Talk:Carroll Baker/GA3

GA Review

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Reviewer: JohnWickTwo (talk · contribs) 22:56, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Starting assessment of article. JohnWickTwo (talk) 22:56, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

• Lead section

Appears adequate subject to possible changes during assessment.

• 1 Early life

No proof of birth name seems odd. You appear to be saying that there is no birth certificate, and that there are no elementary school or high school records of her birth name? She did have a passport to go to Italy and it would be interesting to know what it said for her name, or if she went through a formal name change at some time. This should be confirmed one way or the other in the article. Some mention should be made in this section of her eventual conversion to Judaism later in her life for purposes of comparison.

• 2 Career
• 2.1 1952–1957: Early work and critical success

The Baby Doll material is key in this section. The reference to her role as "sexually repressed" in the lead section appears different from calling her a "sensuous teenage bride" in this section though these should be consistent. "Repressed" seems the more common one in the reviews I have seen. The relation to Tennessee Williams is notable as is the later mention of her role as Anna Christie by Eugene O'Neill later in the article, though without discussion. The Anna Christie role should receive more discussion and it would be useful to know what the reviews were like, when it opened, how long it ran. Williams and O'Neill are foremost dramatists in the 20th century, and the tie-in comparison to Greta Garbo who did the film version of Anna is implied here as being of possible interest to some readers.

• 2.2 1958–1963: Contract battle

Possibly consider calling the section "Contract disputes" or "Conflicting studio control" to avoid the word 'battle', which will come up in the next section dealing with the legal battles she undertook with the studio which were yet to take place.

• 2.3 1964–1966: Sex symbol roles

Levine and the issue of the exploitation of her appeal in a negative way seems to be the subtext of this section. Did Levine exploit her sex appeal for profit? This was a pre-feminist issue which might deserve some attention. Is it known what Baker's positions on feminism and women's rights were, and did she ever make a strong case the one way or the other? Regarding the law suits paragraph which ends the section, is anything known about who put her up to filing the law suits, and did she know that she was shooting her career in the leg at that time by souring relations with American studios on a long-term basis. Did she have a penchant for legal battles or was it simply a contentious nature in her?

• 2.4 1967–1975: European career and giallo films

Many prefer to use the plain language version here and just call them "Italian thrillers" with a link to the genre type. It might be interesting that this type of profit-oriented film making has some similarity to Spaghetti westerns, though care should be taken not to get into original research if there are any comparisons you might make between these genres of Italian films.

• 2.5 1976–1987: Return to American films; theater

Previous note discussion above on Anna Christie role. How many times did she do scripts y Williams and O'Neill in her life? Did she ever do anything by Arthur Miller? Those would likely be the strong theatre names of the 20th century and might be of interest to those readers of this article who would like to read her career as being the career of a "serious actress".

• 2.6 1988–2003: Later roles and retirement

Your reference to "Baker played a villainess" in Kindergarten seems a bit over-stated for a comedy and the link to the film prefers to call her role that of an over-bearing mother, which seems preferable for a comedy. The 2006 DVD release of Baby Doll may have had a voice-over of her narrating a film commentary, and this should be checked. What did she say in her short interview which was included on that DVD; what did the film and role mean to her after so many decades since the film was originally released? Same question for her discussions with Rex Reed at the Williams commemoration, what did she say about him or about her role?

• 3 Writing

Adequate for content discussed.

• 4 Personal life

She is still living, in NYC, and note if there are any family contacts or friends left.

• 5 In popular culture

See above comments about Williams and O'Neill. When was the last production of Baby Doll in the theatre, do the new actresses playing the role ever mention Baker's contribution to the film? Otherwise, the section seems possibly super-added to this article since the Arbus photos can be mentioned in the section dealing with Baby Doll, and the Warhol item can be inserted in the 1975 section discussing their collaboration. If you move those two sentences as suggested here, then this section could be omitted.

• 6 Filmography

Adequate for content discussed.

• 7 Accolades

Adequately covered.

• 7.1 Awards

Adequately covered.

• 7.2 Nominations

Adequately covered.

• 7.3 Honors

Adequately covered.

@Drown Soda: That should get the assessment started and remember to update all the access dates for all the citations which use them after you check the links, as you did on your other article. JohnWickTwo (talk) 02:47, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

@JohnWickTwo: Hello again, and thanks so much for taking the time review these.

• I've been unable to find any evidence proving she was born as Carroll Baker or Karolina Piekaraski; the Piekarski rumor has circulated for some time and it has been alleged that she changed her name to Carroll Baker, which is the Anglicized version of the Polish name, but again, I've been unable to find documentation proving either/or. There is a photo of her passport here from the 1970s, but it simply lists her as Carroll Baker Garfein. She does not address her birth name in her autobiography either.

If there ever was an interview with close family members in the press then this would likely clear things up. Also, if she does say the family was from Continental Europe then the name "Baker" is not part of the lexicon in Poland, suggesting that the family name needed to be something different and European.

• Agreed over the term "battle"—it's harsh and "dispute" is far more appropriate. As far as the women's issues angle, Baker has not publicly disclosed her views on this; she simply made such statements as "Levine behaved as though he owned me," as cited in the article. I could try and incorporate some historical discussion of the dispute if I can find it, or possibly a general comment on contracts in the era and their effect on female actors during the era.

See my further comment below on this. It seems that she may have been influenced by someone to take the case forward which would cause her so much turmoil in her career even after she prevailed.

• I don't know if replacing the term giallo in the body of the article would necessarily be more informative; granted it is an Italian word, but it is frequently used among the film community and is used in English vernacular to designate a specific genre of film. If anything, I feel that leaving the original term linked may be more educational for those unfamiliar with the films. This is debatable though and just my inclination.

There is always something to be said for speaking plainly as well, and "Italian-thriller" can be linked to the FA for B-movie.

• In regard to theatre, Baker did perform on stage with some consistency throughout her career; as noted in the early work section, she began her career on Broadway and would go on to do theatre in spurts throughout her career, both in the U.S. and abroad. A list of her performances is included in the credits page. I've included some names for reference in relationship to the plays in the body of the article. I think her dramatic film credits combined with some of her stage work lend credence to Baker as a serious actress; if nothing else, her start performing Tennessee Williams gives her footing in both "serious" (i.e. dramatic works/works by respected writers and/or filmmakers) and "less serious" (i.e. B-movies, horror films, etc.) categories.

Any ties to Williams are important to her "serious" reception as an actor. Any review you can find of her Anna Christie role would be interesting to hear about.

• It has been awhile since I've watched the 2006 DVD, but I do recall Baker commenting on the drama surrounding the film's release when the cardinal of St. Patrick's Cathedral publicly denounced the film; I also remember her saying that the hoopla caught her completely off guard. The interview on that DVD release was brief from my recollection. I do own it, but don't have it immediately with me—I can try and get this information at some point in the future, though what I recall of it, it did not provide much information that hasn't been stated by Baker and/or others elsewhere.

If this was the Criterion Collection DVD release, then there is usually a voice-over track where participants in the film are invited to "talk" through the film with their recollections. Who did the voice-overs for your DVD version? If you did not watch the film with this audio option enabled, then you could look up the voice-over names on the Criterion web-site for this film. There is a Criterion release for "Something Wild" and the article might look stronger if you had something on the current art-house aspect of "Something Wild".

• I have noted stage productions of Baby Doll (it had its theatrical debut in 2000), but comments on Baker's influence on the part don't seem to be floating around—she did epitomize the role though, as it became virtually synonymous with her name.

Good comments to include, and ties to Williams are nearly always to her credit.

Let me know if you have other comments or ideas; I've made edits addressing the above points. Again, much appreciated. --Drown Soda (talk) 22:23, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

@Drown Soda: That looks fairly good. There are some italic comments of mine that you will see interspersed with your responses above, mostly your answers have credence and you will just need to make final choices on the wording.

The entire reference list for the article needs to have all the very old access dates updated throughout, for example, this one "^ "Carroll Baker". St. Petersburg Times. January 23, 1957. Retrieved November 2, 2009", and many others. This also was in the Turner article (footnote #88), for example, "cite web|url=http://www.lanaturner.org/lana-turner-quotes |work=LanaTurner.org |archiveurl=https://web.archive.org/web/20121215193615/http://www.lanaturner.org/lana-turner-quotes |archivedate=December 15, 2012 |title=Lana Turner Quotes |deadurl=yes |df= ", which still needs to be taken care of. It still is unexpected that she decided knowingly to get into such high profile legal battles without knowing the consequences to her career beforehand; was it just for the money? Ping me when you are ready to continue the assessment. JohnWickTwo (talk) 01:32, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

@JohnWickTwo: Regarding your above comments: Baker's daughter is also a famous actress, but as far as I know, Baker's birth name has never been discussed by her. I have taken your consideration of the giallo term and it does prove very readable. The 2006 DVD release of Baby Doll was a Warner release and was unfortunately spare in regard to bonus material. Criterion did release Something Wild earlier this year with an audio interview with Baker from her home in New York, though most of the discussion in that regarding Baby Doll was of things that have been said elsewhere as well (the interview was more focused on Something Wild and also anecdotes about her life on film sets, interactions with Clark Gable, etc.) I was able to find a reference to a review of the Anna Christie production, which was directed by her then-husband; it was not well-reviewed, though I cannot find direct quotes about Baker's performance itself. --Drown Soda (talk) 05:29, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

@Drown Soda: All of the retrieval dates in the reference section need to be updated. It reflects poorly on both nominator and reviewer when some of the dates have not been updated since 2012. Once they are done, and I'll read through the entire reference section to verify, it should be possible to move forward. Many editors do not like to do references though its an unavoidable bottleneck. Here is only a partial list and there are many others which need to be updated. Five years is too long not to update these. JohnWickTwo (talk) 14:53, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Old reference retrieval dates need to be updated from start to finish in article:

a b c d e f "The Private Life and Times of Carroll Baker". Glamour Girls of the Silver Screen. Retrieved November 11, 2012.

Jump up to: a b c d e f Bubbeo, Daniel (June 20, 2011). "'Baby Doll' Carroll Baker in Huntington". Newsday. Retrieved November 10, 2012.

Jump up to: a b Carroll Baker on working with James Dean on YouTube. Media Funhouse (2000). Retrieved November 13, 2012.

Jump up to: a b "Carroll Baker Biography (1931–)". Film Reference. Retrieved February 2, 2015.

Jump up to: a b c "Carroll Baker – Broadway Theater Credits". Playbill Vault. Retrieved November 11, 2012.

^ Baker, Carroll (March 30, 2011). "Carroll Baker on Elizabeth Taylor". Saturday Night at the Movies (Interview). Retrieved February 2, 2012.

a b Hoberman, J. (December 17, 2012). "Catch Baby Doll with Carroll Baker and Eli Wallach". The Village Voice. Retrieved February 27, 2012.

Etc, etc, etc.

Also, the dead url links need to be removed or fixed. A previous editor appears to have used the archival backup format for some of the references which are listing as dead links when you look at the edit code in edit mode for this article, which needs to be updated. This also happened in the Lana Turner article where if you look at cite#88 in the edit code in edit mode you will see it listed as a dead link (it is listed in my comments from yesterday above in bold typeface.) These dead links should be fixed both here and in the Turner article. If you don't see these or don't know how to fix them just get back to me here by pinging my account for further details. Its straightforward to repair though I know it takes some time to read through the entire reference list in order to find each problem citation. Just ping my account when I can verify its completed. JohnWickTwo (talk) 14:53, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

@JohnWickTwo: I think I've repaired these links and updated the access dates; I ran the page through Checklink to be sure. --Drown Soda (talk) 22:36, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Nice of you to update the link dates and the article gets promoted. You should confirm if you wish to retain this wording in the lead section, "...Italian horror and giallo thrillers", to see if it matches the changes you made to the main body of the article. The additions you made are useful. For the family name of her parents, they both look very British in origin and it might be interesting to know how many generations one would need to go back in her family to encounter the Continental European roots if you should decide to try to move the article towards an FA nomination. The reception of Something Wild remains more of an art house film and the incident with sexual violence tests the Mon Amour standard of experiment with sexual violence further than previously done, as has been studied in the critical literature about this film. This could be of interest to readers of this promoted article on Baker if you decide to improve it further. JohnWickTwo (talk) 01:29, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

@JohnWickTwo: I completely forgot I left the giallo in the lead—I'll switch that out. Also, ditto on Something Wild. It's a seriously underrated film I think and I'll have to look into some of the scholarly work on it. I would like to look at getting this article toward FA status at some point as it seems reasonably close in terms of coverage. As far as her parents are concerned, the only reliable sources with information on her ancestry state she is of Polish descent—unsure if both her parents were of Polish descent. She doesn't say much about it in her book unfortunately. --Drown Soda (talk) 18:49, 29 June 2017 (UTC)