Talk:Bullets Over Broadway

Capitalisation of "Over"

Surely the word "Over" in the title should be capitalised? Excluding Wikipedia, you have to go 23 Google UK results down before the next result doesn't capitalise it. JaeDyWolf ~ Baka-San (talk) 20:55, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140623083150/http://www.playbill.com:80/news/article/189909-The-Verdict-Critics-Review-Woody-Allen-Musical-Bullets-Over-Broadway to http://www.playbill.com/news/article/189909-The-Verdict-Critics-Review-Woody-Allen-Musical-Bullets-Over-Broadway
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130906081329/http://www.playbill.com/news/article/179080-With-Reading-Underway-Woody-Allen-Musical-Bullets-Over-Broadway-Will-Test-Legs-in-Fall-Lab to http://www.playbill.com/news/article/179080-With-Reading-Underway-Woody-Allen-Musical-Bullets-Over-Broadway-Will-Test-Legs-in-Fall-Lab
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130905233933/http://www.playbill.com:80/news/article/179577-Zach-Braff-Brooks-Ashmanskas-Betsy-Wolfe-Vincent-Pastore-Set-for-Bullets-Over-Broadway-Opening-in-April-2014 to http://www.playbill.com/news/article/179577-Zach-Braff-Brooks-Ashmanskas-Betsy-Wolfe-Vincent-Pastore-Set-for-Bullets-Over-Broadway-Opening-in-April-2014
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140110131702/http://www.playbill.com/news/article/185162-Marin-Mazzie-Lands-Coveted-Leading-Role-in-Woody-Allen-Musical-Bullets-Over-Broadway?tsrc=hpt2 to http://www.playbill.com/news/article/185162-Marin-Mazzie-Lands-Coveted-Leading-Role-in-Woody-Allen-Musical-Bullets-Over-Broadway?tsrc=hpt2
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140110131700/http://www.playbill.com/news/article/186325-Karen-Ziemba-Joins-Woody-Allens-Bullets-Over-Broadway-Casting-Now-Complete?tsrc=hph to http://www.playbill.com/news/article/186325-Karen-Ziemba-Joins-Woody-Allens-Bullets-Over-Broadway-Casting-Now-Complete?tsrc=hph

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Requested move 15 July 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Move. Consensus is to follow usage in sources rather than MOS. (non-admin closure) В²C ☎ 06:34, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

---

Bullets over Broadway → Bullets Over Broadway – Please place your rationale for the proposed move here.--Filmomusico (talk) 23:39, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support per common and real name and per references and External links. After seeing the image of the film poster, which uses lowercase styling, I checked the on-screen title of the film and it is uppercased (as is the 2014 musical based on the film). Randy Kryn (talk) 13:36, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per MOS:CT. The four-letter word "over" is used in this title as a lowercase preposition, rather than as an uppercase adverb. Otherwise, MOS:CT would need to be revised before moves, such as the one proposed here, are implemented. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 14:54, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

• Common sense exceptions are supported by the guideline template, and this seems one per the sources and on-screen titling. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:14, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

As a strong supporter of adherence to on-screen title form (Talk:The 5,000 Fingers of Dr. T.#Requested move 16 December 2017, Talk:Fifth Avenue Girl#Requested move 25 April 2020 or Talk:Crazy, Stupid, Love#Requested move 21 April 2021), I can appreciate the desire to retain the original depiction. However, adherence to punctuation and stylization (ellipses, commas, exclamation points, etc) differs from capitalization.

Some films (1979's ...and justice for all) use lowercase for all, including title and actors' names. Other titles capitalize the initial letter of every word, including mid-title "And", "Of" and "The". It would seem that MOS:CT titling inconsistencies should be first resolved with some form of consensus at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Titles, rather than with WP:LOCALCONSENSUS at talk pages of individual titles. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 17:13, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Good points, and I probably got the adhering to screen-titles concept from you. Because of this discussion I'd like to play the film, which I've never seen (no spoilers please), and see if the name fits the plotline and, importantly, if it can be taken two or three ways. Will likely do so before this closes. Randy Kryn (talk) 18:07, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Consensus varies from case to case. My above-mentioned RM to retain the on-screen title form for 5th Ave Girl, which is stylized in its opening credits as 5TH AVE GIRL, did not receive any support and the title was moved to Fifth Avenue Girl.

Lengthy argumentation in 2013 at Talk:A Boy Was Born#Requested move (and post-discussion arguments) revolve around the fact that the title, as originally published, is stylized A Boy was Born, not A Boy Was Born, but the ultimate decision sided with MOS:CT, although not without continued dissent.

In the case at hand, "Over"/"over" seems to be the source of greater contention than other four-letter prepositions mentioned at MOS:CT, such as "from", "into", "like", "with" or "upon", however there has also been occasional contention regarding some of those (particularly "Like"/"like" when it is not used as a verb).

In instances where "Over" is used an adverb (Crossing Over or Game Over), it already has an initial cap, but the large majority of its uses as a preposition now appear to be also rendered with an initial cap, per examples above. Consensus seems to be uncertain regarding these inconsistencies since this discussion is basically a spillover from same day's Talk:Moon over Parador#Requested move 15 July 2021. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 03:17, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support This is a constant balance -- what to do when formatting suggested by the MOS is inconsistent with the official name and the name commonly used in reliable sources. But as the MOS makes clear that ultimately what we should do is defer to usage in reliable sourcing -- ""an adherence to conventions widely used in the genre are critically important to credibility." If the reliable sources used throughout coverage of the genre use the "correct title," it clearly runs against our guidelines purposes to intentionally choose to use a different one.--Yaksar (let's chat) 13:22, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose preposition. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:48, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per MOS:CT. Following our own Manual of Style is important because it ensures consistency within Wikipedia. And the Manual of Style clearly states that prepositions with four letters or fewer are not capitalized. (There is a potential exception mentioned regarding words that are frequently not a preposition, e.g. "Like" and "Past", but that exception does not apply to "over", which is mostly used as a preposition.) Darkday (talk) 17:01, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support, yes, the MoS should be followed when there is ambiguity. But the creators have the right to name their work whatever they like, with whatever capitalization they like, and we should respect that as part of their creative work without changing it Dhaluza (talk) 02:50, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support: See this ngram. While the two different capitalization approaches are in a dead heat today, the capitalized "Over" appears to have been dominant for most of the life of the film thus far. The official name's styling appears to vary, so I don't think it is worth taking into strong consideration.  Mysterymanblue  06:40, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.