Talk:Counties Manukau (National Provincial Championship)

removal of all the info I uploaded

All the info I uploaded is a historical break down of the team's performances over the years that includes players and team scores, so that people who search wiki can see some basic history about a team based in Pukekohe New Zealand.

Seriously why remove it all? its unreal the power trips some people go on, on this website to "be right" about removing helpful and factual historical data. PukeHoopster81 (talk) 10:49, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi PukeHoopster81, all this information is much better suited to the Counties Manukau Rugby Football Union page. This article is specifically for the NPC side (2006 onwards just for NPC competitions). Feel free to merge your additions to this page across to the main article. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 10:53, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

You clearly have no historical interaction or understanding with the term "NPC" for new zealand rugby. The NPC has competitions title since 1976 when Bay Of Plenty first lifted the cup. Over the years its title has changed due to sponsorship and the addition and removal of the 2nd and 3rd divisions now known as the meads and lahore cups.

the 2006 situation your speaking of, was name and format change only. I will be readding for a second time my information which is factual. do you live in the area or New Zealand for that matter? its cleary obvious you dont and before removing a massive amount of data, you might want to read up on the actual history of the competition. PukeHoopster81 (talk) 11:15, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

also the honours section that you have decided to re add is covered in the data I have uploaded and it will be removed / joined whatever the correct term is to the data I sourced, which I had already done.

your argument as such about 2006 doesn't include the full history of the NPC, its a only a portion. Every single rugby union still operating in New Zealand knows this history. before 1976 9-12 matches a year were orgainsed between unions and the ranfurly shield matches were also had.

In terms of the indiviual player data that also aids in getting wider knowledge of this team, your idea of "only 2006 onward" is still out the window if you delete it all, because it also contains data after the date your using. PukeHoopster81 (talk) 11:21, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm also in talks with the union to get previous squad details, the 2024 squad details and their match schedule. Details will be uploaded in the next few weeks. From here the 2023 squad will be retitled and moved to a previous team title. PukeHoopster81 (talk) 11:25, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

None of this changes from the fact that it's been agreed that these team articles are for basic information and current squads, whereas the union articles are for more detailed information. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 12:08, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

See Tasman Rugby Union for example. The majority that you have uploaded here is similar to what's added on the main article for that page, whereas the Tasman page is kept for less detailed/precise information and current squads. This was what was agreed upon when the articles were split a few years ago between other NZ rugby editors. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 12:12, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Tasman is a different setup to counties, it was a team that was put together after two teams folded in the early 2000's when the NZRFU was looking to scale back. They tried and failed this idea with the central vikings. It doesn't have the history that Counties has, again your using the idea that the "NPC" began in 2006, it factually did not.

YOu speak of some folklore agreement some editor's made, that has nothing to do with with the factual history of the NPC it self or when it started, so the history of before 2006 where does it belong? because the same team your attempting to remove the history from still existed and still played in the same competition, with a different title name. In fact the "2006" model you keep going back to, has also been replaced twice in fact. Again your not even aware of the compeition itself.

The information that you keep "reinstating that you only uploaded" is incomplete. The Super Rugby section that add you is not complete and several of those players didn't make their super rugby start through counties, they made their start through another team, then moved to Counties. PukeHoopster81 (talk) 20:11, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Like I keep editing it - the NPC with its full history started in 1976. The version that a group of people keep attempting to move it to, 2006 in whatever theory they have, its only a partial history.

The competition has gone through changes, brand name sponsor, title format and has also done this since 2006, so as it stands the NPC factually started in 1976. the 2006 version you seem to think is the start, is not. The competition has been changed twice since 2006 also....so again makes no sense for 2006 to be a starting point for history or informative situations. PukeHoopster81 (talk) 20:24, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

How many topics does one need to add.

The New Zealand National Prov Championship started in 1976, as many sports over the years its seen changes.

it turned pro in 1996, after the 95 world cup like ever other country. The so called 2006 "version" that people uneducatedly refer to has actually been amended and changed twice. 2006 is not the "birth" or the start of a "pro" version of the league.

It did however remove promotion and relegation from the old Div III competition and seperated teams that were viable for the championship going forward. The setup, in terms of playoff rugby, or finals has been changed many times. What hasn't changed is the fact it was started in 1976 so every team that plays in, carries the full history. Counties wasn't formed or established in 2006, nor was it established in 1996 when rugby in NZ went pro. The Manukau part was added to cover the area at the time to entice more sponsporship and encompass the area, the union was to cover. People refering to "Tasman" in previous posts don't have the understanding that much like the failed central viking bid, the union at a point in time attemped to lose some teams or join teams. Tasman was very successful, again the vikings failed. PukeHoopster81 (talk) 21:24, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Also if your questioning why am I adding "player info from the 1950s" then on the side bar you should remove the most points and the most tries, because as you wrong suggest - these stats are from player that had been retired more than 10 years from your made up idea of the "pro" version that started in 2006.

It would seem best that perhaps leave the page to editors that actually have contact with the union, live in the area, and actually have an understanding of how the team is made up.

if you really want to get into it, the NPC title was not even used at some points between 2006-2024, it was named with a title sponsor as a "Cup" not a championship.

The championship title with its orginal trophy was not reinstated till around 2019. PukeHoopster81 (talk) 21:38, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Wrong information

The information currently displayed on this page is wrong, the NPC as its known did not start in 2006 and anyone reading this page should search other internet sources for information.

The teams highest points scorer and top try scorer did not play in or after 2006 and were retired more than 10 years before such idea of this team starting in 2006 happened.

The history of 100+ games for the union will also not exist on this page as since 2006, no player that began their career then has ever played 100+ games. PukeHoopster81 (talk) 22:05, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Alan Dawson has never played for the team from 2006 onward. PukeHoopster81 (talk) 22:19, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Discussion reset: Article scope

The discussion above has gotten so fragmented that this administrator would like to reset it and get it focused. In particular, it seems there is some disagreement about the scope of the article.

Which Counties Manukau teams are in scope for this article?

• All teams (in which case the title needs revisited)
• Teams only since the 1976 formation of the (first) NPC
• Teams since 1976 only if they played in the top division of the NPC (i.e., non-relegated)
• Teams only since professionalization in 1996
• Teams only since the second iteration of the NPC formed in 2006

IMO, discussion will go smoother if this is agreed on as a starting point. Pinging @PukeHoopster91:, @Rugbyfan22: and @PeeJay: based on their involvement in edits and/or discussion here. —C.Fred (talk) 22:12, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

If the article doesn't contain a full history of the team ie since its operational start point of 1955. Your opening it up to having 3 or 4 seperate pages that need to linked and then if you decide to omit the team being in different divisions or championships - how many more pages do you want?

A single page with a historical start of 1995 onward. The data has already been provided, I am sourcing links to further clarify this data, as eariler put there is a rugby statiscal website that wikipedia wouldn't allow me to use a a reference. I was give notice of another reference source 4 days ago which I'm exploring. given the nature of such statiscal data - I reached out to the union in speak to get an understand if said stats are correct. In time (as I believe wiki is a live thing) stats will be added and reference as per wiki require.

The NZRFU which is the governing body went pro in 96, correct, the NPC has been changed many times since its inception of 76, 2006, 2009, 2012 and even again midly in 2020 with COVID19 being the issue.

during this time, division titles have changed and so have their status, in 2006 no relegation was present, in 2008 it was. in 2012 it changed again into a conference system rather than prom / relegation, in 2022 it went back to promo / relegation. During Covid Counties didn't even compete due to the area being in lockdown.

How much more knowledge do you actually need to see? There are better things to spend my personal time on and I don't need to be slurred at (I was labelled obtuse by a user) for trying to add data to said page. PukeHoopster81 (talk) 22:29, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The specific format of the competition is not at issue. The reason we use 2006 as the dividing point is because that's when the Heartland Championship was created and the old NPC ceased to exist. For someone who's so willing to criticise others for not knowing history, I'd have thought this would be pretty obvious to you. – PeeJay 22:49, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Who is this "we" you speak of? are you connected to the CMRFU or the NZRFU? PukeHoopster81 (talk) 22:54, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Are you being intentionally obtuse, or is this just your everyday attitude? "We" obviously refers to us editors of Wikipedia. – PeeJay 22:59, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The "We" you suggest doesn't "obviously" refer to anyone, department, or situation. Its why it was asked as a question. You can refrain in future from labelling me (since you have decided what your saying isn't a slur) toward me. It is totally uncalled for and not needed.

You are correct in that the heartland championship was either designed / created / made in effect in 2006 born out of the bottom end of the old second divsion and the third division. This team in speak is not part of that competition and never has been either. PukeHoopster81 (talk) 00:14, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

And that is irrelevant because the creation of the Heartland Championship (an amateur competition) and the reorganisation of the NPC (a pro/semi-pro competition) is the reason why 2006 was chosen as the cutoff point. Glad we finally got there! – PeeJay 00:30, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Choosen by whom exactly? the NZRFU the governing body that runs the competition? or some suggested folklore group you've described several times as "we" the editors? PukeHoopster81 (talk) 00:42, 2 July 2024 (UTC)