Talk:Bernard Freyberg, 1st Baron Freyberg

Untitled

I have moved this page back to Bernard Freyberg as it conforms with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) -- Popsracer 04:43 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Actually, these seem to indicate that the format A B, nth of X be generally used, except in the case of life peers, which Freyberg was not. -- Lord Emsworth 01:49, Jan 13, 2004 (UTC)

There was a big vote on this matter not too long ago, and I'm fairly certain that the outcome supported the "most common name" rule. Bernard Freyberg's most common name was and is Bernard Freyberg. -- Vardion 07:09, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Actually, policy is to use the peerage unless the person concerned is known universally without it, as is the case with many British Prime Ministers, for instance. "Lord Freyberg" gets more than a thousand Google hits, and so the non-peerage form is not universal. Proteus (Talk) 07:21, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

But what is the origin of this "policy"? The vote (Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Peerage/Archived_talk_3 approved exceptions to the use of peerage titles, but the idea that peerage titles should automatically be included unless "unheard of" seems to have been put forward solely by User:John Kenney (after, not during, the poll). I do not believe that there was any consensus to support this "policy" - the poll approved exceptions, but didn't specify whether they should be common or rare. That was determined afterwards, and without any substantial input from the community. I'm not going to move this page just yet, but I don't consider this "policy" to be valid (yet), and suggest that the matter be brought up at the Village Pump for general consideration. -- Vardion 07:39, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Dentist

Regarding my Persondata entry on Freyberg--he was indeed a dentist at one point. Thr Dictionary of New Zealand Biography on Freyberg notes:

"Freyberg’s aspiration to be a doctor died with his early departure from school, and he was apprenticed to a Wellington dentist. He was admitted to the Dentists’ Register of New Zealand on 22 May 1911. His first post was as an assistant and locum tenens in Morrinsville, and he would later practise in Hamilton and Levin."

It actually describes him as "Dentist, military leader, governor general" Hehe :D Greentubing 08:16, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Heh, I removed it thinking it was somebody's weird sense of humour. I stand corrected. Leithp 08:22, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Neither the title Governor General nor any British military ranks are hyphenated. Extramural

honorific-prefix

The honorific-prefix section of the info box shows Freybergs title to be: Lieutenant-General The Right Honourable ....

Now i will admit that am not up on the titles given to people but surely this should only be "The Right Honourable" with the military rank dropped?--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 16:01, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

You're right....you're not up on titles! It is correct as it stands. Have a look at Harold Alexander for another example and the way it slides from "The Honourable" to "The Right Honourable" in 1946! Stephen Kirrage ^{talk - contribs} 17:49, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Right oh! :)--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 20:03, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Mexico?

I don't think Freyberg's involvement in the Mexican Revolution was ever substantiated. The Oxford Companion to New Zealand Military History says 'he may have been briefly involved'.

I has been debunked - he made it up.https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/43794076 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Agh47 (talk • contribs) 03:40, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Arms

I have added Freyberg's personal coat of arms. I have a reliable source and will add it (along with descriptions of several other elements) as soon as I get the time. Cheers —Preceding unsigned comment added by A1 Aardvark (talk • contribs) 12:39, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Freyberg buildings

I see Freyburg High School in Palmerston North is mentioned - how about adding Freyburg Community School in Te Atatu? Or the Freyburg Building on Stout St, Wellington?

Naval Victoria Cross

I was reading an article about Lord Freyberg, and he was awarded the 'Naval Victoria Cross' in 1917 which has a blue ribbon (similar to the George Cross). Until 1920 the Victoria Cross was split into two categories (army and navy) with seperate ribbons. I believe it should be noted in the article somewhere as in 1917 there was a difference, however Lord Freyberg did recieve a crimson ribbon in 1920.

• [1]

Regards, Nford24 (Want to have a chat?) 09:22, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

DSOs

I'm rather confused on the whole DSO thing.

Was he awarded three bars to his DSO ? The infobox states 'one DSO and three bars'. As does the lede. In the 'First World War' section, para 6, which starts: 'Freyberg gained promotion...' he gained his first bar, but in para 7 he gained his third bar. And in the 'Second World War' section, he won his third bar !
In the 'Styles' section, it is worded, in italics: 'An asterisk denotes a Bar to the DSO'. The last entry shows: 'DSO***', which I take to mean (to put it crudely), one medal and three supplementary whatsits. That makes a total of four awards !!
What is the correct total?

RASAM (talk) 14:21, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

3 Bars to the DSO - commonly written as DSO*** though not on formal documents.Garlicplanting (talk) 11:32, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes. After the first DSO any additional DSO award is referred to as a bar (this applies to other medals as well). This is because if you receive multiple awards of a medal, you only wear the first medal and each subsequent award is evidenced by a metal clasp ("bar") on the ribbon of the first medal. He was awarded three bars to the DSO which means in effect he was awarded the DSO four times. The second bar (ie third DSO) was at the very end of WWI and the fourth DSO (third bar) was in WWII. If you follow the links to the citations in the London Gazette this will all become clear. An extraordinary achievement when you consider he was also awarded the VC. Stephen Kirrage ^{talk - contribs} 15:48, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

I believe no-one else has achieved it.Garlicplanting (talk) 11:28, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Frederick Lumsden also held a VC, DSO & Three Bars, all awarded during the First World War. He is the only other I am aware of, though a few VC recipients also held a DSO & Two Bars (such as John Vereker, 6th Viscount Gort, David Wanklyn and Leonard Cheshire, to name a couple). Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 12:18, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

I stand corrected - I could think of various with two as you list but had forgotten Lumsden. Garlicplanting (talk) 14:36, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

ULTRA

'Battle of Crete. Controversy surrounds his use of ULTRA intelligence messages during this battle.'

This needs explaining. I heard that the campaign would logically have been called-off, but this would have alerted the enemy that their decrypts had been understood. Freyberg then had the miserable job of launching the campaign, and going round giving pep-talks, knowing that it would fail, with terrible losses. Valetude (talk) 00:11, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Freyberg would almost certainly have been unaware of the existence of Ultra, and any information supplied to him from that source would have had its origin disguised.

Knowledge of Ultra was restricted to a comparatively few individuals, and personnel, e.g. field officers, of any rank, who might some day be at risk of capture were specifically excluded from being informed, the notable exception being Montgomery.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.173.52 (talk) 19:43, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

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British/New Zealander

The lead currently reads Freyberg "was a British-born New Zealand soldier and Victoria Cross recipient...". As indicated by my edits [2] [3], this description is inaccurate. Even if we ignore for a moment that "xxx-born" is discouraged per WP:ETHNICITY, the lead gives the impression that Freyberg was almost exclusively a New Zealander. Yet he was born, died and spent the majority of his life in the UK. His military career was predominantly in the British Army, and he won his VC while serving with the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. I do not, of course, challenge Fregberg's association with New Zealand. But the lead as it currently stands minimises his association with Britain. As my above edits indicate, altering the lead to "was a British-New Zealand soldier and Victoria Cross recipient" is a far more accurate description and is consistent with usage elsewhere on WP. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 05:27, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Should Joan Sutherland who spent most of her life away from Australia be described as Scottish or Swiss? Eddaido (talk) 05:45, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

What relevance does Joan Sutherland have to Freyberg? And even if one were to follow that logic, it would appear to support that Freyberg should be identified as British. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 05:51, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

No. Joan Sutherland is Australian (says WP), Freyberg is a New Zealander. Please do not try to change New Zealand history. Eddaido (talk) 05:53, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

What proof do you have that Freyberg was exclusively a New Zealander? His place of birth, death, and where he spent the vast majority of his life and career directly contradict your claims. WP is built on verifiability, not nationalism. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 05:58, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

It reads to me as if you know little of your subject (or about Joan Sutherland). What I have done is made a note of your concerns on the talk page of Wikiproject New Zealand and let any one who might be interested come up with their thoughts. It will be interesting to see whether or not there is any interest in the matter. Eddaido (talk) 06:04, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Not a big building even by local standards but it was our Defence headquarters. Eddaido (talk) 06:19, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

According to the Dictionary of New Zealand Biography entry here, his family moved to Wellington when he was two and he didn't leave New Zealand until he was 25 years old, so he was at least brought up as a New Zealander. Jon (talk) 12:51, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Categorisation of Freyberg —> British Army generals of World War I and —> Military personnel from London

Hi Schwede66, please would you give your opinion of the appropriateness of adding Freyberg to these categories. Thanks in advance etc. Eddaido (talk) 04:50, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Eddaido, well, he grew up in New Zealand and when he joined the Navy, I would have thought it's clear that he did so as a New Zealander. Schwede66 07:42, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Schwede66 Mmm, yes although I think I'm in a position to vouch for his not being "in the navy". Must say your thoughts aren't very clear. Can you recommend someone else? Eddaido (talk) 08:34, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Zawed, Stanley Bannerman Do you people have any strong feelings on this matter? Eddaido (talk) 08:34, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Eddaido, sorry can't help. Schwede66 08:37, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi Eddaido, I have revised this comment after looking at the article edit history and realising what the problem is. The British Army Generals in WW1 category seems fine. Personally, I think being a 'temporary' brigadier general in WW1 is enough to warrant the category - I don't think we need to be too pedantic about that. I am not so sure, however, about the Military personnel from London category. I think there has been a misunderstanding on this because Richmond has been part of Greater London since 1965. Therefore using the modern borders Freyberg would be a Londoner. However, the use of modern borders is not appropriate and the 1889 borders from when Freyberg was born should be used (i.e. not born in London). Additionally, although Freyberg did spend time later in his life in London for various occupations, I would argue not enough (or not at a key stage of his life) to be called a Londoner. But it depends how you define being from London. Stanley Bannerman (talk) 18:12, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm with Stanley regarding the British Army generals cat. For the London category I'm not so fussed. Zawed (talk) 03:11, 11 January 2022 (UTC)