Talk:Bikini/GA3

GA Review

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Reviewer: --Mkativerata (talk) 10:12, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi there. I'll probably take a few days on this, doing it section by section, no strict time limits. My approach with GA reviews is to simply try to make the article as good as it can be. Some of my comments will, therefore, be over and above what the GA criteria require.

Etymology

• "His name for the garment stuck with the media and the public." - This has a citation-needed tag. I wonder if the sentence is necessary; it bludgeons an obvious point.

Removed. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 02:17, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

• Three footnotes are listed for the Gernreich sentence. But only one of them seems to support it. The problem is that this one source is equivocal ("appears to have been Rudy Gernreich") while our article is not equivocal at all. [Also, the page reference for the source should be 100-101, not 101].

Ref improved. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 02:17, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

In antiquity

• "The origins of the two-piece swimsuit can be traced to antiquity..." All the source tells us is that the goddess wore a bikini-like garment. It's a bit of a leap from that to say that the origins of the bikini can be traced to this goddess, right? I doubt there's any causal or historical link between these ancient costumes and Mr Réard's 1946 invention.

Ref and copy fixed. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 02:41, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Bikini precursors

• "so that there was no exposed skin visible" - This seems tautological. In any case, surely there was skin visible: face, hands and feet. Do we need this part of the sentence at all?

Removed. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 02:57, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

• "In 1913, inspired by the introduction of females into Olympic swimming, the designer Carl Jantzen made the first functional two-piece swimwear, a close-fitting one-piece with shorts on the bottom and short sleeves on top" - This is worded too closely to the source.

Copy fixed. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 02:57, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

• "However, midriff fashion was stated as only for beaches and informal events and considered indecent to be worn in public" - page 702 seems to be the incorrect page number for the footnote - it is an index page.

Page number fixed. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 02:57, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

• "The fabric shortage continued for some time after the end of the war." Citation? The History Channel source suggests that production was going strong again by 1946.

Removed. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 02:57, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Modern bikini

• Jacques Heim launched his two-piece swimsuit in Paris which he called the atome, after the smallest known particle of matter,[citation needed] which he advertised as the world's "smallest bathing suit". - There are a few problems with this sentence: (1) Jacques Heim can be "Heim", (2) the double "which" is confusing, and (3) there is a citation-needed tag.

Cited (someone removed an earlier citation). Sentence split. And, it reads Heim now. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 17:11, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

• "His costume was created in the form of a bra and two triangular pieces connected by strips of material, slicing the top off Heim's bottoms, with a total area of 30 square inches (200 cm2) of cloth with newspaper-type print, which was advertised as "smaller than the smallest swimsuit" - a massive sentence - try splitting?

Turned into three sentences now. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 17:11, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

• "Bernardini received 50,000 fan letters, many of them from men." - I think "many of them men" is a bit of a captain obvious.

Done. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 17:11, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

• Is WordIQ.com a reliable source? And they're not the publisher of either of the footnotes.

Removed. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 17:11, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Social resistance

• "owner of mass market swimwear firm Cole of California[50] and American swimsuit mogul[29] Fred Cole" - this seems like an unnecessarily detailed description that obstructs the flow of the sentence

Sentence restructured. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 17:41, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

• "Fred Cole told Time that he had 'little but scorn for France's famed Bikinis." - the quote never closes

Closed. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 17:41, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

• "some countries with religious traditions" - this is very vague. Is "with religious traditions" necessary?

Replaced with actual country names. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 17:41, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

• "Though some regarded the bikini and beauty contests as freedom to women" - there seems to be a verb missing from between as and freedom

"Bringing". Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 17:41, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Rise to popularity

• "bikini capital of the world" - the source says "beachwear capital of the western world". I'd suggest a direct quote in our article.

Done. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 18:59, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

• "It is cited as the most famous bikini of all time and an iconic moment in cinematic and fashion history." - cited by whom? This is a very bold claim that I think needs inline attribution.

Query I see three inlines. Are they not right? Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 18:59, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

By inline I mean that it would be preferable for the person or persons who have made the "cite" to be mentioned in the text of the article. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:29, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Copy fixed. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 03:32, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• The Raquel Welch sentences are unsourced. The sentences aren't obvious facts so they ought to be sourced.

Paragraph redone with cites. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 18:59, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Mass acceptance

• "By the end of the century, the bikini had become the most popular beachwear around the globe." - this claim needs a source

Outside the Western world

• "Women go in breast augmentation and tummy tucks" ?

Removed. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 02:42, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• "In the Middle East, the bikini is still either banned" - I'd suggest dropping the "still"
• "In the Middle East, the bikini is still either banned or is highly controversial." - source? My immediate thought is that Israel is in the Middle East yet I doubt it is banned or controversial in Tel Aviv.

Edited. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 02:42, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

History (as a whole)

The history section of the article is strong on the cultural history of the bikini. But it is short on details of the history of the bikini's design, manufacture and economics. Did the design change over time? Did the way in which it was manufactured change? Who were the main manufacturers over time, and did they change? Are there sources that deal with these issues?

Included the history of material. Historical introduction and evolution of individual designs are covered in Major variants section. Looking for manufacturing information. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 03:32, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Bikini variants

• "The coverage offered can vary widely, from revealing pubikini, microkini and string bikini to a fuller designs such as the tankini, skirtini or bandeaukini." - this sentence is a bit of a mess grammatically. It also doesn't have a source, which isn't fatal as the claims are surely uncontentious, but I wonder if the sentence is needed at all. The third paragraph of the section seems to deal with the same material.

Merged with the opening sentence of the third paragraph. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 05:19, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• "Bikini variations have grown to include a large number of more or less revealing styles" - The list of variants that follows this is very long, and only some items in the list are wikilinked or explained. Pare back, perhaps?

Since some of the terms are given only here, I believe their inclusion increases comprehensiveness of the coverage. But, it was indeed cumbersome. So I moved it to the beginning of the sub-section "Major variants". Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 05:19, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• The table looks good: it is an effective method of presentation.
• "It reappeared a few years ago" - can we be more definitive, even if only down to a decade?

1990s. Done. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 05:19, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• "Dolce & Gabbana designed trikinis in summer 2005 as three scintillating sequined fabric pieces that barely covered the essentials." - the "scintillating" seems quite unnecessary, but even without it the sentence seems like a gratuitous plug for D&G.

Reworked the sentence. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 05:19, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Bikini in sport

• "Bikinis have become a major component of marketing various women's sports[149] and is an official uniform for beach volleyball and is widely worn in athletics and other sports." - there's a plural conflict here. Perhaps split the sentence into two?

Done. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 05:57, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• "However, the trend has raised some criticism." - any outline of the criticism? This sentence hangs without an explanation.

Done. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 05:57, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• "International Swimming Federation (FINA)" - Should it be The International Swimming Federation?

Done. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 05:57, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Beach volleyball

• "FIVB's" - we don't know what the FIVB is until the next paragraph. Perhaps re-structure this section: use the first para to talk about the Olympics and the FIVB, and the second paragraph to talk about what officials and players think about the bikini.
• "According to FIVB rules, female beach volleyball players have the option of playing in shorts or a one-piece swimsuit" - This contradicts the sentence that says the bikini is the "required uniform" for women.
• "At the 2006 Asian Games at Doha, Qatar, only one Muslim country fielded a team in the beach volleyball competition because of concerns that the uniform was inappropriate. The Iraqi team refused to wear bikinis." - It might be good, for flow, to clarify in the first sentence that Iraq was the "only team".
• "Beach volleyball became the fifth largest television audience of all the sports at the 2000 Summer Olympics at Bondi Beach" - this doesn't make sense - "became" is the wrong verb, I think.
• Who is Kimberly Bissell? An in-text explanation is needed as there's no wikilink.
• The WWE Diva sentence seems a bit too trivial for an article section about the sport of beach volleyball.
• "During the 2004 Olympics, an exotic dance team from the Canary Islands entertained fans but drew some criticism from female competitors" - this paragraph is relevant to beach volleyball but I don't see the relevance to bikinis.

Big update. I have thoroughly redone the beach volleyball section. I am afraid it would require another reading. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 08:40, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

That looks better; I've just made some minor tweaks. --Mkativerata (talk) 10:32, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Athletics

• "Women in athletics often wear bikinis the same size as those worn in beach volleyball" - "similar" might be better here than "same", especially without a direct source on the point.

Done. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 12:15, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Bodybuilding

• Is the FCCLA sentence relevant? The wikilink takes us to a page that has nothing to do with bodybuilding.

Removed. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 12:15, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Other sports

• "While most beach movies depend on surfs and bikinis the beach party films specifically included Surf Party, a film on surf culture made in 1961." - I don't understand the purpose or meaning of this sentence.

Removed. Even the sources failed to put meaning to the sentence. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 12:15, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• Is the Bikini Basketball Association worthy of mention? It seems more a (failing) marketing gimmick than a genuine sport, and looks out of place alongside, surfing, volleyball, etc.

Moved to Bikini in popular culture. More appropriate. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 12:15, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• The Vicky Botwright example seems trivial.

Removed. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 12:15, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• The Alexander Putnam example seems irrelevant.

Removed. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 12:15, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Bikini body

• "The New York Times reported the opinion that the bikini is permissible for people are not "too fat or too thin"." - it would be good to have a year for the NYT report, because both the preceding and succeeding sentences do.

1961. Done. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 02:06, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

• "Since then, a number of bikini designers including Malia Mills have encouraged women of all ages and body types to take up the style. The 1970s saw the rise of the lean ideal of female body and figures like Cheryl Tiegs, who possessed the figure that remains in vogue in the 21st century." - given the direct attribution, these sentences need sources

Cited inline. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 02:06, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

• "Movies like Blue Crush and TV reality shows like Surf Girls has merged to concept of bikini model and athletes together" - there are a couple of plural conflicts here.

Copy edited. Please check. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 02:06, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

• "Yearly Spring Break festivities, which mark the start of the bikini season" - it would be good to limit this sentence geographically, because the spring break only seems to be a US/Nth America thing.

Done. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 02:06, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Bikini underwear

• The whole of the first paragraph is cited to a commercial underwear outlet. Is it reliable?

Added citations. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 06:06, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

• "By the 1960s, the bikini swimsuit influenced panty styles and coincided with the cut of the new lower rise jeans and pants." - source?

Cited inline. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 06:06, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

• "This decade marks the sexualization and eroticization of the male body" - marked?

Edited. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 06:06, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Men's bikini

• The second paragraph is too close a paraphrase of [1].

Edited. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 12:56, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Bikini waxing

• The pubic region surely isn't "also known as the bikini line" - one is a region and the other is a line. (I know what the sentence is trying to say, but it just doesn't say it correctly.) Perhaps get rid of it, because the next sentence accurately explains what a bikini line is, making the parentheses in the first sentence redundant.

Edited. Request Please check if it works. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 12:27, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

• "commonly by women" - shouldn't it be "commonly on women", or something similar?

Edited out. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 12:27, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

• "also known as the "Triangle", removal pubic hair from the sides to form a triangle so that pubic hair cannot be seen while wearing a bikini bottom, also at the top of the thighs and under the navel" - this, and the following two parenthetical sentences, don't make grammatical sense. I think too much is trying to be done in each of the parentheses. Perhaps split into three or four separate sentences.

Improvement attempted. Request Please check if it works. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 12:27, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

• At first, it is suggested that "Brazilian" and "Hollywood" are synonymous ("also known as"), but in the next sentence it appears that they are different things.

Clarified. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 12:27, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

The changes mentioned above look fine. --Mkativerata (talk) 11:47, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

How do I club together back-to-back inline citations (like those in the "Bikini waxing" section). Please check to see that the cites have some complexity in them. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 12:27, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

I think WP:CITEBUNDLE is what you're looking for, though I wonder whether removing some of the citations wouldn't work just as well. Do those sentences really need a half-dozen different sources? Huon (talk) 15:04, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Didn't work. Not as easy. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 04:52, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Bikini tan

• I don't think "Sun tanning" is a "main article" here; it's a much broader topic.

"See also" now. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 15:38, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

• "Wearing a bikini in the sun results in tanning of uncovered skin and creates a "bikini tan" - might need to tone this sentences down a bit - what about people with very dark skin, who do not tan to the extent that a tan line would result?

Brought back the original sentence from an earlier version. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 15:38, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

• "Chemical company BASF incorporated nanotechnology into bikinis for better UV protection as wet clothes have reduced protection against UV light in 2003" - this sentence doesn't make sense.

Rewrote using the source. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 15:38, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

• The section twice uses the term "declared", and I think it does so incorrectly. "Announced" might be more appropriate.

Done. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 15:38, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

• The final paragraph seems out of place in this section. I don't see how a bikini that protects the skin from UV rays will in any way affect the development of a bikini tan.

~Copy edited. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 15:38, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

[Sorry, I'm falling a bit behind. I'll only need two more stabs: one for the lead and one for the overall, so I should have this wrapped up by Friday.]

Lead

• "The modern bikini was first introduced by French engineer Louis Réard and separately by fashion designer Jacques Heim in Paris in 1946." - a couple of commas would help here. Presently it reads like Heim introduced it in Paris in 1946, while the location and date of Reard's introduction is unknown.

Clarified. This was screwed up by diligent fan of Heim, who was quite convinced that history is wrong and Heim is inventor. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 17:40, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

• "The style was not quickly adopted due to its controversial, revealing design, and many western countries banned it from beaches and public places." - A few issues with this sentence - the first bit is vague because it is around the wrong way, and 'countries' often don't ban bikinis; councils and local authorities do. I'd suggest: "Due to its controversial and revealing design, the bikini was slow to be adopted. In many countries it was banned from beaches and public places."

Done. This was screwed up by large number or people, including I, trying to pack too much into one sentence. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 17:40, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

• "The original bikini style has acquired a positive connotation in popular culture." - Where does this come from? It's an enormous generalisation.

Removed. I have no clue of its origins. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 17:40, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

• "These stylistic variations like monokini, microkini, tankini, trikini, pubikini, bandeaukini and skirtini are usually unimportant to the general public." - This sentence needs some more punctuation but I'd go so far as to suggest deleting it.

Rewrote. That "unimportant" part seemed quite unsourced and unimportant to me.

• The one section of the article with which the lead doesn't deal is sport. I think it should, if only briefly (a sentence or two).

Included. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 17:40, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Overall

Thanks for your patience with this, Aditya. After all the changes above, I am confident that the article meets the GA criteria. The prose is now quite solid. The article is also comprehensive, and the internal balance has benefitted from the sports section being trimmed a bit and the history section expanded. My confidence is supported by the fact that the article was on the verge of being passed before the second review expired. Well done! --Mkativerata (talk) 23:53, 10 April 2015 (UTC)