Talk:Elastration

Claims that elastration is painful

I have removed the statements that castration is painful (eg "Elastration is considered by some the least humane method of castration practiced commercially"). The refs given have strong POV, are not authoritative, and do not seem to be based on anything scientific. For example, one states "imagine putting a rubber band around your finger and then leaving it there until your finger fell off". If you do in fact try this, you'll find that your finger (which in any case has immensely more nerve endings than a scrotum) soon goes numb.

I have used an elastrator many times on both ram lambs and bull calves, but never having had it done on me I cannot say for certain whether it is painful. However, the reaction of the animals is mild – ram lambs look uncomfortable, lie down for a few minutes, then go on skipping about with their sisters. Bull calves don't appear to notice at all – which is more than can be said for the other methods – even the anaesthetic injection used for those clearly stings quite a bit. The reaction to elastration is certainly much less than for other routine operations such as ear-tagging, or for slight injuries such as scratches and knocks. As for "rot and fall off" – they dry out to a hard lump long before they rot, even in the UK climate. The only problem I'm aware of for competently performed elastration is that the scar can sometimes get infected – but again, this is far less of a problem than with most other methods.

I'm quite prepared to be proved wrong – but it needs to be by authorative sources based on proper research. --Richard New Forest (talk) 17:51, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Richard, I am sure you are giving an honest account of your experience. However, your own experience and opinions with respect to pain are anecdotal and constitute original research according to Wikipedia policy and is certainly not a basis for removing properly cited material. The material you removed was sourced from an article in the Canadian Veterinary Journal written by a Distinguished Professor of Philosophy, Physiology and Animal Sciences at Colorado State University, "POV" notwithstanding. I would welcome and encourage you to add material to this article citing verifiable contrary viewpoints.

As to your observation that the finger has infinitely more nerve endings than the scrotum, it is not the scrotum that is a matter of concern, it is the testes and spermatic cord--which certainly have plenty of pain receptors as anyone who has been struck there can attest. To be fair, I have not attempted the banding experiment on either my fingers or my gonads.

Also, I have reviewed the edit history and sources and am puzzled as to where you got "rot and fall off" from. What the text did say was "atrophy and fall off." "Drying to a hard lump" sounds like atrophy to me, certainly more so than "rotting." NTK (talk) 00:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Here's some other sources to integrate: Mixed opinion from the AVMA: [1], favorable from an industry publication,[2] citing Bretschneinder, G. 2005. Effects of age and method of castration on performance and stress response of beef male cattle. Liv.Prod. Sci. 97, 89-100. NTK (talk) 01:11, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

These sources really do not support the claims. The "ethicist" one is about older bulls, for which there is no dispute about it being painful – it also includes heavy POV about castration generally, which is arguable to say the least. It is a personal article, not research, and as such is no better than what I wrote above – it is not a reliable source.

The two refs you give above are more academic – but in fact they oppose the claim; they suggest that it's less painful (and the negative effects mentioned are again associated with very late application, at 3 months or even a year – I do it at a week or less!).

The goat ref appears to be based heavily on the ethicist one. It is certainly not a reliable source, but just someone's POV web page. It was this one which said "died, rotted and fell off" – an indication that the writer is unfamiliar with the method; an indication reinforced by this person's choice of Burdizzo as less painful.

So where is the authorative research? We do need some to support this claim. At present, the research-based refs actually say the opposite, and the most we can say on the negative side is that there is some evidence that elastration can be painful for a while in older animals. Unless other refs are found, we need to change the article in line with those reliable refs we do have.

You are right that my own observations are OR. However, I'm not using them as refs in the article, but as a reason to expect refs for a contrary view. As I said, I'm ready to be proved wrong, but these refs don't do it. Richard New Forest (talk) 15:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

No further comments, and no proper refs forthcoming for elastration in young animals being painful. I have therefore removed that material again, and the POV refs, and replaced them with a statement that it may be painful in older animals, with the refs given above. I'm happy to see it changed back if proper contrary refs can be found. Richard New Forest (talk) 11:59, 20 October 2008 (UTC)