Talk:Dark Eyes (Russian song)

I will be watching this page.

Untitled

What about Django Rheinart ? Do you know him ? D you know his version ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.228.73.44 (talk) 13:19, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

For the English translation of the this song, I got the lyrics from the linked site, Russian Music on the Net which has the following question and answer in its FAQ:
Q: Can I use the lyrics of any of those songs? Who do I contact for that?
A: All Russian lyrics are copyrighted to their authors. You'd have to contact the band to get their permissions. You can usually do that from their official site.
For English translations: you can use without problem any of mines (katya's) if you include a link back to this site. For translations that aren't mine, contact the translator to ask his/her permission first.
Maaya まあや 01:37, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

The original Russian lyrics of this song are in the public domain: author Yevgeniy Pavlovich Grebyonka (1812-1848) died more than 70 years ago. Chaliapin's version, however, is apparently not yet in the public domain: Chaliapin died in 1938, therefore the 70 years post mortem auctoris required by copyright law haven't passed yet - it will be PD in 2009. Gestumblindi 21:05, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

- Edited the year of the Tielman Brothers' version to the correct year 1960. Also added for completions' sake that their version was the first (European) rock and roll version of it. Later to become a staple in European continental instro rock and roll.Jojobaplant (talk) 19:23, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

translation

Frightful - isn't the Russian closer to "passionate"? Anyone with insight let me know, otherwise I'll change it at some point. Frikle 01:37, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

You might find this blog post interesting:

http://rosekelleher.wordpress.com/2013/02/16/dark-eyes/

I don't mean to be rude, but both the "Loose English interpretation" of the original poem, and the metrical version, are so different from the original that I think they're misleading, to the point of doing a disservice to Hrebinka.

Rosekelleher (talk) 18:05, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

Two weeks ago, I proposed at Talk:Dark Eyes (film) to move this article formerly called Dark Eyes to its present location Dark Eyes (film) and to rename Dark Eyes (song) to Dark Eyes. There were no comments, so I proceeded and moved the film article; please move Dark Eyes (song) to Dark Eyes to finish the change. Gestumblindi 18:05, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem has been solved by a different means; Dark Eyes now redirects to the disambiguation page Dark Eye. --Stemonitis 13:57, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

External Link and Source

"Russian Music on the Net", from which the translation was supposedly taken, leads to a "Page not found error". The link should be removed and possibly replaced if the site doesn't reappear. 85.180.127.116 (talk) 23:21, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Links have been fixed. The site's structure was changed, breaking links to specific pages. Kanhef (talk) 21:38, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

About song's language

The words "Очи чёрные" are in Russian language, not Ukrainian (in that language would be "Очі чорні", I'll correct this in the article), and I doubt if this should be considered an Ukrainian or Russian romance; even if the author was Ukrainian, I personally don't know any Ukrainian version of his poem). --PabloAr (talk) 18:50, 20 November 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by PabloAr (talk • contribs) 18:10, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

The original publication by Hrebinka was in Russian, AFAIK (he worked in both languages). Викидим (talk) 04:32, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Original Melody

The information in the third paragraph is confusing and even obsolete: IMSLP (see footnote 3) has Hermanns „Hommage-Valse, Op.21“ and dates it with reference to „Hofmeister: Musikalisch-literarischer Monatsbericht“ back to 1879. This should be sufficient to explain the origin of the melody. „Rêverie russe“ is another melody. Lahmen Ritter (talk) 20:12, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

And how does the story about it being written in Cuba fit in? 23.93.192.5 (talk) 07:12, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

The Cuban story is a joke by the Cuban artist at best. We should just remove it. See the discussion below. Викидим (talk) 06:08, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

You would have to provide a reliable source that confirms it was a joke.--Aristophile (talk) 11:43, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Your statement is not correct. Usually truly ridiculous statements on any subject go unrepudiated, due to the simple fact that nobody cares about jokes or embellishments of someone's achievements. That's why we have a WP:FRINGE guideline: idea that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight in an article about a mainstream idea. All written pieces on the subject say "Hermann", one Cuban musician says "no, it was me as a 12 year old" in an interview. This is clearly WP:UNDUE: Views held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views (such as the flat Earth). In this particular case, the only person on the record suggesting Garay as an author is Garay himself, clearly a tiny minority. So, while the statement might (or might not) be OK in the article about Garay himself, it is definitely out of place here. Викидим (talk) 20:03, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Transliteration

One of the transliterations is kinda crazy for an English wikipedia page. Many of us can read Cyrillic script - but how many of us know (what is essentially) the Czech alphabet! Virtually no one... this is not a commonly used Latin transliteration in the English speaking world.... 86.152.238.78 (talk) 01:36, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Ukrainian Song

How can it be a "Russian Song" when a Ukrainian wrote it? 67.70.57.107 (talk) 18:44, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Because Yevhen Hrebinka published it in Russian in a Russian newspaper. See also the comment above, #About song's language. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 23:44, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Because Ukraine did not exist until 1917. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:C830:CAB0:CEAF:6F07:6680:18D1 (talk) 09:15, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Sindo Garay

Sindo Garay's claims should be taken with more than a grain of salt:

• did any Russian opera company really tour Cuba in the 19th century?
• if the publication date of the song (1884) in our article is correct, Garay should have been younger than 17 at the time of writing for the song to come back to Russia and be published.

Early publication reference the Op. 21 as a source of music. The statement in the documentary is essentially a WP:PRIMARY source, so WP:EXTRAORDINARY needs to be applied here, IMHO. Викидим (talk) 07:11, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Seeing no objections for more than two weeks, removing the extraordinary claim without reliable sourcing. Викидим (talk) 21:07, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4n0zHc4Qjc here's Garay speaking about it himself on film.--Aristophile (talk) 22:58, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

I do not see how a one man's statement about himself, at a very old age, in an interview, can be considered an "exceptional source" required by WP:EXTRAORDINARY. After all, the Garay's claim contradicts all written sources and common sense: see above - which Russian opera company could have visited Cuba before 1884? at the time there were no notable private operas in Russia - the Private Opera was set up by Mamontov only in 1885. Викидим (talk) 23:05, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

WP:OR, and Garay is not an average man, but one of the most iconic Cuban musicians. This has sufficient weight.--Aristophile (talk) 00:38, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

I do not understand you referring to WP:OR: it clearly states that interviews are WP:PRIMARY sources and A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source. The material provided in this interview can be at most summarized along the lines "In an interview with Rebeca Chávez in 2010 Sindo Garay claimed that he wrote the music that was carried back to Russia in the early to mid-1890s by an unnamed Russian opera company<ref to interview> (the song was first published in 1884<ref to Fuld's book>)". Are you OK to change the text as suggested? Викидим (talk) 01:11, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

All our suspicions to the contrary would be OR, unless documented elsewhere. I reworded the para in a reasonable way.--Aristophile (talk) 14:10, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

WP:OR explicitly relates to the articles only ("Articles must not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material", the emphasis is mine). Common-sense arguments on talk pages are quite OK, and this is how we separate reliable sources from not-so-reliable (that should not be used in encyclopedia). In this case, the writing is very much on the wall: the Valse Hommage can be found on Youtube, and it does not take a musician to recognize the melody. The waltz was published in 1879, when Garay was just 12. So at best Garay had joked, and the interviewer was clueless enough to publish the joke. Our rules do not require us to be equally clueless, so we can either use the already mentioned WP:EXTRAORDINARY (a person boasting about himself is definitely not a great source) or an equally blunt WP:FRINGE:(Statements about the truth of a theory must be based upon independent reliable sources, emphasis is mine, statement of Garay about himself is not independent by any means). In either case, the text about Garay should be removed from this article to maintain WP:DUE: no texts on the subject of this article mention Garay at all. Викидим (talk) 01:59, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Nothing fringe here. What you have is WP:IDONTLIKEIT, plain and simple.--Aristophile (talk) 22:30, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Lute88: Your statement is not correct. I have provided clear arguments for removal of the text. For convenience, here they are again:

1. Except for Garay himself, nobody even mentions his authorship.
2. All written sources point to Hermann.
3. Due to #1 and #2, the claim of Garay's authorship is truly extraordinary.
4. The melody of the Dark Eyes is unmistakable the same as in Hermann's Op. 21.
5. Op. 21 was published in 1879.
6. Garay was born in 1867. He must have been under 12 when he allegedly composed the melody. He makes no mention of him being that young in his interview.
7. #4, #5, #6 make Garay's statement look highly unreliable.
8. WP:EXTRAORDINARY requires exceptional sources for the oversized claims (Surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources is considered a red flag).
9. #3, #7, #8 show a clear violation of WP:EXTRAORDINARY
10. WP:FRINGE declares that for the idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views ... to be discussed in an article about a mainstream idea, independent reliable sources must discuss the relationship of the two as a serious and substantial matter.
11. Here we have a mainstream article with a fringe claim about authorship that has no independent confirmation. Hence, the violation of WP:UNDUE.

Instead of accusing me of disliking something (and, for the record, I have no emotional attachment here. Who and why can I dislike here? I write articles on subjects from magnetism to Bible to navigation on German rivers), please let me know where you disagree with my reasoning as described in the items 1 to 11 above. Викидим (talk) 00:34, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I moved all the relevant parts on the song's composition to its own section. The lede should only give who are commonly accepted to be the authors, i.e. Yevhen Hrebinka and Florian Hermann. An unverified and disputed claim should not be given in the lede, but it may be given in the composition section (whether this particular claim should be removed entirely can be further discussed here). Hzh (talk) 12:09, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I do not see how a primary source (Garay's interview) can clear the threshold of WP:EXTRAORDINARY. In the interviews of very old people a lot of "interesting" facts pop up, generally ignored by serious publications, nobody even bothers to check. Unless there is a clear third-party affirmation (not interview!) that explains the age and other issues outlined by me above, I think that we should dismiss Garay's words altogether. Викидим (talk) 20:57, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I should say that while I was looking into it, I did find a few places that mention Garay's claim, e.g. [1] although it refers back to same interview. I also did see one reference to "Ojos negros" in a book on Garay (but I haven't been able to find it again, it could just be a repeat of the claim), so there are possible non-primary sources. I take no position on this, so I'll leave it to others to reach a consensus. Hzh (talk) 10:37, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! I have removed the word "may" from the lead: the second printing of "Dark eyes" music (printed no later than 1897) explicitly credits Hermann (Fuld 2000, p. 417) --Викидим (talk) 17:46, 9 October 2023 (UTC)