Talk:Beira's Place

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Hey Adam Cuerden. You mentioned at WT:LGBT that this article is covering the subject in a way that is perhaps too "glowing". Could you tell use more about the problems you're seeing? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:16, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

It's one of those things where the wording is fairly passive. Like, I get that it's a mixture of good with one really transphobic idea at its core and in how people (including Rowling) compare it to, say, Rape Crisis Scotland, but there´s passive and more on the nose ways to say that. e.g.

Current

Beira's Place (/ˈbaɪrə/ BY-rə) is a Scotland-based private support service for female victims of sexual violence. Founded in 2022 by J. K. Rowling, the organisation describes itself as a "women-only service", and does not hire or provide services to transgender women.

Maximally other side

Beira's Place (/ˈbaɪrə/ BY-rə) is a trans-exclusionary Scotland-based private support service for female victims of sexual violence. Founded in 2022 by J. K. Rowling shortly before a vote on the Gender Recognition Reform bill, the organisation describes itself as a "women-only service", but refuses to hire or provide services to transgender women.

I'm intentionally going a bit far, but I do think that including framing to how the publicity of its launch was used, and also making very clear it´´s actively trans-exclusionary are kind of big points. I think there's at least a balance that could be struck. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.9% of all FPs.} 18:46, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be good to mention sooner that the centre doesn't serve trans women, given that it's such a feature of RS coverage and of Rowling's stated purpose in founding the place. I don't know if "trans-exclusionary" is the right term. I don't see it (at least not verbatim) in RS, and there's the complication of trans men being (at least presumably) allowed as clients. The part about the GR bill vote is on shaky ground in the body, since the source doesn't mention the vote. Maybe there's a newer source available? Also, I worry that including that context in the lead, and not the context of Wadhwa's comments, might mislead readers about Rowling's motivation, at least as she states it. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:10, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

From what I've seen, sources that explicitly talk about the topic are pretty negative on the idea that trans-exclusionary feminism is somehow not exclusionary because it "includes" trans men as women. See the bottom paragraph of this section, for instance. Loki (talk) 01:54, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

FWIW I don't think that's anywhere near "maximally other side" or that it's going too far at all. I don't even think YFNS's version is maximally anti-Rowling (and support something like it). Maximally anti-Rowling would be something like:

Beira's Place is a transphobic organization founded and exclusively funded by well-known TERF J.K. Rowling. It falsely describes itself as a "woman only service" but does not hire or provide services to transgender women. While it was allegedly founded to support survivors of sexual violence, Rowling has admitted it was in fact founded out of spite against remarks critical of transphobia by Edinburgh Rape Crisis CEO Mridul Wadhwa.

That's the actual other end of the scale. (And that's only sticking roughly to the facts and a mostly-Wikipedia-compatible tone. Absent those restrictions I could have done even worse.) Comparatively speaking, what you've written as the other end of the scale is extremely tame. Loki (talk) 02:06, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

You have a fair point. I guess I'm holding back a bit because it's one of those things where Rowling has to some extent insulated herself: Saying that she's bad for funding a rape crisis centre looks bad, but she also makes it clear this is for very bad reasons. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.9% of all FPs.} 10:39, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Some quick thoughts on improvement:

1. These sources support "serving and employing cisgender women only":qnews, the mary sue, pinknews, the standard
2. Mention Lamont of FWS is on the board in the lead, the fact the head of a particularly notable GC advocacy group is a board member shouldn't be buried.
3. Make the response from Rape Crisis Scotland more prominent, who noted they've supporting trans and nonbinary people for 15 years without incident (we mention it but bury it and fudge the date: had done so for years does not make me think 15 years) [1][2][3][4]
4. Mention the context of transphobic attacks on the existing rape crisis centers[5][6][7][8]
   • Very related note, this would be better than the selective quote from Mridul Wadhwa, whose comments were about all forms of bigotry (racism, xenophobia, transphobia, etc)
5. These sentences are not based on secondary coverage: British author and lesbian feminist Julie Bindel wrote, "Beira’s Place will be an oasis, and hopefully signal the beginning of a new feminist revolution." Woman's Place UK released a statement of solidarity and support for the new organisation.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 00:22, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Refining the thought a little, I think a good lead would be something like: Beira's Place is a Scotland-based private support service employing and serving only cisgender women; the service was founded by JK Rowling in 2022 in protest of the longstanding trans-inclusive policies of Rape Crisis Scotland. The service is entirely funded by Rowling, who serves on the board along with XYZ. It has been criticized for its explicit refusal to hire or serve transgender women. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 00:56, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Number 5 is a great point. Removed. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:30, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Just to bring attention to the body. The paragraph in history starting "After the founding..." Seems very clunky at the moment. It tries to give a balanced view of the controvery but balances rape crisis Scotland with Julie bindel, Reem Alsalem and women's place UK. From a quick view it seems like Beira's place is widely praised for being a rape crisis centre, but has a controversial policy that some use as further praise and some deem as unnecessary and hurts a vulnerable community. As well as this it seems to have some controversial apointments for positions. I've got to say Rape crisis Scotland has to be the most relevant source (it has done the same job for decades across Scotland), I think the quote that rape crisis Scotland hasn't had an incident for 15 years across Scotland is relevant and should probably be quoted. I think some of the praise should be summarised or cut (why are Julie bindel and women's place UK notable to be included as primary sources). LunaHasArrived (talk) 12:29, 30 July 2024 (UTC)