Talk:Bill Ayers

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External links modified

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I have just modified 4 external links on Bill Ayers. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

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I edited the lead

{{BLP noticeboard}}

Per the ping from BLP/N noticeboard here....

I've BOLDLY edited the header to remove the LABEL as both UNDUE and contrary to BLPCRIME. Basically the last year version looked much better as a concise summary of the article per WP:LEAD, except I dropped 'counterculture' as not literally part of the article.. It probably won't last, but here it is.

William Charles Ayers (/ɛərz/; born December 26, 1944) is an American elementary education theorist. During the 1960s, Ayers was a leader of the Weather Underground that opposed US involvement in the Vietnam War. He is known for his 1960s radical activism and his later work in education reform, curriculum and instruction.

References

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 00:15, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

BLPCRIME does not apply to the question of "terrorism", which is not a US Federal crime but (in this case) an investigative and administrative classification used by the FBI. The language previously in the lede was that Ayers was a leader of the Weathermen, and that the Weather Underground was classified as a terrorist group by the FBI. Ayers wrote an entire book about the first, and the second has nothing to do with Ayers, it is an assessment of the Weatherman group that stands or falls independent of BLP's of group members.

Ayers is known, in roughly descending order of notability, for leading the Weathermen, being a fugitive (his autobiography is titled Fugitive Days), his connections to Obama in Chicago, and being an education professor/author. The last item has gotten orders of magnitude less publicity than the others, and is academic notability rather than general notability. To exclusively describe him as an educationist in the first sentence is some kind of joke and ledes of that flavor that avoid describing his past as a fugitive (from what?) or are evasive about the nature of the Weathermen will probably keep getting reverted. 73.149.246.232 (talk) 06:51, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

I find the lede funny in extreme. Bill Ayers is not primarily known as "American elementary education theorist". It is the last item that would bring someone to his page. Both his Weatherman leadership and his connection to Obama are more notable. It's definitely a whitewash of a controversial BLP. But there is no sense in even trying make a more balanced edit. I know from experience on Wikipedia that articles with a favorable leftist tinge are brutally defended from any improvement. Seki1949 (talk) 04:17, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Seki1949, how is it a whitewash of a controversial BLP since the lead does include the Weather Underground, the bombings, and Obama? If it was a whitewash, it wouldn't be there at all. I imagine his education theory work is likely the last item that would bring you to the page, since it's clear you're looking for the negative explicitly, but there's much more to his biography than the Weather Underground and Obama. Further, your comments about the leftist fringe are not accurate or constructive and will not aid you in discussing article content. Assume good faith and stick to commenting on content, not editors. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:06, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

To be accurate, I was referring to the first sentence. Also I referred to a "leftist tinge" and not to a "leftist fringe". Seki1949 (talk) 23:44, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

MuboshguHow is it a whitewash? The lead in describes a founder and leader of a terrorist group first as an "elementary education theorist"--again, what he is least noted for, which should not come first--and then rosily claims that the Weatherman Underground terrorist was merely opposed to the Vietnam war. This is incredibly unserious Sachem131 (talk) 12:28, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Sachem131, you may not think he's most notable as an "elementary education theorist", but he has had a significant career in it. The second sentence begins During the 1960s, Ayers was a leader of the Weather Underground militant group, described by the FBI as a terrorist group, and the second paragraph of the lead then details the group, including their bombings. That doesn't sound like a "rosily" [sic] claim of anything. Nothing is whitewashed in the lead or the article. This is WP:NPOV. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:16, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Again it is what he is least known for, and therefore should not be the introductory sentence. He is more notable both for his connection to President Obama and as a leader of the terrorist group, the Weatherman Underground — as mention by @Seki1949. Giving preeminence to his less noteworthy engagements clearly whitewashes the more controversial elements of his career, and what he is best known for.

As a Wikipedia editor, I hope you are aware that "rosily" is a word. Although it appears you utilized it incorrectly, perhaps in an attempt to mock me. Sachem131 (talk) 15:53, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Changed lead paragraph to give emphasis to his Weatherman activities in the 60's as his most notable activity. Seki1949 (talk) 07:00, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

"Is known for" is not how we start biographies. I gave "rosily" the [sic] because the tense was wrong, hence a typo. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:09, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Reverted your edit. Ayers is best known as a member of the Weatherman in the 60's. That should be the lead. Most people coming to this article are looking for information on this aspect of his life. I am not unsympathetic to the argument that some level of violence may have been necessary to stop the Vietnam War. That he may have done good work later in life as an educational theorist is to his credit, but I dont' know if he would qualify for a Wikipedia article on this basis. This article certainly would not be heavily visited on that basis. Please discuss proposed changes to the lead paragraph on the talk page. Assume good faith. (talk) 00:20, 8 May 2022 (UTC) Seki1949 (talk) 00:26, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Non-encyclopedic Content

"Though his past may be controversial, many find him warm and accessible." I'm sure that many do, but this is not really encyclopedic material. I will be deleting this after allowing a period for any discussion. Seki1949 (talk) 07:54, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Looks like someone beat me to it. Article is better now. Seki1949 (talk) 17:09, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

This needs to be changed too, it sounds like a defense of Ayers instead of NPOV:

“The bombings, which caused no fatalities, resulted in Ayers being hunted as a fugitive for several years, until charges were dropped due to illegal actions by the FBI agents pursuing him and others. The bombings, which caused no fatalities, resulted in Ayers being hunted as a fugitive for several years, until charges were dropped due to illegal actions by the FBI agents pursuing him and others.”2600:1700:EDC0:3E80:8901:6F6A:D3B2:26BA (talk) 18:18, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

This sentence is self contradictory "The bombings caused no fatalities, except for three members killed when one of the group's devices accidentally exploded."

There were three fatalities. The "except" minimizes this fact.

I propose to replace it with "The only fatalities caused by the bombings were three members killed when one of the group's devices accidentally exploded." Seki1949 (talk) 23:56, 17 November 2024 (UTC)