Talk:Dover

Dover's future

How about news on Dover's future plans, the Dover Harbour Board redevelopment? There has been a lot of local press and is pretty major. There is of course the long-running St. James's area redevelopment plans that should get a mention. IJMacD 22:37, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

Though 198.54.202.242 vandalised a couple of times earlier in the day, his/her final edit did actually identify an inaccuracy in the article: there does now appear to be a regular Dover-Boulogne ferry again. Will amend the article to reflect this. Matthewmayer 19:03, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Moved from article

I have moved this from the article cause I'm not sure what to do with it.

Local radio - Neptune Radio, Dover's own station

Dover's local radio station came to air as Neptune Radio on the 29th September 1997 at 7am after closing as a month long trial at 3am the same morning. The trial station was known as "The Sound" which broadcast both to White Cliffs Country (Dover) and Shepway (Folkestone) as two stations "Shepway Sound" and "White Cliffs Sound" throughout the 1990's. The station was due to come on air as "The Sound" however changed it's name to Neptune Radio due to it's closeness to the sea. The station actually has it's roots in the 1970's as pirate radio station Channel Radio, run by Dovorian Eddie Austin. Austin also was one of the founder members of Invicta FM, Kent's commercial wide station and also worked on Radio Caroline. He got numerous fines but vowed to keep fighting until the town had it's own licence. Channel Radio broadcast only over the Dover area. The station came on air in 1997 broadcasting from one of the oldest buildings in Dover, next door to the Kent Messenger offices at 7 Church Street, near to the town's Market Square being a central location. The station has it's own mascot "King Neptune" and was a truly local station with attendance at numerous local events. It broadcast on 96.4 FM (Folkestone) and 106.8FM (Dover) and won UK Radio Station of the Year twice in 1999 and 2000. It's successful format was later applied to it's sister stations Arrow in Hastings and Sovereign Radio in Eastbourne when the station was bought by Radio Investments limited. A group from Neptune Radio also applied for the Ashford licence under the name Ashford FM spearheaded by Mark Carter, however they did not gain the licence. In 2001 the Kent Messenger bought Neptune Radio and moved the station not long after from Dover to Folkestone however still using the Dover offices for news reports. In 2003 the station was a rebranded as KM-fm Dover & Folkestone, the end of the era of local radio as from now on programming was networked with other KM-fm's with news piped in from Canterbury. Eddie Austin now lives in Malaysia. Recently the KM-fm offices/studios and Kent Messenger Offices in Dover moved to the old Dover Express offices in the High Street, Dover with a KM-fm sign, so perhaps there are going to be studios in Dover again with local programming. However Neptune Radio was a successful station reaching 30,000 people a week. KM-fm however still has yet to prove it can be as good as Neptune Radio.

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This is rather POV and looks like it has been copied from somewhere. perhaps it should be NPOV ed and put in its own article somewhere. I dont see how this much detail about a radio station can be justified on the main dover page. Any thoughts anyone. G-Man 20:04, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dover's clossness to France:

It is the closest English point of proximity to France and continental Europe being only 21 miles (34 kilometres) from the French port of Calais. The French name of Dover is Douvres, pronounced [duvʀ]. It is famous for its white cliffs, which are made of chalk. The cliffs gave Britain its nickname of Albion, meaning "white". The town's name derives from the Brythonic word for water.

Dover is not the clossest point to france, i belever St margrate at Cliff is closser. it is the closest port. but to say its the closest POINT is misleading. as of now, im not quite sure what is the closest point. tooto 2 July 2005 13:51 (UTC)

Cleanup needed (15:47, 18 July 2006 (UTC))

I've begun cleaning this article up (wikifying, moving images for better distribution, etc.), but a lot more is needed. Especially in need is the History section (and below, to a lesser extent).

History Section (18:55 6 September 2006 BST )

The history section jumps rather alarmingly from the Romans to post Conquest times. Did nothing interesting happen there?

Cleaned up infobox a bit

Cleaned up and added the essential info to the infobox.

The population counts from the census read as follows:

K91900 Dover Urban Area	39,078
 K91901 Dover			34,087
 K91902 Whitfield		4,991

I chose the urban count, please change if that isn't correct. Hjbotha 14:17, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Collaboration

As mentioned on the Project Kent page, I am trying out an idea on a collaboration technique.

I have created a subpage which contains a section for every section on the main Dover article page. This makes it easier to keep track of specific comments and suggestions, whilst keeping the main talk page free of clutter.

To start with, I would suggest reading through the article, making comments as you go. Hopefully, a few people will voice an opinion, and we can start improving the article. At this stage, the collaboration page is useful for editors working on a particular section.

I have used the technique before, but this will be the first time it has had its own page. I welcome any comments or suggestions at Template talk:Collaborate. MortimerCat 16:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I declare the experiment an absolute failure!!! MortimerCat 18:49, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

More vandalism?

If not purely mischievous, the comment "It is also famous for its large population of Homosexuals" is any rate bizarre! Grubstreet 11:02, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Part rewrite

I have begun the rewriting of this article. Originally it was almost completely a series of lists, against Wiki polcy. So far I have:

• rewritten the introduction, making it just a summary of the article
• added a geography section
• moved the history section to a new article History of Kent (also to be rejigged). I have written a summary para here
• Collected together what were disparate statements under logical headings.
• I still have to bring the remaining sections under the same format, including the list of people most of whom are too modern!

I did not understand why there was a long list of blogs; and many of the - too many IMO -references just repeated each other: never mind the quality, feel the width idea, I guess!

Please bear with me while I complete the task Peter Shearan (talk) 10:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I have just breathed a sigh of relief that the most important sections of the article are ready for the public gaze. Note that:

• I have tried to reduce the number of lists... It seemed a little too sketchy to simply list the ferry services, so have done some adding to the Shipping section - Dover is now much more than just ferries!
• I have also added a Government section;
• and a Culture section (which needs adding to - museums, arts etc)
• there needs to be a religious section too (so often missed out, I have discovered);
• and a communications section (roads, railways etc).
• Surely there must have been some "famous people" in Dover's past - they are all the ephemeral people of today! (Shane Taylor, Topper Headon - wow how important are they??)
  • Very careless! the category listed many more and from the past. Since all the ones now listed have an article to themselves it seemed unnecessary to go into any more than brief details on the new article List of people from Dover, either; and I have added their dates Peter Shearan (talk) 14:06, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

As I said - ready for the public gaze, but I hope it reads these notes as well!!

Peter Shearan (talk) 15:18, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Sale to France

what is this? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1249194/Dover-symbol-British-sovereignty-sold-French-help-reduce-debt.html#ixzz0etxiHFeP I passed through this on the internet a few times and I'm not sure if it's true or not Shiftadot (talk) 15:18, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move or rename either page, though the possibility for a change in policy resulting from an ongoing discussion at the Village Pump remains. —Soap— 12:54, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) With valid points on both sides, there is simply too much opposition. Change to any current situation needs a degree of agreement, which is not showing here. It is clear that this requested move has failed to gain consensus in any form. Therefor, I'm closing this discussion as no consensus to move. — Edokter • Talk • 13:05, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

---

{{movereq}}

Dover → Dover, Kent — There are several meanings of Dover besides the British city. For example, there is Dover, Delaware, which is the state capital of the U.S. state of Delaware and has a population similar to that of Dover, England. There is also Dover (district), which serves as the government district around the British city. In addition, Dover is also used as the name for several other places in multiple countries, as a surname, and as the name of a few companies and objects. Dough4872 01:27, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

• Dover (disambiguation) → Dover

• Support: Clearly can refer to multiple important things Purplebackpack89 03:23, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
• Support The views for the Delaware city alone justify it: 14390 to 19172 last month. There is no primary topic here. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 03:26, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
• Support the portion of England next to the English Channel is also highly likely, as are the White Cliffs. 76.66.199.238 (talk) 04:11, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
• I'm less sure about this one than I am Plymouth. Dover, to me means the English city (or at least the White Cliffs of Dover). Dover may be the name of the capital of Delaware, but Delaware is small both in population and size (and I assumed Wilmington was the capital). DC T•C 06:26, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose 1. It's not just a question of size. Cultural significance comes into it too. The White Cliffs of Dover was written by an American, who was in no doubt about which Dover he was referring to. 2. Views for Dover, Delaware are not the point. We are discussing the primary topic for the term Dover, not the term Dover, Delaware. How often is Dover, Delaware referred to as plain Dover (outside Delaware)? 3. Dover Kent, would be ambiguous - Dover, Delaware is also in Kent. --Mhockey (talk) 09:56, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Actually, a lot of NASCAR fans from other states recognize Dover as it is home to two race weekends a year at Dover International Speedway. Dough4872 02:44, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose This is not I'm British 'so I must be bias' but because this town of Dover and Dover, Delaware are BOTH in a Kent of some form.Likelife (talk) 10:58, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. Dover with its white cliffs etc is a cultural icon recognised all over the world. No other meaning comes close, with apologies to the citizens of Delaware. Andrewa (talk) 11:40, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose - Seriously, all these sudden requested moves are verging on disruptive and POINTy. Mhockey got it down to a tee with The White Cliffs of Dover, Dover is iconic, Dover, Delaware is what? Out of interest, are we going to see a requested move for London to go to London, London? Jeni ^(talk) 12:13, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
  • That's a slippery-slope fallacy. Powers ^T 13:36, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
    • Not only that, but it also supports the use of a dab page as the primary topic. We're saying that even in England it refers to multiple things, and you verified that. Cliffs of Dover, and Dover, Kent.
    • And where's the POINT? I'm not seeing that from Doug and Floyd, only from you Purplebackpack89 18:20, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
• Support. No clear primary topic here. No matter how iconic the White Cliffs are, that doesn't make the city in England the primary topic for Dover. Powers ^T 13:36, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose - cultural significance and ambiguity of "..., Kent", per Mhockey and Jeni. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:47, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose As per all the oppose reasons above. This article has been here since 2002. I am suggesting that according to comments made by some editors on talk pages, that the proposal has been made purely for nationalistic reasons that are inappropriate for the Wikipedia, especially as this is a sudden initiative to carry similar moves to many English places including Peterborough, Plymouth, Sydenham, Cornwall & Cambridge whose pages have been here for a very long time and include featured articles.--Kudpung (talk) 22:50, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

OK, so it's taken eight years to realize something was wrong with an article's name. If it's been broken, it can be fixed at any time. But to say it's an American power grab my Floyd, Dough and I is redick. Absolutely redick. Purplebackpack89 02:28, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

• Comment : This discussion is premature due an ongoing policy discussion on policy that has not yet been resolved. --Kudpung (talk) 00:18, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment: No, it's a chicken and egg situation in which policy is influenced by specific decisions which are themselves influenced by policy. There's no right or wrong sequence for change, but participants in either discussion stream should be aware of and take note of the other. This discussion is actually very timely. No change of vote. Andrewa (talk) 01:05, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
• Comment - If Dover, Kent is too ambiguous based on the fact Dover, DE is also in a Kent County, then the article could be moved to Dover, Kent, England or Dover, England. Alternatively, a hatnote could be placed on Dover, Kent stating that "This article is about the city in England. For the city in Kent County, Delaware, see Dover, Delaware." Dough4872 02:49, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
• Mild support like User:DC, I am less sure about this one than Plymouth, but in the opposite direction! Dover, Delaware, as one of the fifty state capitals clearly punches above the weight that its population would suggest. And the Dover in England is not a major regional centre as Plymouth is, although it must have one of the highest ratio of passing through visitors to population due to its ferry port.  — Amakuru (talk) 06:42, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Whether or not it is a "major regional centre" seems irrelevant - it is the major port of entry into England from overseas, and known nationally - and internationally in Europe - for that reason. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:29, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Dover, DE is known throughout the U.S., which has a population much larger than that of the UK, as a state capital, home of a NASCAR race track, and the site of Dover Air Force Base, which has the only military mortuary in the continental US. Dough4872 15:16, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but its known as either Dover, DE or Dover, Delaware, and the relevant populations of the US and the UK are not greatly relevant - I wouldn't be surprised if more US citizens had an ancestor from Dover than one from Dover, DE. ϢereSpielChequers 16:46, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

At this point, I don't think the argument should be about which Dover is more important. The motivation for the move is due to the fact "Dover" is ambiguous and used for several places besides the British city and the state capital of Delaware. There are 5 Dovers in Canada, 1 in Singapore, the UK one, 26 in the United States (including Dover, DE), and several places called Dover Township. In addition, there are at least 9 people with a surname of Dover and several corporations and landmarks that have Dover in them, in both the US and the UK. Another point of argument I have made is the fact Britsh cities shouldn't be exempt from disambiguation unless they are large cities such as London. This case would apply to Dover as well as other cities such as Plymouth. Dough4872 21:55, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Primary topic isn't just highest population. DC T•C 21:59, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

At this point, what Dover is the most populated or most recognized doesn't matter. It is the fact there are too many meanings of Dover for one article to have the priority, whereas "Dover" being a dab page is the best option. Dough4872 22:10, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose, the town in Kent is the Primary use of the word, having existed since Roman times. Dover, Delaware is a mere upstart founded in 1683. Mjroots (talk) 09:25, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

It's a good thing it isn't 1684 then, or we'd be doing this for nothing. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 14:39, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Age alone is hardly enough to make a determination of primary topic. (Elsewise, we'd have Boston, Lincolnshire at the base name!) Powers ^T 14:54, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, and we'd have Washington, Tyne and Wear (a small village). Age and historical importance don't mean everything Purplebackpack89 18:44, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose if we were a trade listing only concerned with current business advertsing then I could see a case for this, but we are an encyclopaedia, and so the length of history counts as we need to think of all the articles about historic events that will mention Dover not just stuff from the modern era. ϢereSpielChequers 11:49, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

We also need to think about whether or not historical importance is couched in the guidelines for PRIMARYTOPIC... which it isn't Purplebackpack89 18:44, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose just as I would oppose changes to Gloucester, Essex, Portsmouth, or Manchester (even though Manchester, Massachusetts is much prettier than the original). --Simple Bob (talk) 18:10, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose for all the reasons above. Dover is known throughout the US what kind of an argument is that? The acid test of what the primary topic should be is how well known it is internationally and I'm willing to bet that most people outside of the UK or US will point to the port of Dover. Whatever next, Paris?--Ykraps (talk) 22:33, 25 October 2010 (UTC) BTW if I was you I'd race over to Talk:Boston, Lincolnshire

If you were an American school student and learned your state capitals, you should have heard of it. Dough4872 22:53, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

I didn't say I'd never heard of it, I merely pointed out that the rest of the world is more likely to think of one of the world's busiest ferry ports!--Ykraps (talk) 06:48, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Primary topic determination is a relative consideration. That is, you can't just look at one topic and decide if it is primary or not based on its own importance. You have to look at others uses of the same name, and, if they are significant enough (as established by page view counts, for example), then there is no primary topic, no matter how important the first use may seem to be. --Born2cycle (talk) 03:40, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Dover is a state capital... --Admrboltz (talk) 00:23, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
• Support: Make Dover a disambiguation or set list article. Since we seem to be divided on nationalist grounds, we should aim for an objective solution. Favoring Dover in U.K. over Dover, Delaware would show bias either way, so I evoke Solomon. — Viridiscalculus (talk) 00:45, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

As I've pointed out in other discussions Solomon stopped short of actually 'disambiguating' the kid. The 'wise' bit was in his determining which was the 'primary' mother without destroying anything. Disambiguating absolutely everything ambiguous just makes Wikipedia an arid resource. Where there is a primary topic it should be applied. 86.26.8.192 (talk) 16:53, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

• Support making Dover the disambiguation page per Viridiscalculus. Dover means many things in both countries. In the US, it is a state capital and a major sporting venue (the speedway). In the UK is is a city and a set of cliffs about which a song was written. No one of these should gain a claim as the primary topic. Imzadi 1979 → 01:54, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Please try to stop being so insular. Dover is much more than that. This has nothing to do nationalism (not on my part anyway). I have opposed moving Boston because Boston, Massachusets is the primary topic and I am opposing moving Dover because Dover (UK) is the primary topic.--Ykraps (talk) 06:55, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Dover UK is not the primary topic, neither is Dover, DE or any other town called Dover. Due to this fact, Dover needs to be a dab page due to the lack of a primary topic. Dough4872 15:30, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Dover (UK) has a rich history going back to its first settlers some 6000 years ago. It is home to Dover castle, Roman and Napoleonic forts, a Roman lighthouse and the world's oldest maritime vessel. Dover is 'the lock and key of England' as recognised by Julius Ceasar, William the Conqueror, Napoleon and Hitler (none of these people are British by the way). It was of paramount importance during both World wars, it is one of the 'Cinque Ports', it is at the end of the world's busiest shipping lane and it is the world's busiest ferry port. If it doesn't qualify as a primary topic, what on earth does? Apparently Google seems to think its the primary topic too.--Ykraps (talk) 21:29, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Historical value does not automatically make it the primary topic. Dough4872 04:07, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

These things hold true to this day. Dover (UK) is of strategic importance to your country too!--Ykraps (talk) 07:33, 27 October 2010 (UTC) (Is there any particular reason why this comment was removed?--Ykraps (talk) 12:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)).

I am not saying that Dover UK is unimportant. I am saying there are other notable meanings of Dover that warrant "Dover" to be a dab page. Dough4872 15:41, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose I thought I should actually add my opposition, as this bizarre request doesn't seem to be going away. Dover in the UK is clearly the primary topic here (using a quick calculation using a poorly defined metric based on history, cultural significance, page hits and international expectation). As others have said, Dover in the UK is the main link to mainland Europe, making it important for everything from invasion to freight. GyroMagician (talk) 08:07, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
  • This is supposed to me an argument for why this use is the primary use of "Dover"? Because it's the primary use in one country??? Seriously? Because it's the main link to mainland Europe? primary topic determination needs to take into consideration the other uses of the same term, and how popular their usage is relative to this one. None of this is given consideration in this "argument", which is typical of those arguments presented in opposition to this move. I hope the closer discounts the weight of these comments accordingly, because some people seem to think all they have to do get fully counted is write "Oppose" followed by an opinion not based in policy or guidelines or anything. --Born2cycle (talk) 03:37, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
    • I would have said in one continent rather than in one country. Being the main link between England and the rest of Europe has focussed a significant part of history on this town (be that Roman or WWII - see Dover Castle for more detail). In particular, during WWII, Dover became something of an icon, representing England. True, this example is of most importance in England itself, but is also well-known in the rest of the world. Hence, popular usage. Or does my reasoning not count because I disagree with you? GyroMagician (talk) 10:19, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose Per all the opposers. Ericoides (talk) 08:12, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose this is the English section of the encyclopedia so as Dover, Kent is an English town it should stay as the prime topic, in a different language section the town/city which speek that language would probably have their place as the prime topic. Homan's Copse (talk) 09:52, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Given your move request at Talk:Boston, Lincolnshire, I should warn you you're on the verge of disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. Powers ^T 12:05, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
    • The sheer ignorance presented above reminds me of a quote from the Simpsons: "We're gonna be late for English!" "Pfffft English. Who needs that? I'm never going to England." - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 21:20, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
• Support Either the state capital of Delaware or Dover International Speedway is the primary topic. Just being the first X doesn't mean that it is the most important as it has been argued here. I could make the same argument that Dover, Delaware is one of the most historic cities in the U.S. with a rich history since it was one of the earlier cities where the U.S. colonies started. I don't understand why so many cities in the U.K. don't follow a predetermined naming scheme like the U.S. cities do. Royalbroil 03:29, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
• Support. Part of the problem here is an artifact of the convention to disambiguate almost all U.S. cities even when unnecessary which obviously gives some people the false impression that, for example, the most common name for the capital of Delaware is not Dover but Dover, Delaware, and so they discount its weight accordingly in determining whether this other use of "Dover" is primary. It's one of the many reasons I have long opposed that convention, but I digress.

  To use arguably the best known city in the world as an extreme illustrative example, if the capital of Texas was moved from Austin to Paris, Texas, then Paris would have to be moved to Paris, France to make room for Paris (disambiguation) at Paris. The idea that some use of a term could be primary when another use of the same name is a capital of a U.S. state is preposterous. Even Lincoln is a dab page because of the capital of Nebraska despite Lincoln being the surname of probably the most famous of all U.S. Presidents. You simply can't claim primary topic of a term when another use of that term is anywhere near as a big as is Dover, Delaware a use of "Dover".

  In the end the page view counts speak volumes.

  • Dover,_Delaware has been viewed 14390 times in 201009.
  • Dover has been viewed 19172 times in 201009.

Remember, those 19172 views include those from anyone who gets there incorrectly because it is currently at the plain name, Dover. But even if we ignore that (which probably accounts for several thousand false hits), that means it only gets 30% more hits than the Delaware Dover. That hardly meets the "much more likely than any other" criteria clearly set out at WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.

There is no primary topic for "Dover"; the dab page must be at Dover. --Born2cycle (talk) 03:34, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I rather think you have debunked your previous argument. The fact that Dover (US) is a state capital is only important in one country. Dover (UK) is renowned internationally! To suggest that if Paris, Texas became a state capital, it should be given equal footing to the capital of France beggars belief. If Washington, Tyne and Wear became a county town do you think Washington DC should go to a dab page?--Ykraps (talk) 07:15, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Ykraps that I don't see the logic, or convention, that if two places are the capitals of territories they must be disambiguated on that basis. MRSC (talk) 09:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Remember also that the views for Dover, Delaware include those (many, I suspect) who got there by looking for...Dover, Delaware. The state name is not just a disambiguator. It is the way many people refer to the place. --Mhockey (talk) 13:29, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Many people refer to London as "London, England". Should we make that move as well? Keep in mind that at 350 million residents, the US has about half of the population of the entirety of Europe. If 62,000,000 Brits were taught in school that Dover is the point of entry to Europe, and 350,000,000 Americans were taught that Dover is the capital city of Delaware, then there is a very large discrepancy. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 15:15, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

You appear to have forgotten about the rest of the English speaking world! As I keep saying, the test is an international one.--Ykraps (talk) 17:12, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Another thing to keep in mind is that most of the English-speaking world lives in North America and may have little idea about Dover, England. The British city is known mainly in Europe, where the only prevelant area of English speakers is the British Isles. This area has less people than the US and Canada. In the US, many people may think of Dover, DE and its associated topics like the raceway or the air force base, or another city named Dover, when hearing of the term rather than the British city. Dough4872 18:16, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Your lack of understanding about the rest of the world is quite frankly, frightening! Most of the English speaking world does not live in North America! There are of 400,000,000 English speakers in India alone, add to that 18,000,000 Australians, 3,500,000 Kiwis, 39,000,000 S. Africans, 89,000,000 Nigerians, 18,000,000 Ugandans, 26,000,000 Kenyans, the list goes on and on and on and I don't think this is the place for a geography lesson! Please feel free to check it out yourself.--Ykraps (talk) 09:25, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree that Dover, DE is often referred to with the state name, and the current article title "Dover, Delaware" is perfectly fine. The problem is the term "Dover" alone can refer to many things, not just the British city. In addition, many residents in the Mid-Atlantic region of the United States will often refer to Dover, Delaware without a state name. Dough4872 15:19, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• Comment - Some article traffic stats from September: White Cliffs of Dover: 19353, Dover, Kent: 19172, Dover, Delaware: 14390, Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District: 11312, Strait of Dover: 7481, Dover Air Force Base: 7135, Dover International Speedway: 6494, Dover (district): 1550, Dover (disambiguation): 1311. From what is seems, the British city does not have too many more viewers than the Delaware capital. In addition, the article about the White Cliffs has more hits than the city. Based on these results, it is too murky to call the British city the primary topic. Dough4872 19:08, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I would not draw that conclusion. I would discount the title of the legal case, which is not really about any Dover. If the purpose of the page views is to show how notable each place is, then I would count 47,556 for the English port (the White Cliffs, Dover, the Strait, the district) against 28,019 for Dover, DE (Dover, DE, the AF base and the speedway). But it's the low score for the dab page which is telling - if a user searching for Delaware lands on Dover, the hatnote would take him to the dab page, and that suggests to me that not many users searching for Dover, DE do land on Dover, i.e. the status quo does not seem to be causing much of a problem. --Mhockey (talk) 22:02, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

The legal case pertains to an event that happened in Dover, Pennsylvania. Notability of the place is not why the move was suggested, it was suggested since Dover can mean multiple things on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean. This seems to be turning into a UK versus US argument where UK editors favor Dover, UK being the primary topic whereas US editors favor a dab page because of the notoriety of Dover, DE. The argument over whether Dover, DE or Dover, UK is more important is not the reason for the move, they are both equally important to their respective countries as Dover, DE is a state capital and Dover, UK is a major port. Aside from the capital of DE and the UK port, there are several other populated places named Dover including Dover, New Hampshire (28,880, nearly as many people as the UK city) and Dover, New Jersey (18,188). In addition, there are several landmarks with the name "Dover" in both the US and UK as mentioned above. Dover is also a surname and readers could be looking for someone with that last name. In conclusion, there are too many meanings of the word "Dover" for any one subject to be the primary topic. Dough4872 23:05, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Dough4872, would I be correct to summarise your position as 'if more than one page exists that could use the primary spot, a disambiguation page should always be used'? Just trying to understand your thinking ;-) GyroMagician (talk) 23:54, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Generally yes, as in this case. Many widely used terms for names and places, such as Columbus, Columbia, Lincoln, and Washington exist as dab pages. Dough4872 00:09, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

This is not a US v. UK argument. If anything it appears to be a Dough V. the rest of the world argument. You have already demonstrated your lack of knowledge regarding the R.O.W. by claiming most English speakers live in N. America. Perhaps if you knew more about the R.O.W. you wouldn't be making this proposal. And if you knew a bit more about N.A.T.O., you might also appreciate just how important Dover (UK) is to the US.--Ykraps (talk) 12:02, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

By the way, I am not the only person who supports a move. There are several other users who have also agreed that Dover needs to be a dab page because it has multiple meanings. Dough4872 15:32, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose: Agree that 'Dover' clearly can refer to multiple important things, but few outside the United States would have heard of an unambiguous 'Dover' within its border, there being one namesake in more than half the US states. I would also say that none are more important than the guardhouse to the English Channel. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 06:05, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

People are turning it into a US versus UK argument. As for the rest of your point, List of countries by English-speaking population seems to indicate otherwise. At a combined 280 million speakers, North America has a significant percentage of the English speaking world. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 15:32, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

This source is labelled both inaccurate and incomplete! I have only given it a cursory glance but there appears to be at least 4 English speaking nations missing. My source (a Phillips Atlas) suggests that 40% of Indians speak English as a first language. Even using the much lower figure of 2 million plus, the majority of English speakers live outside N. America.--Ykraps (talk) 13:47, 29 October 2010 (UTC) BTW, who refers to London as London, England? Surely only those living in the U.S, Canada and Kiribati.

• Oppose Having several (less significant) meanings other than one very famous one has no effect on this primary topic. Dover, Delaware is relatively unheard of internationally. Dover (non-metropolitan district) is not equally well known as Dover the town, or as significant. Dover may have been used as the name for several other places in multiple countries, as a surname, and as the name of a few companies and objects, but none are as well known as the town in England. MRSC (talk) 06:36, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. Dover, Delaware seems to be known as precisely that, so it doesn't 'compete' with the British town of Dover. The British one is also very well known internationally as one of the main gateways into the country whereas I would be surprised if many people at all outside the US had heard of the Delaware one. Add in the history, and that the Delaware one is named after the British one and I think it is reasonable to say that the British town is the primary topic. Quantpole (talk) 13:29, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

That's not true. The Delaware ending is a result of US place naming convention, designed to avoid nationalism as is the case with so very many British places. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 15:32, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Really? So someone if someone in California was talking about 'Dover' people would know that it was the Delaware one he was talking about rather than any of the other Dover's in the US? All of the non-local news reporting I have seen says Dover, Del. Quantpole (talk) 08:03, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

The AP Stylebook calls for the state name to be used after Dover, which is also the case for almost every other city except for a select list of larger cities. It is standard US convention to use the state name after cities. Dough4872 15:15, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

It is standard US convention - isn't this the point? It is a standard US convention, so US (and worldwide) readers expect to see it. It isn't a UK convention, so British places are very rarely listed in such a form. At WP, we should be trying to present all topics as readers expect to find them, no? GyroMagician (talk) 18:25, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose per Ykraps. Also, Dover is known worldwide and has other cities in other continents named after it. --Joshua Issac (talk) 16:50, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Just because it was the original Dover doesn't mean it is the primary use. In addition, it is debatable to say Dover, UK, or any other Dover, is known worldwide. Dough4872 20:36, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose As per the lengthy discussions at Talk:Plymouth, Talk:Peterborough, Talk:Cornwall, Talk:Cambridge, Talk:York (amongst others) and village pump which Floydian also created. Creating such proposals en masse is a disruptive misuse of process, bringing more heat than light. If you wish to reply to this opinion and have aired your views several times in this discussion, please first consider the guidance of WABBITSEASON. Thanks, Fæ (talk) 15:54, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
  • So we can check that down as an oppose because you believe the discussion itself (and not the points raised in it) is flawed? - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 16:05, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
    • No, my oppose is due to this being a poorly justified move request for an article about a location that is the most internationally recognized and the most likely to be sought after when users type in "Dover". As Dover4872 does not appear to have either contributed to the article or talk page in advance of raising this proposal, the similarity to the five UK locations you raised DAB proposals for in a hasty five minute spree (log) is striking, though if you can point to advance discussions and contributions you made to these all articles in preparation, I would be happy not to consider them spontaneous "drive-by" proposals made to prove a point to support a village pump discussion. Fæ (talk) 18:00, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
      • They were made simultaneously when the village pump discussion seemed to garner little notice, and the few that did comment pointed towards the specific articles talk pages. Away I went. Any location in Ontario that led to a British place that I've never once heard of, I nominated. Every place that I felt there were several notable cases of, including the British place, I also nominated. One or two over-board nominations may have slipped in there (York, perhaps, and Sydenham), but overall the purpose is a justified balancing of regional prevalence. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 18:14, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
        • Mass move requests are not intended to be used arbitrarily, persisting in doing so goes against the behavioural guidance of WP:Disruptive editing. Though this requested move was not created by you, possibly by accident of timing, it seems to have become part of the same group of requests made on weak grounds for established high visibility articles on UK cities and towns. This pattern of requests should be taken into account when closing due to potential issues such as attracting comments from editors going from one move request to others in the same group (my opinion being one example). Please note that in accordance with WP:RMCI, as this move request has become controversial, the discussion should closed by an administrator. Further patterns of arbitrary move requests similar to this one are likely to be seen as deliberate disruptive editing. Fæ (talk) 21:45, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

CONSENSUS

The seven day are up. The results appear to be:

• Support: 10
• Oppose: 17

Based on additional comments not preceded by a bold !vote term, the consensus appears to be further strengthened in favour of 'oppose'.

The consensus would therefore appear to be that Dover, in England has primacy by consensus. An admin will be along shortly to formally evaluate and close this debate.--Kudpung (talk) 22:49, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

It's not a vote. An admin will weigh in the arguments presented by both sides and come to a judgement. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 01:04, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I still don't think there is any consensus for the move request, as 17-10 is not that great of a majority. In addition, we seem to be split on national lines on this issue, which applies to more than just this article. Dough4872 01:21, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Please do not make WP:ADHOM arguments based on your personal speculation as to the nationality and unstated motivations of other contributors. Fæ (talk) 04:30, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I've made a request at WP:AN for an uninvolved admin to close this RM. Mjroots2 (talk) 06:13, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Name of article (again)

A proposal to align the category name with the article name has prompted some editors to reopen last October's discussion. The discussion on the category is at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2011_August_23#Category:Town_of_Dover. --Mhockey (talk) 18:31, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Dover-Calais ferry

Dover Calais ferry is currently a redirect to P&O Ferries#Dover – Calais. As there are also other companies operating ferries on this route I don't think the current target is appropriate. You are invited to the discussion at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2013 September 28#Dover Calais ferry regarding what would be better. Thryduulf (talk) 14:40, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

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The name of Dover Cliffs

The article notes that the name, Dover, was in use by the time of Shakespeare but ignores the origin of the name from people who worked catching pigeons and collecting eggs on the dover cliffs. Surely there must be some record of this historically important economic activity. - Fartherred (talk) 02:53, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

It is known that pigeons originally nested on cliffs as documented at this Washington Department of Fish & Wildlife site. They were a source of food in antiquity. The word, dove, in English is older than the 13th century. So dovers must have worked on the dover cliffs long before Shakespeare.

It seems unlikely that the only surviving evidence of ancient wild dove catching is the dovecots that were attached to medieval castles and the name, Dover, for the cliffs where doves were caught to stock the dovecots. Still the dover cliffs are the likely initial source of doves for the medieval British islands. The Romans who brought the dovecot technology probably did not bring sufficient doves to stock the local industry. Can anyone find a reference for ancient wild dove catching? - Fartherred (talk) 19:18, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Dover/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Perhaps - now that I have done some considerable work on the article, it could be re-assessed? Peter Shearan (talk) 15:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC) To move up to GA level, it will need to be nominated at Wikipedia:Good article nominations. Although, there's still a lot of expansion and sourcing needed before it's ready for that. Epbr123 (talk) 16:07, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 16:07, 12 February 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 13:46, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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flag and coat of arms

http://www.ngw.nl/heraldrywiki/index.php?title=Dover_(England)

flag is same with Dover's Police, but you remove the Dover Police Crest, you zoom in on it, you simply take the Dover Crest, and you put it where the police Crest was, some others use a very white alternative flag with the Crest and some colored border-lines up and down only — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:4114:C800:2871:4943:BCD5:341C (talk) 01:04, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

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Picture before the end of the 'Economy' section needs a caption

In my opinion, the picture before the end of the 'Economy' section in the article needs a caption as in my opinion it looks strange without one.

Proudzynski bombing 1914

Should a mention of this be included in the article? The link [1] might help.SovalValtos (talk) 02:29, 2 December 2022 (UTC)