Talk:Bob Shell

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Hi everybody. See the two 31 May edits by 'Tinbasher'. These edits, which are 'Tinbasher's' only contributions to Wikipedia, cast Shell in a very favorable light. 'Tinbasher' presents a story much different from the facts which led to Shell's manslaughter conviction. I suspect 'Tinbasher' may even be Bob Shell (if he has access to the internet in prison), or someone like his lawyer. Life is too short, and I'm too tired to revert the changes right now, but does anyone have comments? Is there a way to track 'Tinbasher's IP address?Joe Photon (talk) 06:32, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes indeed I do. Here are the edits. Tinbasher adds material on Shell's achievements, moving the emphasis of the article. Tinbasher is not being disruptive in any way. No request for an IP number is warranted.

I'm amazed that you are "too tired to revert the changes" (something that would have been easy to do) yet had the energy to write innuendo about their author. I suggest that you reconsider the changes carefully. If they remove worthwhile material, feel free to readd that material. If they add laudatory but unsourced material, feel free to ask for a source for this. If they simply don't square with the picture you have already formed of Shell, be prepared to have your picture changed somewhat. -- Hoary (talk) 07:03, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi Hoary. You miss my point, which is OK, because the interesting thing about the Franklin homicide is that it provoked contention like this among photographers. Some of 'Tinbasher's' laudatory stuff is OK, albeit unreferenced, and perhaps should stay. OTOH, the idea that Shell came home to find this woman had accidentally overdosed is laughable, and not supported by the evidence presented in court. 'Tinbasher's' edits also remove reference to the sex offence convictions. The details of Shell's personal history, not available elsewhere, suggests this was written by Shell himself or someone close to him. I'm doing other work right now but I'll get around to a revision sometime. Best wishes.Joe Photon (talk) 19:51, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I see now that Tinbasher made the major change from Shell drugging her to Shell arriving to find her dead. Well, what did the court determine? Simply, what was determined is how it should read.

As for the provenance of the rather gushy material about Shell's achievements, it looks like the kind of thing that might be presented in a potted bio within a book written or cowritten by him. I have one such book myself, but unfortunately have mislaid it. -- Hoary (talk) 11:54, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

The Roanoke Times article says:

Shell, 60, had been charged with felony homicide for accidentally killing the 19-year-old model by giving her a lethal dose of morphine at his West Main Street studio June 3, 2003.

But the jury convicted Shell of a lesser charge of involuntary manslaughter instead of the homicide charge, meaning they determined his negligence led to Franklin's death.

This is somewhat vague but suggests to me that what's said in your earlier version of the WP article -- Marion Franklin died as a result of a morphine overdose administered by Shell -- may not reflect what was determined in court. If you have a detailed and authoritative account of what happened at the trial, please bring it up on this talk page before adding this material to the article itself. -- Hoary (talk) 14:20, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi all-- The page had been extensively laundered, so I made some changes which will no doubt be contentious. Shell's photography was not just nude photography, it was 'erotic' by his own admission and the S & M nature of his final work is beyond doubt. The 'apparent drug overdose' was an indisputable morphine overdose according to the ME. There was eyewitness testimony that Shell put something in Franklin's drink with an eyedropper (the nature of which is disputed), and he was in possession of his dead mother's morphine. The 'attempted sex offences' include attempted forcible sodomy, which sounds a lot like a sex offence by most people's standards. The Joe Eaton article has some details on what went on at the trial, although I suspect someone will remove the reference. Good weekend and best wishes everybody.Joe Photon (talk) 22:33, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Without additional background information, the article by Eaton does look odd.

It says a considerable amount.

This in short, punch paragraphs.

All in all it looks very tabloidy. But maybe that's just Eaton's style.

More worryingly Eaton doesn't say where much of the content comes from.

So why should we believe him?

Still, I'll leave it. It's published in an actual newspaper.

Joe, you surprise me. You describe yourself as "a university teacher primarily interested in photographers, the history of photography, and photographic optics", but your list of edits shows virtually no interest in anything other than the sleazy side of Bob Shell. Would you care to explore some other aspect of Shell, or any among that huge majority of photographers who were never arrested? -- Hoary (talk) 01:47, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Laughin' out loud, all good comments, Hoary! I have a busy life, and infrequently edit anything on Wikipedia. I have pretty specialized knowledge limited to a few areas, but so do a lot of others, and their contributions are as good as mine. For example, I edited much of the page on Canon manual focus lenses-- took me a couple of hours-- but I'm sure it's been much improved since then.

My interest in the sad case of Mr Shell and Ms Franklin came from a few different sources. First, there was no Wikipedia entry, so I took it on myself to write one. I felt this was important, because the case was a deeply troubling one, which had attracted considerable (although impermanent) attention in the photographic media. Second was the disturbing relationship between the 'sleazy' (your word, not mine!) nature of Mr Shell's work, and the issue of violence against women. Although I don't agree with them, my feminist friends would argue that the death of Ms Franklin was a natural extension of Shell's erotic and sadistic-themed work. Whatever your views are, it's a topic that should be aired-- free discourse is a good thing, always.

Third was the fact that in the summer, the original entry had been laundered by a user named 'Tinbasher', to cast Shell in a positive light, as a misunderstood hard-luck case. These two edits remain Tinbasher's only contributions to Wikipedia, so being of a suspicious nature, I naturally suspect Tinbasher is someone with a not-quite-so-neutral point of view-- perhaps his lawyer.

For cryin' out loud, you criticized me in July for not editing the entry-- and now you're beating me up for editing it! Ya just can't win . . . Best wishes Hoary--  :>D Joe Photon (talk) 05:31, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

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