, Pele had at least 3 other assists outside the knock out phase 1) USSR 1958 2)Mexico 1962 and 3) England 1966. So, if we excluded CZE in 1970, it looks like Pele has 9 assists Koppite1 (talk) 01:26, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

I also provided the supposed 10th assist on HITC. Achmad Rachmani (talk) 01:07, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

There simply was no concept of a awarding assists back then. I mean maybe another Brazilian has even more. Did you check all players by video. -Koppapa (talk) 07:11, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

This is still being edit-warred on, can we please discuss this here, rather than in edit summaries. @Rudy Zoma 1980:, please take part here. Spike 'em (talk) 10:28, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for the edits without coming to the talk page.

Wwhy debate sources if all is on record in Youtube? There are no assists by Pelé in the final against Sweden. You can watch the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A3YbP9_Ty8. Maybe someone might argue that Pelé touches the ball in the second Vavá goal? Unclear, but anyway calling that an assist is ludicrous. Transfermarkt (which details assists match by match) got it right here https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/pele/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/17121, use the dropdown menu: just one assist against the USSR. It's really a rebound (2nd goal) but let's say it's OK https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyDB1ssjs4k

Also, right about 1 assist in 1962 against Mexico (first goal): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi-I8KkZ6Hg

About assists in 1970, there are only 5, not 6. You can check on Youtube all 1970 goals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCwYo9nL_Dk Here Transfermarkt.com and other sources say 6 goals, but as the previous commenter states calling "assist" the one against Czechoslovakia would be as ridiculous as calling "assist" the one by Messi to Julián Alvarez in Alvarez first goal against Croatia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vkbimizUYs Lllach (talk) 18:24, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Pelé Assists

Hello everyone there is a lot of disagreement in Pelé's assist count most sources say it's between 8 to 10 now certainly no less than eight, for sources that say nine goals, it also obviously counted Jairzinho's fourth goal against Czechoslovakia in the group stage of the tournament 1970, What confirms this is that the sources say that Pelé scored six goals in this tournament. Watch the goal here on YouTube. Pele passed the ball to Jairzinho, who moved the ball more than twenty meters in a time of more than ten seconds, then dodged three players and hit the ball into the goal, according to the method of this goal, it is not considered a assist. According to FIFA, the World Cup Assists Standards state:

• In the event that the scorer has set the goal for himself (dribbling, individual run), no assist is awarded.

Regarding the sources that say ten goals, I did not find the desired goal during the 1958−1970 tournaments, but it seems that these sources considered that any foul or penalty kick caused by Pelé and then scored as an assist, which is the first goal against Czechoslovakia in 1970 (same match)

So it is appropriate to say that Pelé assisted with eight goals, with noting that there are sources mentioning more than eight. --Mishary94 (talk) 00:32, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

FIFA 's latest, most upto date article awards Pele 6 assists in 1970. And we know he scored at least 3 others elsewhere. So he has at least 9. . There are more sources claiming he had 10 than 8, so if you don't want to put 9, then lets revert back to 10 and be done with it Koppite1 (talk) 01:24, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

there is already a discussion on this above, please keep this in one place. Spike 'em (talk) 07:19, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

why eight? There's no assist by Pelé in the 1958 final. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A3YbP9_Ty8 Pelé had 1 assist in 1958 (doubtful, with a rebound, minute 9 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHgurTWWI5I). He has 1 assist against Mexico in 1962. And 5 assists in 1970. I mean, if we count those ridiculous rebounds, let's count for instance this Messi shot as an assist to Higuain... minute 1:12 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9_M-XDSW_Y and if we count Jairzinho goal against the Czechs then this touch by Messi to Julian Alvarez has to count too... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vkbimizUYs Lllach (talk) 18:33, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

It is not for us to decide what is an assist, that is for FIFA / other reliable sources to do.Spike 'em (talk) 20:19, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

There's no official account of assists by FIFA for those World Cups. "Reliable sources" according to whom? Who decides reliability? The "reliable source" you quote is this one https://www.sportsadda.com/football/features/most-assists-in-fifa-world-cup where it says Pelé has 8 assists (counting the ridiculous "assist" to Jairzinho) and you put 10! But it's OK, if you want to lie and use your mini-power to supress the evidence as seen on tape, I'm sure there must be some psychological reason. Lllach (talk) 21:13, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

WP:RS and WP:NOR should be all that you need. Spike 'em (talk) 21:22, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Pele assists two goals in the 1958 tournament, a goal against USSR and a goal against Sweden in the final (watch the first goal for Beazil where Pele touched the ball and changed its direction and thus is considered an assist for Pele) and in the 1962 tournament he assist a goal, and in the 1970 tournament he assist five goals (not including the goal of Jirzinho), Therefore, it is eight assists. --Mishary94 (talk) 01:30, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Not sure why it was felt necessary to start a conversation here as there is already a debate further above on this page. It doesn't matter what you think, what matters is what the most reliable sources state. And, for the umpteenth time, FIFA latest docs credit Pele with 6 assists in 1970. Opta also seem to award Pele 6 in 1970 How Brazil's 1970 World Cup Win Confirmed Football As The World's Favourite Sport (theanalyst.com) Koppite1 (talk) 10:02, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Who gets to decide that a person writing an article is more reliable than Youtube, where you can actually *watch* the matches. I see that some of you are specialists in cricket, believe me it's not hard to figure out what an "assist" is in football. There's no assists by Pelé in the Czechoslovakia match. Lllach (talk) 01:07, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Yu have to have very little confidence in your senses to count 6 assists for Pele in 1970 Lllach (talk) 01:10, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Let's add WP:NPA to the list of policies you need to read about. Spike 'em (talk) 05:35, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Slovakia is not a successor to Czechoslovakia. Only the Czech Republic is. Please fix the all-time table

Title says it all 93.144.135.43 (talk) 17:10, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

The successor to Czechoslovakia is both the Czech Republic and Slovakia as UEFA stated. Khoa41860 (talk) 19:59, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

FIFA Statistical Kit Brazil 2014

Only Czech Republic is considered by FIFA as successor for the records of Czechoslovakia:

page 49 for CZE: Czech Republic (CZE) FIFA Affiliation: 1907/94 First entry 1934 Preliminary entries* 17: 1934, 1938, 1954-2010 ... FIFA World Cup participations 9: 1934-1938, 1954-1962, 1970, 1982, 1990, 2006

page 58 for SVK: Slovakia (SVK) FIFA Affiliation: 1907/94 First entry 1998 Preliminary entries 4: 1998-2010 ... FIFA World Cup participations 1: 2010

Unlike UEFA, which credits Czechlovakia's records to CZE and SVK, this is certainly not the case with FIFA. Therefore, only direct sources or recent statements from FIFA could act as evidence that the successes would be credited differently in the statistics in this article.Miria~01 (talk) 23:43, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

That's ten years old though. Anything newer? Opinions might change.-Koppapa (talk) 09:11, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I couldn't find any new documents at https://inside.fifa.com/ with statistics specifically about the Slovakian team regarding the World Cup. I am also not opposed to attributing Czechoslovakia's records to both successor states, as UEFA does, but it must be proven with a source that FIFA also handles its statistics for Slovakia in this way and thus invalidates the Statistical Kit. Miria~01 (talk) 10:53, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

I have found two books that proves both the Czech and Slovak national teams are successors to Czechoslovakia. Is that enough?

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Mammoth_Book_Of_The_World_Cup/E7DABAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Czechoslovakia+successor+FIFA&pg=PT360&printsec=frontcover and https://www.google.com/books/edition/Historical_Dictionary_of_Soccer/9j1wbp2t1usC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=fifa+successor+czechoslovakia&pg=PA64&printsec=frontcover Khoa41860 (talk) 14:13, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I do see it that it says both CZE and SVK are successors to Czechoslovakia. I also recently came across this FIFA doc from 2007 which says the same on page 36. BUT it seems that even though FIFA says they're both successors, they still only count TCH records for CZE in practice. That is the case for the statistical kit posted above and this all-time ranking published after the 2014 WC. Until we see something from FIFA that actually attributes TCH records to SVK, I don't think we can do so here without violating WP:NOR and WP:V. Wburrow (talk) 14:52, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

A source from FIFA with statistics would be perfect. Because with the two books we would have only two secondary sources that state that TCH's records are attributed to both and two statistical sources from FIFA (FIFA Statistical Kit Brazil 2014 + all-time ranking 1930-2014) itself that say otherwise. Therefore I agree with @Wburrow's statement above. Miria~01 (talk) 13:56, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

There's no secret

Czechoslovakia > Czech Republic

USSR > Russia

Yugoslavia > Serbia

The other dismembered nations do not inherit the previous records. Svartner (talk) 03:00, 19 May 2024 (UTC)