Talk:Eva Perón

"Allegations of fascism and antisemitism"

This section doesn't contain a single allegation of fascism or antisemitism, only a coterie of quotes from people -- including some Jews, of course -- defending Perón against accusations that are not articulated on this page. If the charges are not laid out, why does the section need to exist at all? Very bizarre... 2607:FEA8:BFA0:BD0:DC2:F940:6B82:3BA0 (talk) 21:49, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Not true. The section quotes Tomas Eloy Martinez as saying that detractors accused Evita of being fascist, and they even invented stories about her conspiring with Nazis. The section also mentions that Spruille Braden had accused Juan Peron of being a Nazi (nazism being a form of fascism). It is customary for biographies of historical figures to have a criticism/legacy section. The section also quotes Tomás Eloy Martinez as clarifying that while Juan Peron did indeed allow Nazi war criminals to entire Argentina, Evita herself played no part in it. This is historically important information. Copy Editor (talk) 05:49, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

It appears that there's to be an edit-war going on. Whoever keeps editing the section just copy-pastes an older version which is clearly bias and, more importantly, poorly written, clumsy and difficult to read. As for the information itself; Antisemitism accusations are never fully developed. The edit that keeps popping up just claims that since the regime wasn't explicit antisemitic and Eva met with an Israeli diplomat there was no discrimination, furthermore, it later devolves into whataboutism claiming that since jews were prosecuted elsewhere whatever accusations levelled against the regime or Perón himself should be dismissed. Having said that, claiming outright that Eva herself was an antisemite would be equally shallow and reductionist, especially when no one has cited a reliable source that explicit accuses Eva Perón of antisemitism.

I feel that the antisemite defence is being used as a red-herring fallacy of sorts. Equating Peróns' fascist tendencies and demagoguery with Nazims and later attempting to demonstrate that since Perón was not explicitly antisemitic, by a transitive property he wasn't a fascist.

As for the fascisms accusations, the Perón regime was openly fascist, that is a fact. That is not what is up for discussion here. The discussion should be around the role Eva had in the regime as far a promoting a fascist ideology. A good example of this is the Tomás Eloy Martínez quote, wich someone keeps deleting in favour of a defence of the regime cosy relationship with Francisco Franco and Mussolini.

I would like to ask, whoever keeps copy-pasting over the section, that instead of just bulldozing over the parts you don't like try to properly edit by adding what you feel is being omitted, along with reliable citations. Rather than remove or censor what you don't like, try to add to the discussion.

Furthermore, a random thesis defence of someone that didn't believe Peron was a dictator does not count as a reliable source and fails to meet the standards for a Wikipedia articleMarch Fox (talk) 14:47, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

”She was not a fascist—ignorant, perhaps, of what that ideology meant. And she was not greedy. Though she liked jewelry, furs and Dior dresses, she could own as many as she desired without the need to rob others.... In 1964 Jorge Luis Borges stated that 'the mother of that woman [Evita]' was 'the madam of a whorehouse in Junín.' He repeated the calumny so often that some still believe it or, more commonly, think Evita herself, whose lack of sex appeal is mentioned by all who knew her, apprenticed in that imaginary brothel. Around 1955 the pamphleteer Silvano Santander employed the same strategy to concoct letters in which Evita figures as an accomplice of the Nazis. It is true that (Juan) Perón facilitated the entrance of Nazi criminals to Argentina in 1947 and 1948, thereby hoping to acquire advanced technology developed by the Germans during the war. But Evita played no part.” http://www.time.com/time/magazine/1997/int/970120/cinema.the_woman.html https://web.archive.org/web/20011221053805/http://www.time.com/time/magazine/1997/int/970120/cinema.the_woman.html

“Fewer antisemitic incidences took place in Argentina during Perón’s rule than during any other period in the 20th century…. Upon reading the numerous speeches that [Juan] Perón pronounced against antisemitism during his first two presidencies, it immediately becomes clear that no other president before Perón had rejected discrimination against Jews so clearly and unambiguously. The same goes for Eva Duarte de Perón. In many of her speeches, Evita argued that it was the country’s oligarchy that upheld antisemitic attitudes, but that Peronism did not.”Raanan Rein https://books.google.com/books/about/Populism_and_Ethnicity.html?id=ZX0OywEACAAJ

” Peronism was not fascism", and "Peronism was not Nazism." Crassweller also refers to the comments of U.S. Ambassador George S. Messersmith. While visiting Argentina in 1947, Messersmith made the following statement: "There is not as much social discrimination against Jews here as there is right in New York or in most places at home." Crassweller" https://books.google.com/books?id=pUyGRouspbgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Crasweller+peron&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjG4vDPnMnvAhUZJDQIHcq3CiQQ6AEwAHoECAMQAw — Preceding unsigned comment added by Copy Editor (talk • contribs) 15:18, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

@Copy Editor:

The Crassweller mention seems somewhat disingenuous as the rest of the quote is missing, there is no context and the citation doesn't indicate even the page number in the book referenced. For instance, Crassweller is also cited elsewhere in the article comparing Perón to a caudillo (local warlord) and claiming that private business and individuals were extorted into donating money to the Eva Peróns private foundation with repercussion if the donations did not meet the foundations' expectation. The same goes for Kevin Passmore. Claiming that Peron was not authoritarian because he allowed other parties to exist despite exercising media censorship, individual political repression and maintaining a climate of subjugation is more than a technicality, if not outwrite false without more context. Not to mention "what passed for fascism under Perón never took hold in Latin America." Which is nebulous at best (what does Passmore define as fascist?) and false by most standards. Latin America has had a long history of fascist dictatorships (from both sides of the traditional political spectrum), democratically elected and otherwise, Pinochet, Vargas, Chaves and the several military dictatorships and revolution in Argentian history (some the result Peronist political manoeuvring).

As for the Lawrence D. Bell dissertation, it appears that no one even bothered to read the abstract. It states that far from descending into any form of direct antisemitism Perón tried to subjugate and co-opt the Jewish community under the Peronist mantle as a way to curve any descent. And that it was thanks to the creation of Israel and the Zionist movement within the Jewish community in Argentina that helped formed a localized focus of resistance and independence to Peróns co-optation by leveraging international relations. A far cry from the tone the section appears to have.

--March Fox (talk) 16:08, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

“Peronism was not fascism…. Peronism was not nazism….” Crassweller. Peron and the Enigmas of Argentina. Pages 220-221 https://books.google.com/books?id=pUyGRouspbgC

In the book “Populism and Ethnicity: Peronism and the Jews of Argentina,” Raanan Rein writes that the perception of the Perons as fascists and nazis is not a result of serious scholarly research, but a result of popular culture — particularly the musical Evita (musical). https://books.google.com/books/about/Populism_and_Ethnicity.html?id=ZX0OywEACAAJ As Tomas Eloy Martinez concludes in his article for Time magazine, “She was far from being a saint, despite the veneration of millions of Argentines, but she was not a villain either. Human beings are full of contradictions and labyrinthine complexities. Rarely do they resemble their portrayal in the musicals of Hollywood and Broadway.” https://web.archive.org/web/20011221053805/http://www.time.com/time/magazine/1997/int/970120/cinema.the_woman.html

“This dissertation considers the question of Jewish ethnic politics in Argentina under the Peronist regime from 1946-1955. Like other Latin American populists, Peron combined a corporatist conception of the state with ideals of popular democracy and social mobilization throughout most of his first two terms as President of Argentina. As such, his regime attempted to integrate a number of traditionally excluded groups, including Argentina’s 250,000 Jews, into its socially and politically inclusive national vision.” https://etd.ohiolink.edu/apexprod/rws_olink/r/1501/10?clear=10&p10_accession_num=osu1039034580 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Copy Editor (talk • contribs) 05:06, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

From the dust jacket of Populism and Ethnicity: Peronism and the Jews of Argentina by Raanan Rein

“Juan Perón's decade-long regime, from 1946 to 1955, is often presented as Nazi-fascist and antisemitic - claims that are strongly rooted in Argentina's collective unconscious and popular culture. Challenging this widely held view, Raanan Rein asserts that there was greater Jewish support for Perón than previously believed, and that fewer antisemitic incidents took place in Argentina during Perón's rule than during any other period in the twentieth century. Recovering the silenced voices of Jewish Argentines who supported Peronism from the beginning, Populism and Ethnicity is a historical, sociological, and political analysis that describes the many positive changes experienced by the Jewish community as a direct result of Perón's presidencies. Perón and his wife Eva gave numerous speeches denouncing antisemitism, and Perón's Argentina was the first Latin American country to open an embassy in the newly established State of Israel. Arguing that no president before Perón so unambiguously rejected discrimination against Jews, Rein shows that many Jews secured more important posts in government in the 1940s and 1950s than in previous years, among them members of the Argentine Jewish Organization, which became a section of the ruling Peronist party. Deconstructing the myth of antisemitism during Perón's regime, Populism and Ethnicity looks deep into the heart of international memory for the truth behind Jewish-Argentine relations.” https://books.google.com/books/about/Populism_and_Ethnicity.html?id=ZX0OywEACAAJ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Copy Editor (talk • contribs) 06:53, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

GAR

Eva Perón

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • GAN review not found

Result: Delisting per general consensus. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:19, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

GA from 2006, it was't reassessed. Half of the article is unsourced, with 'This article needs additional citations for verification.' on top, 5 'citation needed' tags and two 'This section does not cite any sources' templates (Female Peronist Party and women's suffrage and Honours), see also unsourced sections: Juan Perón's arrest, 1946 presidential election, European tour, Vice-presidential nomination, Re-election and Spiritual Leader of the Nation; and 19 'page needed' tags. Artem.G (talk) 19:17, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Delist - Article needs a lot of work to be kept as a GA. Onegreatjoke (talk) 21:50, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Delist per above. Needs significant work. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:19, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Timeline inconsistency

Juan Peron's Arrest: Happened on October 9 (?) but then SIX days later he was freed on October 17. Does not compute. Martindo (talk) 13:35, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

@Martindo You don't know the exact time 47.203.178.72 (talk) 19:12, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

So tell me. It is inconsistent in the text. If not definitively known, then wording should be changed. No need to remain anonymous. Your comment is reasonable, though somewhat vague. Martindo (talk) 01:03, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

The Renunciation

As described in the text, "The Renunciation" took place on Aug 22th, 1951. The date given in the file history of the illustrating picture is Oct 17th, 1951. The date for the file of Eva's Renunciation speech is Aug 31st, 1951. As obviously this all must have happened at the same event we should need to clarify the exact date. Can someone help? Glamourqueen (talk) 07:47, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

@Glamourqueen I don't think anyone can help with that

sorry 47.203.178.72 (talk) 19:10, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

wedding of Eva and Juan Peròn

I think that it is amazing that they managed that a lot of People have not talk about it 47.203.178.72 (talk) 19:03, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

@47.203.178.72 It really is fascinating not a lot of People think about it.

I hope you agree about this!

thank you for your time 47.203.178.72 (talk) 19:07, 23 September 2023 (UTC)