Talk:Baselios Thomas I

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Baselios Thomas I. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061206220720/http://www.saintgregorios.org:80/PARUMALA/Catholicos_ThomasI.htm to http://www.saintgregorios.org/PARUMALA/Catholicos_ThomasI.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 00:06, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Maphrian of the East

One user/Some users is/are continuously adding a title "Maphrian of the East" along with Catholicos of India. A citation given from a google books link is an incorrect one. There is no mention about such a title in official websites of Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch and Jacobite Syrian Church of India. The website http://www.catholicose.org/PauloseII/Catholicate.htm clearly says "However in the 20th century when this office of the Maphrianate under the Holy See of Antioch was established in India, the chief of the local church assumed the title ‘Catholicos’. It is this title that is being used in India today, while the title ‘Maphryono’ (Maphrian) is no longer used" . Hence please provide some references (other than the mentioned Google book link) that Catholicos of India is also known as "Maphrian of the East" -122.167.45.78 (talk) 16:35, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 16 October 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Mugsalot has confidently asserted that "Baselios" is a regnal name, and Elizium23 concurs, withdrawing his own RM. Elizium23 (talk) 15:36, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

---

• Baselios Thomas I → Thomas I of Kerala
• Basil Solomon → Solomon (Maphrian)
• Baselios Yeldo → Yeldo
• Basil Lazarus III → Lazarus III
• Basil Matthew II → Matthew II (Maphrian)
• Baselios Paulose II → Paulose II (Maphrian)

– "Baselios" is an honorific and per MOS:HON it should not be included in article titles such as this. I am open to suggestion for the new name; this is some touchy disambiguation. Elizium23 (talk) 10:34, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Basil or Baselios is not a title, it is a regnal name, much like how popes adopt names upon their consecration. Sources do not use article titles as you have suggested. Mugsalot (talk) 11:07, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Mugsalot, do you have a source for that regnal name bit, please? I mean, you know it means "King" in Greek? Elizium23 (talk) 11:16, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Elizium23, first and foremost you have provided no sources to support your assertion that Basil/Baselios is an honorific. I am aware Basileus in Greek translates to "king", but that has no bearing on this subject. As I have already expressed, sources do not use the article titles you suggest, e.g. The Syriac World (2018), pp. 811-813, History of the Syrian Dioceses, GEDSH: Thomas Christians etc, plus you've provided no sources to support those article names are used anywhere. A quick Google search easily finds Catholicos in History and Tradition, which states "After 1523 the Maphrians began to add Basil (Baselios) to their names" on page 2, demonstrating that they adopted it as a name, not a title. Mugsalot (talk) 18:08, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Mugsalot, I add "Mr." to my name, not sure I follow. Elizium23 (talk) 21:15, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

I will work on sources, but I have precedent in prior articles that have been moved away from "Baselios". I am not sure how to collate all those results, but past RMs have certainly been of the opinion that Baselios is an honorific to be kept out of article titles. Elizium23 (talk) 21:17, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

• Talk:Dionysius IV of Cheppad#Requested move 1 August 2019 was the big one. Talk:Paulose I (Indian Orthodox Church)#Requested move 12 May 2020 was my follow-up. As you can see, there is widespread consensus to remove "Baselios". Elizium23 (talk) 21:24, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

  See Talk:Mathews Mar Thimothios#Requested move 17 October 2020 for a "Mar" followup. Elizium23 (talk) 21:31, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

No. Mar is a title, and I concur with that decision to move those articles, whereas Basil/Baselios is a regnal name, much like how Syriac Orthodox patriarchs adopt Ignatius upon their consecration, and should not be removed. Sources do not use the article titles you have provided. You are conflating two separate customs, the use of a title of respect, and the name adopted upon consecration. Mugsalot (talk) 21:37, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Mugsalot, let me pick your brain on this, then. I would prefer to see sources, but your word is valuable to me.

• Joseph Mar Thoma - when a bishop takes the regnal name of "Mar Thoma" the "Mar" seems joined fast to the "Thoma" part. So is it a regnal compound name of "Mar Thoma", or is the "Mar" an honorific component that might be stripped? I think the answer lies in the sources unanimously employing the honorific, which would trigger an exemption. Elizium23 (talk) 07:02, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Admittedly, I've always steered clear of St Thomas Christian topics because they're notorious for poor English additions and edit warring between Jacobite Syrian Christian Church users and Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church users, and also frankly because it doesn't interest me, so it's not a subject I'm well versed in. In Syriac Christianity, "Mar (fem. Mart) Literally *Syriac for 'my master'. Honorific used especially as a title for native saints or *bishops", from the Oxford Dictionary of Late Antiquity (2018), p. 957. I would suggest doing some research as I couldn't confidently comment on Indian practices, but I am certain that Basil/Baselios is not a title, and is identical to the adoption of Ignatius by Syriac Orthodox patriarchs as a regnal name. Mugsalot (talk) 11:29, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

---

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Catholicos B.ThomasI.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:16, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Baselios Thomas Catholicos.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:06, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Copyvio

@Pbritti: I'm looking into the tagged copyvio, and the oldest archive I can find is from 2014, which is 8 years after this article was created with the copied content. I'm therefore uncertain whether Wikipedia contains content copied from this site, or if this site copied content from Wikipedia. Do you have any evidence in this regard? --Chris | Crazycomputers (talk) 03:14, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

In lieu of a this page, I've created a section at WT:CP for this issue to attract more attention. If you have any info, please respond there instead. Thanks! --Chris | Crazycomputers (talk) 03:20, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@Crazycomputers: The smoking gun is how the initials of his name are rendered. On the church website and the original version of this article, the initials are rendered as C M (no periods, spaces between initials). By the end of 2007, the article on Wikipedia had swapped in C.M. (periods, no spaces). This suggests that, barring strong evidence to the contrary, the church website came first. ~ Pbritti (talk) 03:49, 1 November 2024 (UTC)