Talk:Billiard table

Wood

This post was moved here from Talk:John Rea (snooker player) since it was off-topic there but relevant here.

why the use of wood in the manufacturing of a snooker table and not other material [The previous unsigned comment was posted by 216.252.181.105 (talk · contribs), 13:06, 8 December 2005 ]

Merge from Pocket (billiards)

Resolved

I think Pocket (billiards) should be merged into this article, what's the point of having it seperate? We can just mention that some tables don't have pockets or returns. 128.6.176.51 20:34, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

• Support. There's not enough info about table pockets to warrant an entire article on them. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 01:44, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Marking this "resolved" as someone did the merge. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 21:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Merge from Snooker table

Resolved

Suggesting the possibility of merging this with the Billiards table article. There is much overlap, but still significant differences. I guess a snooker table is a specific kind of billiards table. StraussianNeocon 12:53, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Support. Instead of a bunch of small, kind of lame articles on this table variant and that, it would be much better to have a larger, really good article on cue sports tables in general and all their variations. The snooker one would be an immediate good section, and probably inspire the creation of similar ones for carom and pool games. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 01:44, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Marking this "resolved" as someone did the merge. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 21:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Materials and manufacture

Would like to see more on the materials used to make the frame / legs and the manufacturing processes. Could also mention pocket ball catching devices: string pockets -> parralel rails. StraussianNeocon 12:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Modern era

From the article's lead:

"In the modern era, all billiards tables, regardless of whether for carom billiards, pocket billiards or snooker, provide a flat surface usually made of quarried slate..."

What is the "modern era", or when did it start more or less? --ChaChaFut 03:21, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Cushion Rubber

I would like to make some changes to the Cushion Rubber article. Currently, I think it flows a little bit off topic, getting into cloth and nap. I would like to modify the cushion section, for example I'd like to cover:

1) Profiles (e.g. K66, K56, etc) 2) Bonding techniques (Glued for consumer models, bolted for commercial models) 3) Feather Strips, which is how the cloth is applied to the cushion 4) Brand examples, like Accufast (Produced by Olhausen) have a high gum-rubber content, usually colored black, without a reverse "C" channel. And, Velocity Rubber (Produced by The C.L. Bailey Co.) which has high gum-rubber content, vulcanized canvas on the back and top, with a reverse "C" channel *which is the hollow area behind some cushions*. 5) Possible features and benefits the different designs might employ, assuming they can be reliably sourced. 6) Differences between billiards, Snooker, and bumper pool cushions

I would also like to restructure the section a little bit, and improve the CLOTH section of the article similarly.

Let me know if anyone has objections. Lets get something from the Cue Sports project as a featured article! Donny417 03:24, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I got antsy and just took a crack at it. If it sucks, please revert me :). I will add a section that will cover different design and manufacturing techniques, and greatly expand the "Pocket Billiard" table section if thats okay with everyone. Donny417 04:01, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

oh, one last thing. I don't know how to mess with tables and other HTML type things, so someone is going to have to change that box up at the top of the section. I don't know how to do it yet (that is if I'm not reverted!) :( Donny417 04:03, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

File:Cushion Description.JPG

Well, here is a picture I made. I have some of this cushion rubber at my store, so if you need anymore pictures...or really pictures of anything billiard related, let me know. Unfortunately, I'm too dumb to figure out how to stick it in the article and make it look good :( here it is if anyone wants to make it happen Donny417 04:03, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

This isn't really matching the structure of the article too well; it really needs an overhaul (the entire article, I mean). It is in the process of diverging into sections, on each kind of table. I think this process got stalled for no particular reason (it began when Snooker table was merged into the article, and then I think people just got busy with other things and forgot; I know that's my excuse!) I think that before these sections there need to be sections about cushions, pockets, etc. in general that don't go into details, and then the details (K-profile, etc.) appearing in the pool, carom and snooker sections separately, with a lot of redundancy removal (e.g. the snooker section does not need to mention or link to vulcanization.)

Re: the photo, if you go to my user page, there's an "e-mail me" link you can use; after I reply to you you'll have my e-mail address, and if you send the original photo, I can probably make a version that will be more useful in the article. Did you actually take that photo yourself, though? I looks kind of like it came from a catalog or something. If you actually have all this stuff around in your shop, it would probably be really helpful for you to take pics of the different rail profiles in side view, so that the difference in the profiles can seen more clearly. If you put a ruler in the pics off to the side so it can be removed from the pics later, I can probably even re-size the pics to be perfect to-scale matches (either that or a tripod or something would need to be used, and the cushions placed in exactly the same positions for each photo - some means of ensuring that one photo wasn't taken 2 inches closer or whatever, making the scale not match). — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 06:36, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

PS: It didn't suck. Needs some cleanup (see the HTML comments, though some of those are notes for furture to-dos like adding something to WP:CUEGLOSS), but the basic info about the different profiles are important details. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 06:38, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

PPS: The C-channel needs to be explained (as to both its nature and function), or the L-shaped comment about snooker rails has no context. The other stuff you mentioned adding at the top of the thread sounds like a good plan, too, BTW. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 06:42, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Snooker table/Billiard table

Does anyone mind if I scale down the Snooker section? I think it should really be more of a stub, since Snooker has it's own article. Just a thought Donny417 06:17, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest that the problem is more that the article is disorganized, and that the pool and carom sections need similar expansion. I think the WikiProject Snooker folks would get upset if information were removed. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 06:40, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

The way this page is organised seems to suggest that snooker tables are not a type of billiard table, due to statements such as:

Compared to a billiards table, snooker table pockets are rounded -shouldn't this be compared to a pool table. Tables that are now refered to as snooker tables were originally used for playing english billiards.

The largest of these sizes, 4.5 ft by 9 ft, is the standard size for tournament play -again should this say "standard size for tournament play in pool"

I realise that in American usage pool tables are usually refered to as billiard tables but shouldn't the article reflect that these are only a type of billiard table. I would try and change the text but thought i'd mention it here first.

Well noted. This messiness is due to a merge (Snooker table was once a separate article). The article hasn't been properly re-written to handle the merge (short version: Needs all the common basic stuff at the top, then then differences explained for carom, pool and snooker tables.) Feel free to work on it! >-) If you're greatly interested in the overall topic you may wish to participate more broadly in WikiProject Cue sports. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:51, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Pockets openings

The pocket openings of modern standard snooker tables conform to special templates owned and controlled by the Governing Body of World Snooker. These templates are used for the snooker tables used in all professional snooker tournaments. History of Snooker I think this part is worthy to mention in pockets section at some form, because this means one cannot build perfect snooker table without these templates. And therefore we can't have exact measurements of table. Btw, if someone happens to measure professional table with ruler, and write measurements to this section, would it then be copyright infringement? -- Jari Pennanen 2:46, 30 August 2007

Pocket billiards tables

I'm not sure if UK pool tables should be included here or if they deserve their own subsection. I would go with the latter since there is more than one difference (dimensions, pocket apertures, and lack of diamond sights, to name a few). Either that, or put two subsections under "Pocket billiards tables". Any thoughts or comments on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Techin (talk • contribs) 07:20, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

They should definitely be included. Someone added subsections that referred to these tables, but it was done in a confusing way and a lot of the material was just kind of redundant. Because it seemed to mostly be motivated by a way to make British tables in particular seem special, instead of just another regional variant like Russian pyramid tables (also covered under pocket billiards), I just merged all this material into the "Pocket billiards (pool)" section, per WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE. I'm also going to remove references to World Pool-Billiard Association rules and specs as "American", since they're not. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 18:24, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Careful - I do not know what Americans mean by "pocket billiards", but in England it means playing with one's testicles, usually by putting one's hand into one's trouser pocket. Simon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.107.56.165 (talk) 19:31, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Section: Cushions

Under: Parts and equipment

"The purpose of the cushion rubber is to cause the billiard balls to rebound off the rubber while minimizing the loss of kinetic energy."

I believe minimizing the loss of KE is not among the purposes of a cushion.

If it were so I think they would have evolved to newer material/s, like a Super Ball-type rubber.

Which leads me to wonder how those compounds of material have changed over the years. How does rebound of the cushions of today compare to that of yesteryear? Maybe a History of cushions...?

Really nice work here. Perhaps "the" compendium of information relative to the cue arts.

I forget my login, I'm gpsman at driversmail (not "the" Wikipedia gpsman)--65.27.157.240 (talk) 17:26, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The claim does need to be reliably sourced. However, it is certainly true.

Firstly, the original rails were simple wicker or wooden walls. These were later replaced with straw-stuff cloth cushions to cut down on the racket. Rubber was introduced much later, and the only explanation for this, given how much more expensive rubber is than straw-stuffed cloth (especially then - it was hand harvested in the tropics and shipped, as in on a sailing ship, back to Europe and the Americas), yet actually less quiet. Rubber behaved differently than what amounts to a long, skinny pillow, namely in a more predictable rebound that is more vigorous, i.e. preserves more of the kinetic energy of the ball(s) in question.

Secondly, in the 1700s–1800s, there was a great deal of innovation going on in cue sports, including the development of the cue from the mace, the invention of the cue tip, of rubber cushions, of cue tip chalk, and so on, changes in the cloth, changes in table dimension, radical changes in number of balls and game rules, and so on and so on. That is essentially untrue today. Basic materials, among most other aspects, are not changing. Tips are still made of leather, even if they are now being laminated and made of elk and water buffalo and whathave you. Cushions are still made of vulcanized rubber, even if Olhausen and others have proprietary mixtures. Balls are still made of platic resins, even if Saluc and others are trying some alleged improvements over basic phenolic resin lately. There are loads of innovative products on the market, like radial spliced cue shafts and so on, but the really basic stuff of the game hasn't changed substantively in well over a century. So, we should not expect to see cushions made of the same stuff as SuperBalls. They would change the game very radically. Cue sports are increasingly becoming highly competitive and regulated sports, in which there is decreased tolerance for equipment variance and inconsistency.

Given that cushions a century ago were made of vulcanized rubber and still are, I doubt there's much difference in behavior (the profile of the cushion - where its widest horizontal point is relative to its height - is surely far more important). Impossible to test, though, since any cushions that old would be hard as bricks and just brittle chunks at this point.

The history of cushions certainly does need to be added. Fortunately this will be fairly easy to source, from Shamos's New Illustrated Encyclopedia of Billiards and Stein & Rubino's The Billiard Encyclopedia, both of which provide quite a bit of detail, including the stuff about wood, wicker and straw/cloth rails.

Glad you like the article. Maybe sign up to participate in the Cue sports WikiProject when you get your login ID sorted out. There are many subcategories full of pool, carom and snooker articles you can work on, plus see the sidebar here for an extensive to-do list, including articles that still need to be started. :-) — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 10:20, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Metric system

As the metric system is more widely used throughout the world, I believe it should be the standard in all wikipedia article, just as it is within the scientific community. Does anyone know whether or not wikimedia has any guidelines around that?

I'm not saying the imperial system should be removed altogether, it would be unfair to all the people who grew up with it. But it would make sense to have it in brackets (as opposed to the other way around).

--Crackettt (talk) 07:55, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

See WP:Manual of Style (dates and numbers) (or WP:MOSNUM for short). The talk page of Billiard table is not the place to propose a Wikipedia-wide standard; try WT:MOSNUM, and good luck. This article, like Billiard ball, uses both US/imperial units and metric units for everything (or should – there may be some cases were editors have forgotten to provide a conversion). They are given in the order favored by the billiards/pool/snooker industry on a case by case basis. E.g., snooker table dimension are officially given in feet and inches, despite the specs being published in metric England, meanwhile the official specifications for carom billiards tables are given in metric units, even though Americans like to still call them "5x10 foot" tables. It might seems a tad inconsistent in article prose, but it is consistent with the reliable sources, which is more important (WP:Verifiability is an official Wikipedia policy, while stylistic matters are the subject of a non-policy guideline, the WP:Manual of Style). — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 19:12, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

News article to consider for inclusion (novelty section)

Baker, Chris (27 Nov 2015). "Elliptical Pool". Wired. Retrieved 29 Nov 2015. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 16:43, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Temperature

In the commentary just now on the Ding Junhui vs. Mark Williams match at the snooker world championships one of the commentators (I forget whether it was John Parrott or John Virgo) mentioned that the usual temperature of the under-table heaters is 50 degrees celsius, but because of the excessive bounce of the cushions seen in earlier rounds of this tournament it has now been set to 46 degrees. I'm too busy watching the match to look into this more now, but can anyone find any good sources to create a "temperature" subsection of the "Snooker and English billiards" section of this article? 86.17.222.157 (talk) 18:30, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

It was John Virgo, who just mentioned it again. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 18:38, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Pocketless tables

Shouldn't there be a sentence in the lede about the pocketless (Carom billiards) tables? That's why I came to the article in the first place and it seems like an obvious place to mention it. Anyone else agree? __209.179.36.56 (talk) 00:10, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

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English dialect

An anonymous editor flipped the MOS:ENGVAR of this page to British English from American, on the basis that some British English was already used in it. This was actually all confined to the snooker section.

The page began in American English in 2004, and continued in it after it was no longer a stub in 2006. The only British English in it was introduced by merging some snooker material. Thus we would normally revert back to AmEng.

However, I've left this change as-is, and re-tagged the page as a BrEng article to match its present content. I think this makes sense, despite my initial "revert ENGVAR changes" reaction, because:

• The topic has no strong national or regional tie to the US or North America versus the UK.
• While it has no strong tie to the UK, it has a stronger one. While originating in France, the game was played in Britain before what is now the US and Canada, and predominantly came to North America by way of Britain and to a lesser extent France. Both the major types of table – pocketless carom tables and pocketed ones, which include pool and snooker/English billiards tables – existed in the UK before the US was even an idea, and long before the dialects firmly diverged in the late 18th to early 19th century.
• As a practical matter, it's jarring to have snooker material written in American English, because the game is rarely played in North America other than by immigrants (only about one out of 20 pool halls in North America provide a snooker table, and they're virtually unheard of in bars and homes; there is not a single North American snooker table manufacturer still in existence, and tables are imported from the UK, Hong Kong, etc.). Consequently, it will be long-term difficult, frustrating, and probably pointless to normalize this article to AmEng and try to keep it that way, because snooker editors are always going to "correct" things like color and center to colour and centre in the snooker material, and then others will either fight this, or normalize the rest of the material to BrEng. Insisting on AmEng on nothing but a "it was used first" technicality will no buy us anything but a "slow editwar".
• Snooker is more popular per capita in Canada than the US (Canada has produced several world-championship-level pro players, the US never has), and Canadian English uses centre almost exclusively and predominantly uses colour; this leaves US English as the odd one out here.
• It is not jarring for general cue sports material to be written in BrEng; only for snooker material in particular to be written in AmEng. Where terminology widely diverges we're already providing "translation" between BrEng and AmEng terms, in the entire category of articles.

In short, I'm not imposing the change (an anon did), but am declining to WP:BRD it, because I think ENGVAR's instruction to use talk-page discussion to reach a consensus is the best course of action on this.

Possible effect on other articles:

• I think this should also affect the Billiard ball article (the same colour/color, centre/center, baulk/balk issues will arise there in discussion of balls and placement, and its detailed section on snooker will lead to exactly the same ENGVAR conflict as at the present article).
• It should not affect Billiard hall or Cue stick, because "the colour balls" and "the centre line" and "the baulk line" have no intrinsic relation to sticks or venues.
• It should also not affect Cue sports techniques, since the majority of the source material in print in the English language are in AmEng, including by a landslide the professional-grade material on techniques; most snooker publications are beginner works, and those that are not primarily focus on aiming, speed, strategy and other less technical material; things like jump and massé shots are rare in snooker except for trick-shot exhibitions, and snooker tables do not have the diamond system, so all the bank, kick, and other technical information about that is confined to pool and carom, not snooker and English billiards (and even carom is primarily an American sport within the anglosphere, and primarily an Asian and continental European sport world-wide, with very little penetration in the UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, or other Commonwealth English countries, aside from Hong Kong and Singapore, which are tiny and in which English is not the primary language).
• Finally, it also should not affect Glossary of cue sports terms, which is written on a per-entry basis, though is defaulting to AmEng for shared topics, since the bulk of the material (like 95% of it) was written by Americans with American sources.

 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  13:07, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

References Numbering

What are the superscript numbers that follow the citations, e.g. at citations 1 and 2? Surely they lead nowhere and should be deleted? Billsmith60 (talk) 23:39, 17 November 2021 (UTC)