Talk:Dream of the Rarebit Fiend

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Questionable See also section

The two entries in the See also section refer more to the 'Welsh Rarebit' dish itself than to the comic strip. They are:

• Dagwood sandwich
• Jiggs dinner

They would be relevant in the 'Welsh rarebit' entry (other meals with comic strip connections), but not here. --Juanmejgom (talk) 16:18, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Links to other works by McCay or from the same time period would be much more useful. AsbestosBill (talk) 19:08, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

done. i didn't add anything else as the links are already readily available in the article. k kisses 16:36, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Altering the Characters and story section

The section currently portrays the strip as a "morality play" that shows a negative consequence of overindulgence, however there is no source for that claim and in some cases, the dreamer is obviously not overindulgent, such as the strips from Dec 6, 1904, in which the dreamer is a homeless man, and Jan 7, 1905, in which the dreamer is a prisoner in jail.

What I believe is more significant is that often the dream will reveal something about the character of the dreamer, but after he or she awakens, they invariably blame their agitation on something they ate rather than learning a lesson from the dream. For instance, in the strip from Feb 8, 1905, the man dreams of having an affair with a wooden Cigar Store Indian, which ends with him being divorced and forced to pay a $5,000 a minute alimony. At the end of it, rather than vowing himself against adultery, he is more concerned that Welsh Rarebit causes so much apparent night-time stress.

This theme is not absolutely consistent, though I believe there are more examples of it than support the "morality play" theory. I think mostly the strip was an examination of the surreal nature of dreams. It may also be significant that both this and Little Nemo were both set entirely in dreams, however I don't have any sources on the matter. AsbestosBill (talk) 19:08, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Fixed. Pepso2 (talk) 19:25, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Dream of the Rarebit Fiend/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: GreatOrangePumpkin (talk · contribs) 08:29, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   Too many relative pronouns in the lead

Done. Curly Turkey (gobble) 10:42, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

1. Too many commas in "McCay had begun cartooning in the 1890s, and quickly became known for his lightning-quick ability to draw, which he often displayed in chalk talks on the vaudeville stage, alongside the likes of Harry Houdini and W. C. Fields." Perhaps remove the one ahead "alongside"?

Done. Curly Turkey (gobble) 10:42, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

1. Link "Psychoanalysis"

Done. Curly Turkey (gobble) 10:42, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

1. "Gigantism also appeared frequently in the strip, with characters being overwhelmed by rapidly growing elements, which may have been compensation on McCay's part for a sense of smallness.[8]" - I think this can be reworded in a more simpler structure. Also link "Gigantism"

The problem with that is that Gigantism is an article on a biological disorder. Curly Turkey (gobble) 10:42, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

1. To avoid the ", and" format, reword the sentence to something like this: "Themes of insanity are also frequent in the strip, as his brother, Arthur, had been put away in a mental asylum.[9]"

Done. It's not clear that his brother was actually the inspiration for that. I've reworded it in a different way. Curly Turkey (gobble) 10:42, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

1. "in the originally proposed strip, a "dope stick" fiend finds himself at the North Pole, unlike to secure a cigarette and a light." - not sure what this means

Done. "unlike" was a typo for "unable". Curly Turkey (gobble) 10:42, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

1. "he awakens to find it all a dream" - ?

Done. I've named names to make the paragraph clearer. Curly Turkey (gobble) 10:42, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

1. "until the dreamer awoke" - awakes perhaps?

Done. Curly Turkey (gobble) 10:42, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

1. "the Fiend " - who?

Done. Clarified earlier in the paragraph. Curly Turkey (gobble) 10:42, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

1. "our darker selves" - should it be "one's" as per WP:YOU?

I'm pretty sure that would completely change the sense of the sentence. It is meant to include the readers as a collective. Curly Turkey (gobble) 10:42, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

1. "Comics scholar Jeet Heer called Rarebit Fiend "perhaps the most bizarre newspaper feature in American history".[3] Its has presaged ideas and scenes in the media." - something is wrong here

Done. Curly Turkey (gobble) 10:42, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

1. "One can find scenes in Rarebit Fiend in which a man kicks a dog, " - There are scenes in ...

Done. Curly Turkey (gobble) 10:42, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

1. Lead and Background needs a copyedit.--Kürbis (✔) 09:08, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

How is it now? Curly Turkey (gobble) 10:53, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

1. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

2. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

3. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

4. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

5. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

6. Overall: pass

   Pass/Fail:

Featured Article Nomination

Transcluded from Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Dream of the Rarebit Fiend/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 22:16, 7 November 2012 [1].

---

Dream of the Rarebit Fiend

Nominator(s): Curly Turkey (gobble) 03:04, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because it is a comprehensive GA article with lots of illustrations, and I think an article about crazy dreams would appeal to a large audience. CüRlyTüRkey^Talk_Contribs 03:04, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment you have a tendency to link extremely common English words—cartoonist, dreams, cartoon, nightmare, homelessness, illegibility, mosquito... Please review WP:OVERLINK and expunge accordingly.—indopug (talk) 06:38, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Done. I've done so, but I have to admit that this goes right over my head. Given that the article is about dream cartoons, I would have thought "dream" and "cartoon" would be prime candidates for linking. Curly Turkey (gobble) 06:55, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

It's wonderful that this article can be supported by several high-quality free images, but I think they should be trimmed for easy visibility (from the article page itself). For eg: the giant in NY comic needs only a couple of panels to illustrate that, and this removes the necessity of clicking on the image. If the image becomes too wide (to be visible), consider placing it in the middle and across the width of the page. Of course, if you intend for people to read the entire comic to get an idea of the sketch, then the leaving a few comics as is is fine.—indopug (talk) 02:41, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Done. Replaced two of the strips with strip details. Curly Turkey (gobble) 05:31, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• Support excellent article. The most problematic issue was the rather awkward prose in the first sections, but now as it was copyedited I don't see any more issues. Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 09:17, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Working through this now, an interesting article all round! Reviewing for prose/style issues:

Lead

• a character—usually after eating a Welsh rarebit (a cheese-on-toast dish)—has a nightmare or other bizarre dream; consider rewording this, the aside interrupts the flow and makes no sense till the end of the sentence is read. Maybe: "Instead it had a recurring theme, in which a character has a nightmare or other bizarre dream, usually as the result of eating a Welsh rarebit (a cheese-on-toast dish)". Not a big issue, just a suggestion.

Done. Curly Turkey (gobble) 23:29, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• their dreamers; personal preference, I think this reads better as "the dreamers'", otherwise the possessives in that sentence get confusing.

Background

Done. Curly Turkey (gobble) 23:29, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• lightning-quick; I'd suggest changing this to a quote and attributing Heer in some way, as it has some artistic license in the expression. Or alternatively tone down the language a bit.

Done. I reworded it instead. Curly Turkey (gobble) 23:29, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• He produced a large number of cartoons for various newspapers, and some of his; "various", "some" - very vague! You expand on it a little in the next sentence which makes me question the utility of the former. Perhaps cut it, and add more detail about his past dream comics (e.g. Prior to Dream of the Rarebit Fiend and Little Nemo McCay had shown an interest the topic of dreams in his work. He had drawn at least ten regular comic strips, some with dream-related titles such as Daydreams and It Was Only a Dream_). Just a suggestion.

Done? Actually, the source says "publications" rather than "newspapers"—he would have been producing cartoons for magazines as well. I change it to "He produced cartoons prolifically for various publications. Prior to Dream of the Rarebit Fiend and Little Nemo, McCay had shown an interest the topic of dreams in his work. Of the at least ten regular comic strips he worked on before Rarebit Fiend, some had titles such as Daydreams and It Was Only a Dream.—though this doesn't get rid of the offending "various". Curly Turkey (gobble) 05:58, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorta, I'll have a go copyediting it - see what you think. As an aside; it is good practice to avoid "-ly" words as they are a little informal, my writing tutor referred to them as "lazy" :)

"it is good practice to avoid "-ly" words as they are a little informal"—that seems like an awful broad swath of English to avoid. What was your tutor's reason for that?

"He used this talent performing chalk talks on the vaudeville stage alongside the likes of Harry Houdini and W. C. Fields. He was also a prolific cartoonist for various publications."—the problem with that is that it seems to imply that he was a vaudevillean who produced cartoons on the side, when it was the reverse that was true. In the original, I was trying to convey that he was an extremely quick, prolific artist—he could draw quickly enough to hold a live audience's attention. Curly Turkey (gobble) 11:56, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• Originally, McCay had conceived the strip in 1905 with a tobacco theme.; again, repetition (words and information) in the following sentence. Merge for clarity.

Done. Curly Turkey (gobble) 02:40, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• McCay's employer; who was his employer? I notice you cover this in the lead in more detail; which is the wrong way round, the lead should summarise material in the body of the article. Should be easy to address.

Done. I think I've clarified his employment situation (which is dealt with in more detail in "Publishing history"). Please check to see if it reads more clearly now. Curly Turkey (gobble) 02:40, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Again sorta, see my copyedits. Sorry, I didn't get as far as publishing history.

• Is the paragraph about his wife as an influence on the work in the right place? Seems more related to influences rather than background to how he began the strip.

I'm not sure that would count as an "influence" in the sense most people think of the word. It's also not clear that it was a conscious influence. Curly Turkey (gobble) 02:40, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Sure, that's a reasonable argument. I see you reordered the article quite a bit - I think that works better.

Overview

• A year before the dream romps aimed at children of Little Nemo; who are the "children of Little Nemo" :) I think the subject of that sentence is a little mixed up!

Done. Changed to "children's dream romps of". Curly Turkey (gobble) 23:29, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Hehe :) that's not quite right either. ('s is a possessive; the dream romps are Little Nemo's, the strip is for the children - correct?) Will copyedit.

• unleashed their subconsciouses on the public; feels a little overdone. Also a misspelling (subconsciouses -> subconsciousness) Edit: Actually I see what you are trying to say there - drop the "es"

Done. Change to "the subconscious". Curly Turkey (gobble) 05:46, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

I see you changed it back to "their subconscious"...I have trouble with the idea that two people would have one subconscious... Curly Turkey (gobble) 11:42, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Pluralising "subconscious" is awkward, from a style perspective. Using it as a collective noun is the generally accepted solution (their being a plural possessive pronoun). The alternative "subconsciousness" would be acceptable. --Errant ^(chat!) 12:25, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• Winsor McCay first produced the hallucinogenic comic strip Dream of the Rarebit Fiend.; isn't this covered by the background? That whole first sentence should probable be reorder, starting with something like "Dream of the Rarebit Fiend was published a year before McCay's Little Nemo, and a full generation before the Dalis and Ernsts of the..."

Done. Reworded, but I've also moved the sections around. I think "Overview" comes better before "Background". Curly Turkey (gobble) 06:16, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• The strip had no recurring characters, but only a recurring concept; slightly stifled. Maybe: "Rather than feature recurring characters, each strip followed the same plot theme;"

Done? Change to "The strip had no recurring characters, but followed one theme". Curly Turkey (gobble) 06:16, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• to the underside; not the easiest word to understand in this context, more specific discussion on this would be good.

Done. Changed to "darker side". Curly Turkey (gobble) 02:40, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Much better!

• more and more; redundancy (remove "and more").(done myself, now I am on a decent connection :)) See Tony's excellent advice on wordiness.

• You use a lot of colon's - that's not against the style guide, but it does interrupt the flow.

• it was not the sort of dish one would likely associate with having nightmares; an odd comment. A well known urban theory is that cheese gives you nightmares. Maybe attribute it to the source?

Done. Really? I'd never heard that. I've attributed the line to Scott Bukatman. Curly Turkey (gobble) 05:46, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Yup :) perhaps it is a UK thing, I don't know!

• "sometime"; personal preference, I'm not a huge fan of the word. I'd rewrite that whole sentence.. such as: "In later Fiend strips the rarebit was replaced by lobster and other foods, or occasionally no source for the nightmare was given".

Done. Changed to "In later strips, occasionally a lobster or other food". Curly Turkey (gobble) 05:46, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• Do you have details on "other foods"?

Yes, but they are all trivial, infrequent one-time things. The lobster stand s out, as it shows evidence of the influence of Harle Oren Cummins' book. Curly Turkey (gobble)

I'd suggest just mentioning it in the influences then, and taking it out of the earlier part, as the latter lacks any such context. Again, just a suggestion.

Done. Curly Turkey (gobble) 12:02, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• This section references Nemo, a later strip, a lot. But in a disjointed way. It may be worth considering collating all the comparisons to Nemo at the end of the section. Then just focus on first introducing Fiend

Done? I've consolidated a bunch of the Nemo stuff in one place. Curly Turkey (gobble) 22:21, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

So far pretty good! More later --Errant ^(chat!) 11:56, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Crossed out some, will also do some copyedits. --Errant ^(chat!) 09:27, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Support on prose. --Errant ^(chat!) 11:56, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done

• Retrieval dates aren't needed for GBooks links

Done. Curly Turkey (gobble) 23:29, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• What makes this a high-quality reliable source? This? This? This? Nikkimaria (talk) 18:50, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

I've replaced or removed three of those, but the I've kept the essay by Huib van Opstal (the actual address is this). Van Opstal is a Dutch comics scholar who has published a Dutch-language biography on Tintin's Hergé (Essay RG) and contributed in English to Paul Gravett's 1001 Comics You Must Read Before You Die. The essay linked was also previously excerpted in Broken Frontier. Curly Turkey (gobble) 02:13, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• Weak Oppose- The quality of this article is without a doubt, high. The media and detail is spectacular! The prose isn't quite there yet. At times, it's fantastic, and at others, it's awkward. A bit of tuning-up is needed. I hate to be a pain, but...

Lead

Dream of the Rarebit Fiend was a newspaper comic strip by American cartoonist Winsor McCay which began 10 September 1904. - Odd that it doesn't mention when the strip ends, too.

This is mainly because the strip "ended" several times—it ended when McCay switched employers in 1911, but then was revived (in color) by the old paper he worked for (with unpublished material), and separately under different titles between 1911 and 1913. It was revived again in 1923 and was brought to an end again sometime in 1925. In this last run, only seven examples have survived—the paper in which they were run hasn't really survived in archives, so the start and end dates for this last run are simply unknown, and may never be known. Different sources state the strip ran 1904–1911 or 1904–1913. Merkl's book, which reprints strips from the 1920s, says 1904–1913 right on the front cover. Curly Turkey (gobble) 00:18, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Bizarre dreams made up the content of the strip, as they would the following year in McCay's signature strip, Little Nemo. - An awkward sentence. Better as "The strip focused on bizarre dreams..." The "as they would" strikes me as particularly awkward.

Better? Curly Turkey (gobble) 00:18, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Instead, it had a recurring theme: a character has a nightmare or other bizarre dream, usually after eating a Welsh rarebit (a cheese-on-toast dish). The character awakens from the dream in the last panel, regretting having eaten the rarebit. - Switching tenses here.

Done. Curly Turkey (gobble) 04:50, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

The popularity of Rarebit Fiend and Nemo led to McCay being hired for William Randolph Hearst's chain of newspapers with a star's salary. - Star's salary needs to be replaced.

Is "star" the issue? Curly Turkey (gobble) 04:50, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Overview

Winsor McCay first produced the hallucinogenic Dream of the Rarebit Fiend in 1904, a year before his dream romps of Little Nemo and a full generation before the Dalis and Ernsts of the Surrealist movement unleashed their subconscious on the public. - I don't think the Dalis and Ernsts bit is formal. I'd suggest just "a full generation before the artists of Surrealist movement unleashed..."

Done. Curly Turkey (gobble) 00:18, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Background

He became known for an ability to draw quickly, a talent he often employed during chalk talks on the vaudeville stage (alongside the likes of Harry Houdini and W. C. Fields). - This probably needs a citation.

The citation is Heer 2006, which follows the next sentence. Curly Turkey (gobble) 00:18, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Despite the bleak view in the strip, McCay's work was so popular that he was hired by William Randolph Hearst in 1911 with a star's salary. - Star's salary again.

Publishing history

McCay mode over 300 more Rarebit Fiend episodes than he made of the more famous Little Nemo.[34] - A total count would be useful! (I fixed the typo).

Difficult, given that the exact number of episodes from the 1920s is unknown. I just used the "over 300" number from the source. Curly Turkey (gobble) 00:18, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Collections

The Dover edition was missing the final strip from the original collection, however, as it contained ethnic humor that the publisher believed would not be to the taste of a 1970s audience. - Was missing isn't the right way to phrase this. Lacked or dropped would be better.

Done. Curly Turkey (gobble) 00:18, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Checker released Dream of the Rarebit Fiend: The Saturdays (ISBN ) - Did you mean to include the ISBN number?

Done. Curly Turkey (gobble) 00:18, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Conversions. This is an article about an American author, so conversions should be, for example, inches first, then cm. You switch between systems, using ft at one point and converting to m (correct way), then converting cm to inches.

Done. Curly Turkey (gobble) 00:18, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Numbers. In Collections, you spell out three hundred. It should be 300. In Influences, you spell out fifteen; 15.

Done. Curly Turkey (gobble) 00:18, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Great work so far. ceranthor 22:35, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

• Support - My concerns have been addressed or answered adequately. The star's salary bit isn't a dealbreaker by any means. ceranthor 22:17, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

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