Talk:Code Noir

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 5 October 2021 and 13 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Enryonokatamarikun. Peer reviewers: Sbonesan.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 17:56, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

History of Quebec

Why is this in Category:Quebec history ? --Ann O'nyme 11:25, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

I was wondering the same, why? User:Jim Bart 8-2-06 3:40 PM

Long time with no reply, but because Quebec was a colony of France the Code Noir was also in effect there. Pinkville (talk) 01:29, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure? Check with fr:Code_noir#Territoires_d'application

Sources

Is it appropriate to have the full text in this article, especially the French version? Surely that's what wikisource exists for? --Benwilson528 11:48, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

The full text is a book-sized document. There is only a very short and partial synopsis here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.224.103.123 (talk) 08:50, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Requests for more info

When did the Code Noir stop being in force? I think it would be a useful addition to the topic

Wasn't this decree practically ignored? Something about its effectiveness should be included.

- - -

What was ignored were many of the articles giving some protection to slaves. The Code still served as the legal justification for slavery in French territory.

Slavery was not definitively outlawed in France and French possessions until 1848, although it had ceased to exist in most places much earlier. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.224.103.123 (talk) 08:53, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Might be you should add some such sentence. As reference, there is this text page that stand that only 10 out of 60 articles were applied as European principle based on roman law would be useless out of Europe according to its author. gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k57905479/f223.image

But you might also take some information from the french page which is more complete. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.193.106.208 (talk) 22:51, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

end?

when did this code cease? Kingturtle (talk) 16:45, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Briefly between 1794 (slavery abolished) and 1802 (slavery reinstated) and definitely in 1848 (slavery abolished again),though moderated by case laws less unfavorable to the slave between 1815 and 1848. 78.242.229.238 (talk) 04:24, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Code N/noir

The normal form of the work's title is "Code noir", as with "Code civil". That is how it is spelt at the beginning of this article as well as throughout WP:fr "Code noir". Would anyone object to changing to Code noir in the title of this article and throughout? Wikiain (talk) 23:28, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

It should be standardized in English Wikipedia, that I agree with. However, I'm not sure which way it should be. Google's Ngram Viewer up to 2008 gives "Code Noir" as the most common occurrence in English, particularly over the past century. Ngram viewer for Code Noir That seems to be the treatment in the U.S. French has a somewhat different handling of capitalization at times from what I recall. This one is tricky since the term is used in both languages for the same thing. I would likely leave both words capitalized in English, and the second lower case in French. Red Harvest (talk) 08:21, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for this. Non-capitalisation of the second word would be normal in French: e.g. "Code civil" (my specialised knowledge but also borne out by Ngram). However, when your Ngram seach is done for French, "Code Noir" and "Code noir" are found to be trending equally. I guess that this has to do with the politics of "N/oir": in the same period, searching in French, "les Noirs" suddenly takes over from "les noirs" around 1940. In this light, I'm not so uncomfortable with the article as it is. However, WP:fr has "Code noir" throughout and, while it is not a source, I'm inclined to take it as advice not to depart from normal French practice. Wikiain (talk) 23:20, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

The name of a group of people normally isn't capitalized in French. One writes "noirs",not "Noirs", "français",not "Français." 78.242.229.238 (talk) 04:31, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Subtitle

Eamnonn: thank you for adding and translating a subtitle. But I have removed it, because it appears to be a publisher's book title of 1735 - not the title of the document of 1685, which is given in that book as "Edit du Roi, touchant la Police des Isles de l'Amerique Françoise" (Royal edict, concerning governance of the islands of French America)? Yet that too may not be accurate. André Castaldo, Codes Noirs (Paris, Dalloz, 2006), gives "édit du Roi, sur les esclaves des Îles de l'Amérique" (Royal edict, concerning slaves in the islands of America). The 1723 title given there is different again. Wikiain (talk) 02:14, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

NPOV

This article is absolutely not written in a NPOV and desperately needs it. The way it is talking about this slave code being a great thing for slaves, even if it was an improvement over other conditions at the time, is creepy and apologistic. I'm flagging it for corrections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.177.143.15 (talk) 01:07, July 21, 2015‎

I don't see see a problem with this article. It has been more than 3 weeks (nearly 4) with no input on this complaint of NPOV. Barring any objections or concrete suggestions from the IP or anyone else I will unflag this article. Meters (talk) 02:18, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

done Meters (talk) 03:41, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

For information only: The « Code Noir » is a controversial topic: some people want to forbid to see positive parts in the Code noir as they want it to be definitely seen as a monstruous/bad thing. And Jean-François Niort has just been controverted to intent to study the code noir. There were two articles on this topic in Le Monde today:

• Le « Code Noir » est bien une monstruosité ( Louis Sala-Molins (Philosophe et historien) )
• Les travaux sur le Code noir ne doivent pas se plier aux dogmes ( fr:Jean-Louis Harouel, (université Panthéon-Paris-II), Jacky Dahomay, et Marcel Dorigny, (université Paris-VIII) )

To summarize, those articles says that

• In may 2015, Jean-François Niort ask the présidence de la République that Code Noir be qualified as a « monstruosité juridique » and « crime contre l’humanité » by law
• Jean-François Niort has been criticized as « révisionniste et négationniste » for its two last books which see some not bad points in it
• Some people think that MIR France would like to believe that Code noir history has been frozen for ever by philosophe Louis Sala Molins in its 1987 book, «Le Code noir ou le calvaire de Canaan.»
• As such MIR France religion is to believe the Louis Sala Molins book, and so to criticize Jean-François Niort one.
• They consider Louis Sala Molins book is good based on the Robert Badinter opinion published in june 1987 in Le Nouvel Observateur. Nonetheless, Robert Badinter also considered the author, was dominated by passion and did not take into account « l’intensité et les difficultés du combat mené par l’abbé Grégoire, Condorcet, Brissot et leurs compagnons pour la libération des Noirs ».

1738

What's about the 1738 declaration which stand that many people came to France, and which try to forbid to give freedom to those people, and which define rules to make them come back to those islands? (see gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65314428/f469.image ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.193.106.208 (talk) 23:26, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Code Noir. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070304190252/http://www.liceolocarno.ch:80/Liceo_di_Locarno/materie/biologia/martinica/code_noir.html to http://www.liceolocarno.ch/Liceo_di_Locarno/materie/biologia/martinica/code_noir.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 09:18, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Citations in Origin and In Pop Culture sections

There should be a citation for the information under the sections "Origin" and "In Pop Culture." NolanH (talk) 01:08, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Code Noir. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150619233008/https://directory.vancouver.wsu.edu/sites/directory.vancouver.wsu.edu/files/inserted_files/webintern02/code%20noir.pdf to https://directory.vancouver.wsu.edu/sites/directory.vancouver.wsu.edu/files/inserted_files/webintern02/code%20noir.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 04:45, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

This is a mess

This article badly needs attention, preferably from a native Engslish peaker. There is so much uncited/unencocylopedic content, and content that is just straight up gramatically incorrect and nonsensical. Ya hemos pasao (talk) 10:23, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Aliens link

In the line: At this time, there were still at least two common law status applicable in Martinique : French status, la Coutume de Paris, and aliens one.

Coutume de Paris is linked to something that seems in context, kind of, but aliens links to a grape. Surely some mistake? 92.26.182.215 (talk) 22:28, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Adding translations and sources from French wiki page on Code noir

Dear all, I am attempting to bring over some of the very good legal antecedent/history discussions from the French wiki page. I only envision replacing redundant and/or completely unsubstantiated parts of the English page with translations and sources from the French version. I will not be reorganizing the page, just fleshing it out and adding citations and sources where I can. Thanks. Enryonokatamarikun (talk) 22:36, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Dear everyone, I have added a few sections that I have translated and edited from the French wiki page of Code noir. In doing so I have cut some redundant content and edited the rest for tone and citeable statements. Further, I added a number of good (sometimes slightly outdated, but hey, historical info) sources and tried to merge some choice parts of the English and French page bibliographies. For those interested in improving the English Code noir, I would really suggest translating (if it is within your capabilities) more sections of the French version as it is very well written and I have yet to find unsubstantiated information in it. I would be particularly interested in seeing the French section covering the legal history of post-First revolution Code noir translated and edited in here. There are other excellent sections over there that are slipping my mind currently. Many thanks to the very detail-oriented wikipedians Globu, Jfniort, Ambre Troizat,Jonathan.renoult, Pfvh, and Hippo75 (undoubtedly there are others I'm missing) whose collective work I had the pleasure of translating. Enryonokatamarikun (talk) 05:44, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Hello all, I have continued to translate sections of and find refs for the French wiki (written by Code Noir scholar JF Niort at the University of the French Antilles) and have incorporated them into the English Wikia. I'm sure there are little errors here and there but I am pretty confidant in the work after having spent a year off and on reading the sources and all. The one thing that I feel needs a much greater development is the antisemitic aspect of the Code. It goes pretty unremarked by most top-notch scholars but all evidence suggests that it was a main concern for the writers of the original Martinican Code who were attempting to satisfy Jesuit demands to expel Antillean Jews since more than a decade before the Code. Thank you all. TLDR I added many helpful sections and removed nothing. Enryonokatamarikun (talk) 05:22, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Put back the Code Noir poster /image of the young black man with the sadistic contraptions forced on to his face.

Why was the aforesaid imaged taken off.. French PR? 2A00:23C7:2B1F:4801:4855:D097:9082:F72B (talk) 22:29, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Next time please provide a diff of the edit, or at least a link to the file in question. I can find no such image having been removed. There was an image replaced by user:Crawdad Blues four months ago [1] because the page in the image is already used elsewhere the article. I'm assuming that is the image the IP is concerned about, even though I see no "sadistic contraptions forced on to his face" and the image was actually added rather than being removed. Meters (talk) 00:14, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, unless my reading of the history is mistaken, the article never contained an image of any human being at all until I added a photo of the 1743 edition of Code noir a few months ago. That edition, unlike the 1742 edition, does have a small image of the head and shoulders of a black man on the title page. It is still in the article today, although as User:Meters says, there is no "sadistic contraption" on his face, nor is there any image with such a contraption in the Code noir category in the Commons. The IP is obviously confused, but whatever they saw and wherever they saw it, it was evidently not here. Crawdad Blues (talk) 13:23, 14 February 2024 (UTC)