Talk:Basmala

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hello help pls

use harakat, its very important بَسمَلَةۡ فاتح باشر (talk) 07:34, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Help rename

rename page to Bismillah Saifullah.vguj (talk) 18:23, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

@Saifullah.vguj: please see the discussions above, which you don't appear to have read. Doug Weller talk 09:38, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

@UserDoug Weller please at least read the calligraphy even the calligraphy reads Bism-allah not basmala hope you know how to read Arabic Saifullah.vguj (talk) 15:32, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

As has been discussed VERY EXTENSIVELY over the past 15 years(!), "Bismillah" is the first two words of the phrase "Bismi-llah ar-raHman ar-raHim", while "Basmala" is the name of the ENTIRE PHRASE "Bismi-llah ar-raHman ar-raHim" (all four words of it, not just the first two words). So Bismillah and Basmala are very different things -- they are spelled differently in Arabic, and they have different meanings. I seriously doubt that you will be able to come up with any new arguments which haven't been discussed in detail during the last 15 years, but feel free to to try to surprise us. (By the way, I hope you spell your name with a letter sad not a sin.) -- AnonMoos (talk) 15:48, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

I would personally prefer a different name for the article as well. Basmala is a relatively new rendition of the name, and actually violates the rules of the Arabic language. Regardless, it does exist, even if it may be linguistically incorrect. Personally, I think Bismillah or Tasmiyah would be a better name, though not for the reasons Saifullah has given, which are confusing two different things as AnonMoos has pointed out. Also, changing the Arabic text in the article to Urdu needs to stop. -- LissanX (talk) 01:06, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

What do you mean "violates the rules of the Arabic language"? It's derived from an ad hoc quadriliteral formed by collecting the first four consonants of the phrase, in exactly the same way as hamdala. It's a word listed in standard Arabic dictionaries which clearly and unambiguously refers to all four words of the phrase "Bismi-llah ar-raHman ar-raHim" (which is not the case with Bismillah).... AnonMoos (talk) 03:04, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Exactly, it’s a portmanteau which has no basis in original Arabic. The correct noun for the phrase is تَسْمِيَة, which relates to “naming” (i.e. “in the name of...”) and has been the name used for centuries. The word “Basmala” was mostly mentioned in verb form in earlier dictionaries, for example: “لقد بَسمَلَتْ هندٌ غداةَ لَقِيتها”, “لقد بَسمَلَتْ هندٌ غداةَ لَقِيتها”, “فيا حَبَّذا ذاك الحَبِيبُ المُبَسْمِل”, etc. In most cases, it isn’t even defined as referring to all four words of the phrase. Of course there are other examples of verbs, such as حَسْبَلَ، حَيْعَلَ، سَبْحَلَ، حَوْلَقَ، حَوْقَلَ. “Standard” Arabic is riddled with semiliterate words, including “hamdalah”, which is a laughable word used to refer to the Tahmid.

The contracted “Bismillah” also does clearly and unambiguously refer to the entire phrase, it’s not confused with anything else and is commonly used in the Arab and Muslim world to refer to the phrase. In fact, most non-Arab countries refer to the full phrase as “Bismillah”.

I’m not saying the word “Basmala” doesn’t exist in modern Arabic, I’m saying it’s a semiliterate word introduced into a mutilated language. It’s also not common among non-Arab Muslims. — LissanX (talk) 06:05, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

It is not a portmanteau according to any useful and specific definition of "portmanteau". (The Semitic languages do not naturally lend themseves to portmanteaus, but if you want one, there's kaduregel meaning "football/soccer" in Modern Hebrew.) It's derived from an ad-hoc quadriliteral (four-consonant) root, which is something rather different. And the Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic covers educated Modern Standard Arabic usage (i.e. the high side of Arabic diglossia), and does not include too many "semiliterate" words. Also, Bismillah naturally means the two words Bismillah, but can sometimes also mean the whole four word phrase. Since it has more than one meaning, it's not unambiguous... AnonMoos (talk) 08:52, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

It is very common among non-Arab Muslims. In the country with the biggest Muslim population in the world (Indonesia), clerics (including countless ulamāʼ who have studied in Saudi Arabia or at Al-Azhar), teachers, and ordinary believers commonly refer to the phrase as id:basmalah. E.g. every introductory book to the correct practice of salāh either says "say Bismillahirrahmanirrahim" or "say the basmalah". I'm surprised to see that it is supposedly unheard of in other countries. My interaction with Arab, Turkish and other imams gives a different impression. –Austronesier (talk) 17:39, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

@AnonMoos: I think I was unclear on my main point, which is that the word “Basmalah” is most correctly used as a verbal noun relating to the act of saying the phrase, while the word “Tasmiyah” is a verbal noun used as a proper noun for the phrase itself, not the saying of the phrase.

Specifically regarding the issue of including all four words, many dictionaries do no explicitly state this is the case. For example:

Kitab al-Ayn:

بسمل: بَسْمَلَ الرّجلُ، إذا كتب: بسم الله، قال:

لقد بَسمَلَتْ هندٌ غداةَ لَقِيتها ... فيا حبّذا ذاك الدّلالُ المبسمل

Taj al-Lughah:

[بسمل] قال ابن السكيت: بَسْمَلَ الرجل، إذا قال بسم الله. يقال: قد أكثرتَ من الـبسملة، أي من قول بِسْمِ الله .

Mukhtar as-Sihah:

ب س م ل: (بَسْمَلَ) الرَّجُلُ إِذَا قَالَ بِسْمِ اللَّهِ، يُقَالُ: قَدْ أَكْثَرْتَ مِنَ الْــبَسْمَلَةِ أَيْ مِنْ قَوْلِ بِسْمِ اللَّهِ.

Misbah al-Munir:

ب س م ل : بَسْمَلَ بَسْمَلَةً إذَا قَالَ أَوْ كَتَبَ بِسْمِ اللَّهِ

Lisaan al-Arab:

بسمل: التهذيب في الرباعي: بَسْمَل الرجلُ إِذا كتب بسم افيفي بَسْمَلة؛

وأَنشد قول الشاعر: لقد بَسْمَلَت لَيْلى غَداةَ لَقِيتُها، فيا حَبَّذا ذاك الحَبِيبُ المُبَسْمِل

(* قوله «ذاك الحبيب إلخ» كذا بالأصل، والمشهور: الحديث المبسمل بفتح الميم الثانية)

قال محمد بن المكرم: كان ينبغي أَن يقول قبل الاستشهاد بهذا البيت:

وبسمل إِذا قال بسم افيفي أَيضاً، وينشد البيت. ويقال: قد أَكثرت من الــبسملة أَي من قول بسم افيفي .

Even Lane in his lexicon explicitly states that “Basmalah” can refer to either just “Bism Allah” or the full “Bism Allah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim”:

بَسْمَلَ, inf. n. بَسْمَلَةٌ, He said, or wrote, (T, Msb,) بِسْمِ اللّٰهِ [In, or with, the name of God I recite, or read, or I begin, &c.]: or بِسْمِ اللّٰهِ الرَّحْمَانِ الرَّحِيمِ [In, or with, the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful]

@Austronesier: with respect to Indonesia, that is a country with ~270 million out of a world Muslim population total of ~2 billion. I know for a fact that in Persian, spoken by over 100 million people across several countries, the shortening “Bismillah” is used. From my own personal experience, in Pakistan, India and Bangladesh, the second, third and fourth largest Muslim populations in the world which combine for ~550 million Muslims, they also use Bismillah, as do Azeri Turks, Pashtos, Uzbeks, etc. That may just be anecdotal, so maybe others can confirm or correct me.

Importantly, even in places where “Basmalah” is used, the shortening “Bismillah” is also either used or understood, making the word “Bismillah” more widespread and universal. — LissanX (talk) 02:41, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I am absolutely open for a well-argued page move discussion based on WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRECISE. LissanX's last comment is very well-argued for that purpose (certainly better than talking about a "semiliterate word introduced into a mutilated language", and calling hamdalah "a laughable word"). A page title must not necessarily be based on the abstract designation of the topic; if it is a phrase, the phrase itself may as well be apt for the page title, cf. Alhamdulillah. The deplorable uninformedness of some of the commenters in the last 15 years is truly embarassing, but should give us a hint that we possibly do not follow WP:COMMONNAME here. –Austronesier (talk) 13:07, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Bohemian Rhapsody

In the lyrics of Bohemian Rhapsody a 1975 song by the British rock band Queen, bismila is used which is the same thing. Can we have a popular culture section to mention it? Aminabzz (talk) 15:25, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

See the comment of "00:33, 8 May 2017" above for sourced text which was previously on the article. Not sure why it was deleted. AnonMoos (talk) 17:31, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

It is Bismillah not basmallah

pls change it Makingislam (talk) 14:52, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

This has been explained many times on this page since 2005(!): Basmala is the NAME of the ENTIRE PHRASE "Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim", while Bismillah is the first two words of the phrase. AnonMoos (talk) 23:22, 8 November 2023 (UTC)