Talk:Avdo Međedović

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Thanks to the anonymous editor for the new link. But, unless I misread it, it doesn't say that Avdo was an Albanian. He sang in what was then called Serbo-Croat.

Therefore I took out the "Albanian" claim. If there's any evidence that he was Albanian, please reinstate it with a real reference. Andrew Dalby 15:37, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

A reference has now been supplied and has been incorporated in the article. Andrew Dalby 13:32, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

The argument is based on prejudice and ill wishes and thus should be removed. If Avdo's cap makes him an Albanian, then Vuk Karadzic’s fez makes him a Turk.

The article in the same newspaper Danas (http://www.danas.co.yu/20060109/terazije1.html): "Avdo Međedović je bošnjački pjesnik i nikako se ne može smatrati albanskim! O tome postoji svjedočanstvo, tj. dokaz: intervju profesora M. Perija sa pjesnikom Avdom, koji je obavljen 1934. godine u Bijelom Polju, a koji je objavljen kao dodatak čuvenom epu "Ženidba Smailagić Meha". Naime, na pitanje čuvenog profesora, kako se osjeća po nacionalnosti?, pjesnik Avdo je odgovorio: "... vičemo se Bošnjaci! [We are Bosniaks]" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.174.140.88 (talk • contribs)

It wasn't the cap (I don't do clothes), it was the text that seemed to merit a reference.

Given the added information you have, I suggest you edit the article to include this information. But Wikipedia wants you to "assume good faith" (not make accusations of "prejudice and ill wishes"). It's excellent to include and give good references for your own views; it is not so good to "remove" the views of others. We're writing for adults, so we assume that our readers can judge between controversial opinions. Andrew Dalby 15:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

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Removal of sourced content

That edit [1] is merely a removal of sourced content. The editor should carefully read WP:RS and WP:OR. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:45, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Though this (Albanian: Avdullah Ferizi) is sourced, it's hard to verify and no other source that I've checked give this exact name. Artem.G (talk) 14:56, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

@Alltan: who added that content [2] could take a look at your concern. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:29, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

It is obviously incorrect information. Which is why i removed it yesterday. On one side we have Harvard that stores the collections of Milman Parry and Albert Lord that actually had face-to-face conversations with Avdo Međedović through a Serb translator. And on the other side we have some fringe site that claims him to actually be Avdullah Ferizi and his mother tongue Albanian. Rijekaneretva (talk) 18:26, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Not only that. But this sentence "Međedović was a Slavic speaking Muslim of Albanian origin, born in the village of Obrov, near Bijelo Polje (now in Montenegro) in 1875, while it was a part of the Ottoman Empire. His ancestors were Serbian Orthodox," doesn't make much sense either. Were his ancestors Albanian or Serb? These are 2 different ethnic groups When you click on the source for this sentence you are taken to the Google Books site where the search bar just says "avdo medjedovic albanian origin" 1 result.

The source for this sentence doesn't look too good either "It is unclear what was his mother tongue; he spoke Serbo-Croatian but not as a first language. He also knew some Albanian." I feel like this would have been mentioned in the Harvard collection. Rijekaneretva (talk) 18:37, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

The source on his origin meets the WP:RS criteria. It does not "look too good" to you because you do not like what it says. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:42, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Of course i do not like what it says. He is a Slavic speaking Muslim of Albanian origin. But his ancestors were also Serbian Orthodox? Tell me how this works. The funniest thing of all is that Međedović told Milman Parry and Lord what his own national identification is. Even if that is the case he is portrayed as a Slavic speaking Muslim of Albanian origin whose ancestors were Serb Orthodox.

In the Conversation with Avdo Međedović conducted by Nikola Vujnović (July 31, 1935 in Bijelo Polje) Nikola's question "Were there Bosniaks with you then?" Thinking about those with whom Avdo went to the army, Avdo replied "To Sjenica we left from Bijelo polje.... four hundred guys, all Bosniaks shouting at each other, Bosniaks in one camp. In Sjenica there were all Arnauts and Turkuše. We call these Anatolians Turkuše."

And then the claim that he spoke Albanian because the translator could not understand what he said is unlikely aswell. How is it not more likely that it was Turkish since that is what he learnt in the army? Where does he speak Albanian in the audio recordings?

It's a shame i don't know any other way of counteracting this blatant misinformation except for endless edit and revert wars. Rijekaneretva (talk) 20:26, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

"Albanian" refers to his family's ethnic origin, and "Serbian Orthodox" to his family's religious origin. If you can't see the difference between ethnicity and religion, that is a big issue. One can be an ethnic Albanian and be a member of the Serbian Orthodox church at the same time. Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:39, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Being Albanian and of the Serbian Orthodox Church may have happened in the past, but that was a long time ago, during the Middle Ages. Since that time, you won't find any Albanian claiming that he is a member of the Serbian Orthdodox Church. And this certainly never happened in the Rovčani tribe, to which Međedović's ancestors belonged, and where everyone there was a Serb until their territory was annexed by Montenegro. Even now, most of people from Rovca consider themselves Serbs, a few of them view themselves as Montenegrins, but certainly not as Albanians. A few years ago, the original sentence on Wikipedia was that: "His family had Serbian Orthodox ancestry, being related to the Rovčani clan and coming from Nikšić, having been converted in the past centuries, though Avdo himself did not know when or why the family converted to Islam." And this was sourced using the most reliable source regarding Međedović, which is the Milman Parry and Albert Lord collections. Krisitor (talk) 21:19, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

This is exactly what i am talking about. A source by people that are world renowned in the field that they studied. Milman Parry and Albert Lord, has been replaced by some really bad sources.

Also thank you for clarifying the possibility of Avdo having both an Albanian origin and his ancestors being Orthodox Serbs. Anybody that wants to view such a statement from a genuine and neutral standpoint will accept that it simply does not work that way. Ktrimi991 would be pardoned for having such beliefs if he perhaps was a Westerner checking out this Wikipedia page. But he's a Balkaner.

Do you know any way of fixing this blatant disinformation without having to go through alot of trouble? Rijekaneretva (talk) 21:45, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Hello Rijekaneretva,

This problem has already been partially corrected by Artem G. and myself: Artem removed the Albanian name and I reinstated the mention about Avdo's ancestors coming from Rovca and Nikšić. There is still the mention of an Albanian origin though, but this comes from people who were not specialists of Avdo and as you said, this obviously contradicts the sentence that comes right after, which points to a Serb origin and which comes from Avdo's own claims.

Now, more generally, if you don't want to get into trouble, you need to source your claims using reliable sources and also be very careful about how many reverts you make in a day. In particular, there is a rule called the 3RR: if you revert more than 3 times in 24 hours, you can be blocked. Doing so repeatedly can even get you banned, even if your edits are legitimate and sourced: I experienced this in August under another account.

Finally, regarding the "Albanian origin", this has been a problem in many Wikipedia pages for at least 2 years. For example, some of the Brda tribes are now presented as being of Albanian origin using sources mainly from Albanian non-specialists of these tribes, even though the specialized Yugoslav historiography has never supported this. A similar problem exists with some Bosniak areas of Sandžak that are claimed to be Albanian. For example, more than 5,000 Slavic Muslims from Bihor were massacred by Chetniks in 1943, but if you check the article, this is presented as a massacre of Albanians, using a very dubious Albanian source.

Cheers,

Kris Krisitor (talk) 09:41, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying how stuff around here works. Sometime in the future i'll attempt (with sources) to classify him as belonging to the Bosniak corpus which is obvious by his epic poems. With Serb Orthodox ancestors. I think the truthfullness of the claim that his ancestors were Albanian is obvious to most here, most likely stems from the belief that every Muslim in the Sandžak region is a assimilated Albanian, or the cap he wore which was common in the Sandžak region even worn by Serbs. The source that claims he knew Albanian isn't that believable either.

Have a good day. Rijekaneretva (talk) 10:37, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

This is from a source Avdo was Moslem, as is clear from his given name, Abdullah; but by blood he was Slavic. In centuries past his family had been Serbian Orthodox and had come from central Montenegro; they were related to the Rovčani and came from Nikšić. [2] Avdo knew neither when nor why they had embraced Islam. {57} Lord, Albert B. "4. Avdo Međedović, Guslar". Epic Singers and Oral Tradition. Retrieved 4 November 2022.. So he did tell Lord and Parry that he was a Muslim and of Serbian Orthodox ancestry, but I see nothing about Albanian origins. Artem.G (talk) 08:35, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

References

Avdo Mededovičs ethnicity

Hello fellow Wikipedia users

After I read the Wikipedia Page of Avdo Mededovič i saw that some wrote that he was of Albanian origin which is false he himself claimed that he came from the Rovčani tribe which ethnically serbian [3]https://books.google.de/books?id=FpJlDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA69&dq=avdo+medjedovic&hl=de&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&ovdme=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjGh66Bv7WHAxV18AIHHQI7AasQ6AF6BAgNEAM this is the source where it talks about his ethnic background on page. 57 2A02:3100:5969:F201:81F:EE7C:BD34:FAAC (talk) 11:20, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Albanian ethnicity, really?

The inclusion of the poorly sourced "Albanian ethnicity" of Avdo in English Wikipedia has not been unnoticed in academic circles: Wikipedia as a Battleground for an Exclusive Ethnic Appropriation of Cultural Heritage: Who Does Avdo Međedović Belong to? An interesting part concerns the source in question:

Stavljanje, ako se uopšte može tako reći, albanske verzije imena Međedovića uz njegovo slovensko prezime ukazuje da je jedan od urednika ove vikipedijske stranice mogao biti naklonjen viđenju u kojoj je Međedović albanskog pore-kla.31 Na stranici je krajem oktobra 2022. godine pisalo i da je: „Međedović was a Slavic speaking Muslim of Albanian origin” pozivajući se na dva izvora: na zbornik Balkan in Focus: Cultural Boundaries in Europe koji je uredilo dvoje autora iz Švedske, Sanimir Resic i Barbara Törnquist-Plewa, kao i na onlajntekst Arbnore Duši sa Albanološkog instituta u Prištini. Link prvog izvora vodi ka tzv.screenshot-u samo jednog segmenta stranice 72 pomenutog zbornika iz Švedske na kojem se nije moglo identifikovati ko je autor teksta iz zbornika. Malo dubljim istraživanjem na internetu dolazi se do saznanja da se radi o tek-stu Who Owns the Gusle? Contribution to Research on the Political History of a Balkan Musical Instrument koji je pisao Ivan Čolović (Čolović 2022, 72). Dakle, izgleda kao da je autor teksta na Vikipediji tražio dokaz da je Međedović Albanac, našao ga u tekstu iz pomenutog zbornika iz Švedske, ne potrudivši se da pritom navede ko je autor rečene tvrdnje, tj. da navede Ivana Čolovića kao autora teksta.

Translation: The inclusion, if it can be called that, of the Albanian version of the name Međedović alongside his Slavic surname suggests that one of the editors of this Wikipedia page may have been inclined to view Međedović as of Albanian descent. At the end of October 2022, the page stated that "Međedović was a Slavic speaking Muslim of Albanian origin," referencing two sources: the anthology *Balkan in Focus: Cultural Boundaries in Europe*, edited by two Swedish authors, Sanimir Resic and Barbara Törnquist-Plewa, as well as an online text by Arbnor Duši from the Albanological Institute in Priština. The link to the first source leads to a screenshot of just one segment of page 72 of the mentioned anthology, where it is unclear who authored the text. A deeper search online reveals that it refers to the text "Who Owns the Gusle? Contribution to Research on the Political History of a Balkan Musical Instrument," written by Ivan Čolović (Čolović 2022, 72). Thus, it appears that the Wikipedia author sought evidence to claim that Međedović was Albanian, found it in the mentioned Swedish anthology, but did not take the effort to cite who made that assertion, i.e., to mention Ivan Čolović as the author of the text.

Since Avdo himself never mentioned any Albanian origin, in the extensive exchanges he had with Parry and Lord, and in agreement with WP:ONUS, the Swedish source, which in fact refers to a chapter written by Ivan Čolović, should be removed from the article. Krisitor (talk) 14:59, 29 October 2024 (UTC)