Talk:Arsenal F.C./Archive 8

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Stadiums

The first image in this section (of the north bank) superimposes the text. I don't know how to fix this. Matt Adore (talk) 23:10, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

It renders OK for me in Firefox on Linux and Mac OS X. Can you tell us what browser you are using and supply a screenshot (if possible)? Qwghlm (talk) 10:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Additional: I've just tweaked the image code slightly, which may or may not fix the superimposition problem - can you have another check? Qwghlm (talk) 10:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Firefox on Vista. The word 'Between' is slightly over the image. Matt Adore (talk) 17:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

After fiddling with the broswer window a bit I think it might be the kit box above it interfering & pushing down the photos. I've moved it up - is it fixed now? Qwghlm (talk) 19:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

New Kit/Jersey

http://www.arsenal.com/article.asp?thisNav=News&article=492277 someone get on fixing that Theasfl (talk) 18:18, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

With the shirt section If a history of shirts would interest peopls (it did me thats why i searched it) I found a site which has a decent list (photos included). http://hem.passagen.se/arsenalshirts/ Djbourno —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.36.245.25 (talk) 10:11, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip - it's already linked to from this page - see references 21 and 23. Qwghlm (talk) 11:40, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

No criticism?

Surely there should be a comment posting that Arsenal have the largest proportion of non UK & Ireland born players in their first squad of ANY of the Premier league teams ???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.30.156.106 (talk) 15:32, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Current Standings

I think someone should consider creating a table or a section speaking about Arsenal's standings against all the other clubs. Kalivd (talk) 15:22, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a news service. Besides, the 2007-08 standings are given in the infobox at the top of the pagee already as is a link to the current season, so the information is covered elsewhere. Qwghlm (talk) 16:40, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Third kit

The third kit on the page isn't the one which will be used in 2008/09 season. I have made a png image and is freely available on http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/1614/arsenalthirdkit0809nb7.png —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tjfmuk (talk • contribs) 21:13, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Current Squad

Someone has deleted the younger players in the Current Squad section, the comment being "Current Squad is only first teamers". I haven't changed this back because I can see a lot of discussion over this happening in edits, just want to say that I think this is not right. Those players, even though they were young, were put forward by Wenger as the squad numbers for the Champions League 2008-09 therefore I believe they deserve to be named here. Some of the players, such as Mark Randall, even though he is only 18, has the squad number 47 and mostly only plays in the reserves, he has 6 first team league appearences for Arsenal as well as already featuring in the Champions League this season. SURELY this would mean he is a 'first team' player? 24framespersecond (talk) 04:44, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Randall is actually in the team playing West Brom today, and has the number 47. I've reverted and readded them, as UEFA states they are first-teamers. Thanks, Mattythewhite (talk) 12:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

And my two penn'orth. As I see it, Arsenal has two squads - a senior squad and a youth squad. There isn't a reserve squad. The Premier League wrote a letter to Tottenham after their infamous "poisoned lasagne" incident and specifically mentioned the number of professional players that Tottenham had registered. The players are not registered for the reserve competitions and seperately for first team competitions. --Goonerak (talk) 13:43, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The players listed should be those listed as First Tema Players on the clubs official website, therfore I have deleted all those that aren't stated to be first team players on arsenal.com and i think they should stay off the list, whether UEFA say they are first teamers or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Red&White4life (talk • contribs) 16:30, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

So, Mark Randall is not considered a first team player but Jack Wilshere is even though a) they were both on the bench for both of Arsenal's competitive games so far this season, b) Randall has played more first team games this season, c) Randall has played more games for Arsenal in total, d) Randall is more than 2 years older tha Wilshere?--Goonerak (talk) 19:49, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

All I am saying is that the Arsenal website officially represents Arsenal FC and surely what the club itself states is more true than anything else?Red&White4life (talk) 08:29, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "more true". UEFA counts as a reliable source as well, besides nothing on the UEFA list contradicts the Arsenal.com squad list or says it's wrong - the UEFA list is just more complete, that's all. Goonerak is right, Randall was considered a first-teamer on Saturday and if he is in then they should all be in. I'm restoring the list. Qwghlm (talk) 23:13, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok then, if he is right and Mark Randall should be in the squad on here, then what about players like Sanchez Watt who have never even been in the squad for a competitive match ? Surely they shouldn't be on the list ? Red&White4life (talk) 16:25, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Last season Watt was a youth team player & signed professional this summer and, hence is now considered part of the first team squad. Expect to see him involved in the Carling Cup this season. Without having checked I would expect the other players to be in the same situation.--Goonerak (talk) 17:46, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Indeed - when Fabregas made his debut he wore 57 on his shirt so its by no means implausible that we won't see some of them in before very long - might not even be the Carling Cup with with Premier League now having seven man benches, and the current injury crisis. Qwghlm (talk) 17:58, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

But even so I think it is unsuitable to have them on there if they have never been in the squad for a competitive first team match. In that respect players like Gibbs, Randall etc should be listed as they have been involved on more than one occasion. Red&White4life (talk) 14:12, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

By that same standard then Vela, Wilshere, Mannone and Bischoff should be excluded as well - none of them have played a first-team competitive match for Arsenal either. Qwghlm (talk) 14:56, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I said in the squad, so of those mannone and biscoff should not be in there as vela and wilshere have been in the squad for a competitive game.Red&White4life (talk) 15:57, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

You're now contradicting yourself - before you said it should be players on Arsenal.com only - Mannone & Bischoff are included on that page - now you're saying they shouldn't be. Which one is it? Qwghlm (talk) 16:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

OK then fine put on the youth players that have never been in the squad and arent on the first team on Arsenal.com completely stupid but go ahead you are obviously not going to give up on arguing the toss over it Red&White4life (talk) 18:20, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The players that have been included are not youth players, they are former youth players who are now professionals.--Goonerak (talk) 18:33, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

OK but the section is titled First Team players but I at least wouldn't class them as just that and I think many would agree Red&White4life (talk) 08:41, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

How about instead of trying to make up some incredibly complicated and ultimately bullshit standards for including players in the squad, we just USE THE FUCKING LIST THAT ARSENAL FOOTBALL CLUB PROVIDES US. Charles 15:08, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it's for the best to follow the official website of the club itself. It shows who they think deserves to be called a first squad member. As for UEFA.com, it's no wonder that there are far more players registered there, because a club has to send a note with all the players they intend to use for the European games. So many youth players are on that list as well, to prevent problems when there are a lot of injuries. Earlier, PSV Eindhoven had problems because they didn't register Ruud van Nistelrooij and John de Jong, because they had long-term injuries. They recovered before the end of the season however, but they weren't registered. Therefore they weren't allowed to play. In the 2006-07 season, John de Jong was missing on the PSV first-team list according to UEFA.com, because he wasn't registered.

Besides, i think this discussion is ridiciolous, Arsenal announced on their official website who is in their first team, so why pick UEFA.com as a source over the official website of the club itself?? Lucha-Method (talk) 13:44, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Exactly what I have been saying all the way through this ridiciolous discussion!Red&White4life (talk) 16:23, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Because UEFA is a reliable source - after all, Arsenal FC gave them those squad numbers when registering the players and at least one player not on the Arsenal.com list (Randall) has been picked for the matchday squad played for Arsenal in a first-team competitive game this season. The Arsenal.com list is correct but it is not necessarily complete. Should we exclude Randall because Arsenal.com does not consider him a first-team player, even if Wenger does? Of course not. All of these players have been given numbers because they've been considered for selection for the first team at some point in the season, and Wikipedia should abide by that. Restoring. Qwghlm (talk) 21:06, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I understand your point, but the UEFA.com list also has players who are loaned out by the way. Like Vincent Van den Berg, who's joined FC Zwolle for over a month now. And Nacer Barazite who joined Derby County on loan. UEFA.com only gives complete lists of the clubs who play in the Champions League. There are high profiled clubs like Feyenoord, who has an list of squad players, but the list hasn't been updated since January 2007. Wouldn't it feel disorganized for clubs like Arsenal, Manchester United to have complete UEFA.com lists, where all the other Premier League's squads aren't complete? I can understand why, since i watched the talk page, but other viewers could get confused why there is so many squad players at the Champions League clubs. And should we apply the list to the templates? Lucha-Method (talk) 15:46, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Surely having a first team squad and reserve team squad would be more confusing. It would imply that there are two distinct teams with players in each squad only being eligible to play in certain competitions. Also, the increase in the number of substitutes for each game has made it neccessary to have much bigger squads for first team competitions. Can you really see Premier League teams having 18 fit players from their so-called "first team squads" available every week?--Goonerak (talk) 06:59, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Notice that the reserve and first teams are pictured seperatly on the Arsenal website, so if all the reserves were first team squad members, why are they photographed seperatly to their team mates in the senior squad?Red&White4life (talk) 07:17, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Arsenal's first team is listed on their website: http://www.arsenal.com/first-team/players . Quite frankly, no-one's opinion here matters, it's not about that. It's about who Arsenal say are in their first team —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.203.84 (talk) 10:07, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I have been deleting the younger players because they are NOT first team squad members. As the comment above me says, Arsenal's official website lists all the first team squad members. That is the list we should use, and that is the list that has been used on this article for years. Charles 14:42, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense - last season's squad list also used UEFA-supplied numbers in addition to Arsenal.com (e.g.). I will re-emphasise this point - Mark Randall has played for the Arsenal first team this season despite not being Arsenal.com list so it cannot be considered the be-all and end-all. We are only two games into the season and we will no doubt see more players from the fringes for the Carling Cup campaign and the odd Premier League match, just like every other season in recent memory. They should stay. Qwghlm (talk) 15:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

You are entirely and 100% wrong here. UEFA has no authority in terms of naming players to the first team. That is solely the job of Arsenal Football Club, and it is their website with which we get the list. Your Mark Randall example doesn't make sense; Jack Wilshere played many times for the first team before he was promoted to become an official first team member. Charles 19:14, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Wilshere hasn't played a first team game yet! He's played a few friendlies and that's it. Someone like Randall on the other hand has played both Premier League and Champions League games... yet he is not counted as an Arsenal's "Current Squad". Note that the page doesn't say first team... just "current squad". As I said earlier, some people have turned this into an edit war as opposed to just discussing it here and coming to a conclusion. In my opinion, if you have signed a professional contract with a team... you must be part of its "current squad". 24framespersecond (talk) 05:03, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Jack Wilshire was on arsenal.com as a first team player before Randall. However, the players who are on UEFA should be here as well, because they are first teamers in UEFA competitions. Maybe they should have an asterisk next to them saying "first team for UEFA Competitions"--68.0.212.172 (talk) 10:58, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Also notice that there is a seperate page for reserve and youth players, and the majority of the 'professional' players are classed as reserve players on arsenal.com and play the majority of their games in the reserve or youth leagues and team Red&White4life (talk) 11:25, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

The UEFA squad numbers are supplied from Arsenal FC as part of the player registration process - so they're as good as Arsenal's word. Randall has played first team competitive games this season and last - more than the zero appearnces that than Wilshere (or Mannone or Bischoff) have made and so to discount him is ludicrous. Qwghlm (talk) 20:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, Kieran Gibbs was named on the bench for the Fulham match this weekend just gone, providing another example of a player named in a first-team squad by Wenger despite not being on the Arsenal.com list. It is simply not canonical as a source and doesn't have the authority to be considered the only one. Qwghlm (talk) 21:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned, the club's official website should be used to determine who is in the first team squad, and that it should be the primary source for their squad numbers. However, I see no reason why UEFA.com can't be used as a secondary source for squad numbers, with the extra players being listed with their numbers in a list of the club's Reserve Team players. – PeeJay 21:29, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Can't do that. The team wear numbers 1-11 in reserve team games. Squad numbers are for first team games only. I do believe that means that if a player has a squad number he MUST be considered a first team player.--Goonerak (talk) 21:51, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I do believe it doesn't!Red&White4life (talk) 08:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I honestly can't believe that there has been an extended discussion as to who counts as a member of Arsenal's squad when their official website has a list. You people are a joke. Charles 14:16, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Well at least we're able to do so in a civil manner and without resorting to deleting others' comments. Please don't do it again. Qwghlm (talk) 14:30, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

How am I supposed to go about this in a civil manner? Arsenal has a list on their official website of their squad. That should be the end of it. Instead, you are supporting a third party reference (UEFA.com) instead of a first-party (Arsenal.com). Your continued insistence to replace what is verifiably the first team squad with a list of unknowns who will likely never get any playing time on the Arsenal first team constitutes vandalism, regardless of how you want to spin it. Charles 19:09, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

a third party reference (UEFA.com) - wrong: UEFA are an official governing body for competitions Arsenal FC play in, and the numbers were given to them when Arsenal FC registered the players for European competition.

a list of unknowns who will likely never get any playing time on the Arsenal first team - wrong: Gibbs and Randall have been chosen for first team squads and Randall has played in a Champions League match, despite neither being on the Arsenal.com squad list - and we are only three competitive games into the new season. In addition, several others on the list (Lansbury, Merida, Barazite) played first-team competitive games last season.

constitutes vandalism - wrong: I'm using a reliable source and citing it correctly, according to policy. That does not count as vandalism under any conventional definition given. Wiping others' contributions to discussions on the matter, however, does. Qwghlm (talk) 22:21, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I've previously said this at WT:FOOTY. I believe Qwghlm's edits are correct and should be kept. UEFA is a reliable, credible source and hence the squad numbers they have can be reliably added here. Peanut4 (talk) 22:34, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The argument is not whether UEFA is a credible source, the argument is whether they are more credible than Arsenal when talking about Arsenal's squad. Anyone should be able to realize that they are not, and the fact that this discussion continues is simply dumbfounding. Charles 03:08, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually I find the two lists to be equally valid and indeed complementary. Now, if you could explain why the Arsenal.com list is as infallible as you make it out to be, when it doesn't include players that Wenger actually selects for matches - an issue you have failed to even mention - that would be very much appreciated. Without the vandalism and snide remarks about others' intelligence, please, it's getting quite tiresome. Qwghlm (talk) 07:50, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

The UEFA lists can certainly be considered reliable, and complementary to the club lists. In some rare cases the numbers are different between UEFA and domestic football - i.e. a number can be held by two different players on the two lists. Where this doesn't happen, however, it should be taken as reliable. That's certainly what I've done (and have always done) for Liverpool. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 08:36, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

It's the OFFICIAL CLUB LIST. How are you people not getting this? UEFA has no authority WHATSOEVER to determine who is a member of Arsenal's squad. Charles 19:27, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

No, I think UEFA have some authority, being the governing body of the continent and of one of Arsenal's primary competitions. And, as has been pointed out to you, they will have got this information from Arsenal, they didn't make this up themselves. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 20:07, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

You seem to have missed the comment that the Wikipedia page states that it is the "Current Squad", not the "First Team Squad". If a player has a squad number then he is part of the Current Squad.--Goonerak (talk) 20:03, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Fine, if you want to complain about what constitutes their "current squad" then let's just make it say First-team squad. Problem solved; plus, there is a separate article entirely for reserve team players. There is no reason to make it appear as if they were senior players. Charles 05:17, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Woah, hold on. You can't make a change from Current Squad to First Team squad on a whim. Every other club page has this section listed as Current Squad.--Goonerak (talk) 06:59, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The distinction between "current" and "first-team" is irrelevant anyway - the UEFA list is both current, and for the first team. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 08:16, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

ArtVandelay is right - there is no point quibbling over wording. Eightball is being continually evasive in discussing the points , both in disregarding the fact that UEFA is an official body, that the numbers were given to UEFA by Arsenal FC (it is an obligation under Champions League regulations, article 17.02) and that the UEFA list includes first team players that Arsenal.com have ignored. Instead he's reverting to arbitrary edits and refusal to discuss beyond an assertion UEFA have no right to be used a reliable source - which is totally contrary to consensus at WT:FOOTY. Perhaps now it's time to draw a line under the issue and get on with other things. Qwghlm (talk) 08:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

It's impossible to draw a line under this issue because you people are spectacularly wrong. Any change that makes a page more cluttered and difficult to read should be reverted, and I will continue to do so. Plus, you are going against the status quo that has been set for years. By the way, both the Liverpool and Manchester United articles say First-team squad and do not include reserve players. And I haven't been "evasive," I've clearly stated that Arsenal's official website is a better resource than UEFA, and I simply cannot understand how you continue to disagree. Charles 14:11, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The Liverpool FC article includes about 11 players who are cross-overs between the reserves and first-team, many sourced from their UEFA Page. You haven't addressed or engaged with any of the counter-arguments on this thread, all you've done is restate your position, but the fact remains: UEFA's squad list was submitted to them by Arsenal, and Arsenal haven't yet updated their website with this information, just as they haven't updated the list to include players that have actually played for the first-team [1]. We shouldn't be bound by that, if it means withholding useful information. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 14:30, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, but Arsenal.com has updated its website with these players, and put them in the reserves and youth section of the website. Surely, that tells us whether or not the players in question are first team players or not. As was mentioned earlier in this unbelievable debate, Arsenal have more authority over their own club players to name their first team! Red&White4life (talk) 14:53, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

But there is a crossover between the first and reserve teams, a player can be both - and if a player has been registered, with a squad number, for a first-team competition, then they should be considered a first-team player. If they have played in that competition, then doubly so. You keep referring to the club as the ultimate authority, so look at it this way: Arsene Wenger, the manager, the man ultimately in charge of the squad, will have decided that list of players and submitted it to UEFA. This is a requirement of one of Arsenal's main competitions, and is far more important to Wenger than the team's web page. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 15:06, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, let's say that the Current Squad should only include first team players. First team squad members are given a first team squad number for competitive first team competitions (i.e. Premier League, Champions League, FA Cup & Carling Cup). These first team squad numbers are only used for first team competitions. Reserve and youth team competitions only use numbers 1-11. Therefore, if a player has been given a first team squad number he must be in the first team squad.--Goonerak (talk) 15:09, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

A consensus can only be formed here if we agree to somehow display both the accepted first team squad members (Arsenal's list; by the way, to say they have updated that list is a joke, they've added Wilshere and Silvestre and removed Senderos, it's obviously up to date) and the reserve team members. Since the reserve and youth players already have their own article, it simply makes sense to include only Arsenal's first-team squad on this page. If you can't understand this then I just don't know what to tell you. Think of it this way: as fans of Arsenal you should be well aware of all the articles recently about how the team has no depth. When they say that we have no depth in the defense, do they include Thomas Cruise or Jay Thomas in the discussion? No, because they are absolutely not first team members. When the Arsenal squad is discussed without qualifiers, it is understood to not include reserve team members. Charles 17:02, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

But how can you say Mark Randall is not a first team player for Arsenal, when he has played in their first team this season, regardless of what the Arsenal website list says? Mattythewhite (talk) 17:08, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not an Arsenal fan, but anyone interested can see that depth of squad is judged by simply looking at the number of players. Anyone looking at the list will see it for what it is - a first-team squad, with a few advanced youth and reserve team players in it, as is customary among football clubs. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 17:12, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Ultimately this appears to be a choice between following how a web editor chooses to organise player lists, or the lists of players the manager has registered with football associations. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 17:15, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

No, ultimately it comes down to a few editors trying to unnecessarily change the status quo for the worse, and continually claiming (without reason) that UEFA is a better source than the club's official website, PLUS listing players that are already on the Arsenal Reserves article as if they were senior team players. Take your pick. Charles 19:45, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

It's not that it's a better source, the two complement each other just fine: there is no contradiction. Nor is there any status quo being challenged; we're just trying to find the best possible information, from any reliable source. And - to repeat - reserve squads and senior squads can crossover, that's what reserve teams are for, and there is actual evidence of this happening in Arsenal's (four-game) season. I guess the ultimate question here is: where do you think UEFA got their information from? ArtVandelay13 (talk) 19:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

You say there is no contradiction between the two, well there is because UEFA claims that players such as Jay Emmanuel-Thomas are first team players with first team numbers, but Arsenal, the club the player is contracted to, say he is a reserve/youth team player. Red&White4life (talk) 21:27, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

UEFA's list is simply a list of all players that Arsenal are allowed to play in the Champions League. This is so that if the club is hit by a lot of injuries there are plenty of backups available. It's not a list handed to them by Arsenal as their official first-team squad; if this were the case, why is Arsenal.com's list so drastically different? The simple fact that none of the players you wish to add appear on the Arsenal.com list makes it plainly obvious that the club itself doesn't consider them first-teamers. Why should we? Also, the status quo I refer to is the fact that this list has not, in the years I've read it, included reserve players alongside first team players. Charles 04:18, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

All of Arsenal's youth team players are available to play in the Champions League - you don't have to register youth team players until 24 hours before the game in question. The club has clearly seen fit to register these players (as distinct from other youth players) at the beginning of the season, and we should reflect that decision. As for the status quo, we've always used squad numbers (where applicable) to decide who is part of the first-team squad, and this always means including players from the reserve team. In fact, any such squad list will do. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 09:03, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

And if those players are first team players, what is the reason for having a Arsenal F.C Reserves page also listing them as current squad for the reserves- I thought they were first team players?Red&White4life (talk) 21:30, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Once again - a player can be involved in both squads: the reserve team is the next level below the first-team, so players cross between the two all the time. That's what a reserve team is for. There is no contradiction because UEFA's list is simply more complete than Arsenal.com's; the two sites have chosen to display the information in different ways, and we have chosen a combination of the two to get the most complete picture. There is also no contradiction because UEFA's list was submitted to them by Arsenal F.C. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 21:50, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but the Champions League has a minimum amount of players to be registered, and as im sure you all know Arsenal has a small squad compared to Chelsea etc. and it is so plainly obvious that these reserve players have just been registered to fill in the gaps. They are the type of people who will not even reach the bench, and they might be there to cover if they absolutely need to, which is extremely unlikely. They are still reserve players, but because of the first team's short numbers, they have been used to fill in the gaps!Red&White4life (talk) 07:40, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

There's a bit more to it than that - squads have always registered the top youth players in the first-team, regardless of any minimum requirement. You'll likely see some of these players in the League Cup for example. And let's not forget that one of these players has already played in the Champions League. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 08:18, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually it's totally false to say a minimum number of players have to be registered for the Champions League. There simply isn't. The regulations state up to 25 can be registered for the 'A' list (article 17.08) and an unlimited number for the 'B' list (17.15). There is no minimum squad size rule at all. Arsenal chose all those numbers of its own free will. Qwghlm (talk) 09:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

There is an Arsenal Reserves page because Arsenal enters a team into a competition that is deemed a reserve team competition. It does not mean that players that play in the reserve team are only registered for reserve team competitions. There is nothing stopping Arsenal fielding the following team in the FA Premier Reserve League: Almunia, Sagan, Gallas, Toure, Clichy, Eboue, Fabregas, Denilson, Nasri, Adebayor, van Persie. If Arsenal did, it wouldn't make these players reserve team players. The Arsenal Reserves page is to do with the competitions, not the players.--Goonerak (talk) 16:06, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Citation required?

"in all, the club went 49 league matches unbeaten, a national record." Chensiyuan (talk) 14:39, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Now cited, thanks for pointing it out. Qwghlm (talk) 15:06, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Chensiyuan (talk) 15:18, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Current squad - more things to chew on

As we are more or less getting nowhere with this argument, I'd like to add a bit of my own experience. I was part of a similar discussion on the List of Grand Slam Men's Singles champions article. An editor came in and reversed the order of the list, stating that was how every other list was ordered (from oldest to newest). I felt that it should stay the way it was (newest to oldest) because most visitors to the page would want to know who won the most recent slams (and because it is a very long list and is not easy to navigate). As you can see, the page there is order from oldest to newest, but there is a second page ordered the other way around. I, and the others involved, found this to be a very acceptable solution. Now, the argument there was similarly long-winded and likely even more heated, but we were still able to come to an agreement. Our solution managed to include both preferences, just on two different pages. Perhaps you can see where I'm going: we should be able to include both of our positions on two different pages. But wait: ironically enough, this is already the case! All the players you wish to add to this article are already list on the Arsenal Reserves article. So please, quit trying to add them here. You're helping absolutely nothing. Charles 05:12, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

But it's not that information is being repeated, it's that there's an overlap between the two lists, and it's one that should be shown. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 09:25, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Indeed - there is considerable overlap but not all the Reserve squad (e.g. Fonte, Sunu, Shea) are registered on the UEFA list and first-team squad numbers are not used in reserve matches (they wear 1-11) so it would be not be accurate. Incidentally, there is a much easier way of having a chronological list in two directions - just add the class sortable and people can pick whichever way they like - Help:Table#Sorting has more info. It's a terrible waste of time having the same list duplicated twice - it effectively doubles the workload any time it needs to be modified and is effectively a content fork. Qwghlm (talk) 10:12, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

But there is already a seperate list including the players, so what you are saying is true, there is no point in having Arsenal Reserve page and the same players on a seperate list. Either delete the reserves page or delete the reserves in the current squad section of this page Red&White4life (talk) 15:18, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

No. Overlap means some players are first-team players, some players are reserve team players, and some players are both. One list doesn't satisfy this, and nor does two completely distinct lists. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 16:10, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

So where does poor Mark Randall sit? He has a squad number and has appeared in the first team this season. However, some people want to put him in the reserve team squad. If that happens, where do we show his first team squad number? Surely that is a fact that needs to be recorded somewhere. If someone asked "who wears Arsenal's number 47 shirt?", where would this information be located?--Goonerak (talk) 16:33, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Jack Wilshere wore shirt number 55 before he was on the first team. When he was promoted to be an official first team member, he was given shirt 19. If Randall is given an actual first team position, then put him on there. Until then, no one on the Arsenal first team wears the 47 shirt. Charles 14:51, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

This is nonsense. Randall has actually played first-team competitive games both last season, and this. Here he is, clearly wearing 47 in the Twente match, a competitive first-team match, just a few weeks ago. That makes him a first-team player. Wilshere on the other hand hasn't yet made it on the pitch in a match that matters. It is not up to you who is counted a first team player. If the club registers them in the squad, they are in. And if they play there is absolutely no excuse for excluding them, none at all. Qwghlm (talk) 15:04, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Cool, I'm glad we can agree that ultimately it is down to whether or not the club registers them in the first-team squad. And since Arsenal.com's first-team list excludes Randall, I assume this discussion is at an end. Charles 15:10, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Nope, because the club registered all the players up to & including Watt with UEFA, and their squad numbers - UEFA regulations (article 17) make it clear it's the club's responsibility. As UEFA are an official body and Arsenal play in UEFA competitions, the list is legitimate. The whims of the Arsenal.com web editor (whoever they may be) do not overrule or limit the club or the manager's official submissions. Qwghlm (talk) 15:15, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Nope, because as I have already stated it is blindingly obvious that Arsenal registers the reserve players for UEFA competitions simply so they have adequate backups. Would it please you if one of us emailed Arsenal and asked them which list they consider to be more official?

As an aside, it appears you are always worried about youth players being recognized. I have to say, they are being recognized for what they are: reserve team players. Charles 15:18, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

But that argument has already been dealt with - the club can register youth players 24 hours before a match; there is no need for the club to do so at the start of the season, this is something they have chosen to do. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 16:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Manuel Neuer

Can someone take him off there? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.223.165.188 (talk) 21:40, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Done. Qwghlm (talk) 22:03, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks very much :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.169.132.31 (talk) 07:27, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Current squad

So which one of you removed the Current squad subheader? Because when I changed it to "first-team squad" I was lambasted with such phrases as "are you going to change every other article as well?" I guess when you randomly change article headers it doesn't matter, right? Charles 14:56, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

As it turns out, you were the one who removed it. The version immediately before (22:01, August 31, 2008) had the subheader in. Qwghlm (talk) 15:11, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

EDIT CONFLICT:

Um, you did User:Eightball, somehow in trying to rectify this disastrous edit here, and trying to fix it with this one. It appears to be present at all times, apart from one minute in between your edits.–MDCollins (talk) 15:13, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Hm, I assume that must have happened when Wikipedia "had a problem" when I was trying to make an edit. Oh well, it was worth it. Charles 15:15, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

And by the way, will you two stop reverting each other - it isn't helping anything. It is obvious that consensus is a long way above from reading the incredible arguments going on above, that everybody must be sick of. How can this debate last for nearly 2 weeks and still come to edits and reverts? May I politely suggest that nobody edits the squad list until some sense of agreement can be reached?–MDCollins (talk)

This suggestion is fine as long as the state the article is left in does not include Qwghlm's list of reserve players. Reserve players have never been consistently included in the squad list and I don't see why his list should get priority. Charles 15:19, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

No list is getting 'priority' - they complement each other in fact - no player has different numbers on each. The UEFA one is simply more comprehensive than the Arsenal.com one. I'm not the one who's resorted to ignoring the facts, insults and petty talk page vandalism here. The heart of the issue is this - is official data on UEFA.com considered a reliable source? If not, then a lot of pages have to have their references checked or discounted. So what is it going to be? Qwghlm (talk) 15:29, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

The same should apply for Arsenal as for other clubs. Any player given a squad number by the club (for WHATEVER reason) should be included in the list and articles should only be created for those who have made senior appearances (in any competition, excluding friendlies) DJDannyP//Talk2Me 15:32, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

The question has never been whether or not UEFA is a reliable source. I've never, EVER said that and you only imply it because it would make me look like a fool. I don't appreciate that. The question is whether or not UEFA.com is a MORE reliable source than Arsenal Football Club's official website. I simply do not see how anyone can believe it is. Charles 15:54, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

This isn't a question of priority. As far as I'm concerned it isn't about one persons list over another, it is about keeping a stable page, free from reverts and arguments. You both have differing opinions, but agreeing to keep the list stable 'so long as it's my version' doesn't really help either. Bash out your discussions here (even move the debate to Talk:Arsenal F.C./squad debate if it helps), get lots of other opinions and try to all come to some sort of agreement. For what it's worth, I have no problem with using the UEFA reference as well as Arsenal.com, but don't necessarily feel that all of the reserves/young players need to be mentioned. Surely a compromise can be reached? Even if it is players who feature in first-team matches (whether on the pitch, as a substitute, or as an un-used-substitute), and players can be added when this criterion is met? Also, if you all put some time into creating articles (such as Jack Wilshire, when he makes his first-team appearance), the encyclopedia can benefit, rather than this page being a List of Arsenal F.C. squad numbers.–MDCollins (talk) 15:38, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree that we need to have a stable version of the article. My problem is that the version of the list I keep reverting to has been in the article as long as I can remember. Qwghlm linked to an older version of the article that also included reserve players, but that doesn't change the fact the stable version of the article - as it existed before this argument and throughout last season - only included those players specifically listed as first-team squad members. If we can't come to an agreement than I see no reason the article should be changed to Qwghlm's version. Charles 15:54, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

That's not true, though - the UEFA list was used last season [2], as has already been demonstrated to you. The reason the current list has only been up for a short time is because the extra information has only recently been available. And the instability comes from you refusing to engage with people's arguments on this page. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 16:05, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

As I already said, that is only one revision that does not represent the stable version of the article as it appeared over the course of the season. And I don't see how me making consistent counterpoints that you all ignore constitutes ME refusing to engage with other argument.s Charles 16:14, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

To say the 'stable' version last season did not use UEFA as a source is utterly false. The current version of the article has only been like this since the squad numbers for 2008-09 were announced in July. Before that, UEFA's website was added (not by myself) on September 17 2007 and snapshots of the article on October 1, through December 31, February 29 April 2 & up to May 31 all include it. I picked those dates pretty much at random from the history, but I challenge anyone here to find a stable version of the article during that period that did not use UEFA as a source. Qwghlm (talk) 16:21, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

And which of your counterpoints have been ignored? ArtVandelay13 (talk) 16:26, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Well considering the discussion at this point consists of "Arsenal is a better source than UEFA" and "No it isn't," I'd say a few. Charles 21:19, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

How about this: all the players on Arsenal's first-team list are automatically on the page. Then, any player who has been named to the bench (or played, obviously) in a competitive first-team fixture this year (for example, Randall, though there were a few others on the bench as well) is on the list as well. This would ensure that all the players listed here have at least a small chance of appearing in a first team fixture. My primary concern has always been that a third of the players listed will likely never appear in a first-team match; I think this compromise would prevent that. Charles 21:19, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I think this would include at least Gibbs, Hoyte and Randall. Charles 21:26, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Wilshere has also been on the bench. As I stated earlier I stil don't see why Arsenal is different to any other football club. The standard seems to be that any player given a squad number gets put in the squad list and only players who have made competitive first team apperances are allowed to have articles created. DJDannyP//Talk2Me 21:45, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

While not totally happy with this compromise, if this includes any player who has been selected for a first-team competitive squad for the club (which will also include Lansbury, Merida & Hoyte) and not just the nascent season (we are only 3 league games into it, after all, and all three of these players have been selected this calendar year) then at least due credit has been given and we can work from there. Qwghlm (talk) 21:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

DJDannyP: I just feel it is misleading to include players in the squad list that are 1. primarily reserves, and Arsenal makes a distinction between first-team and reserves, and 2. very unlikely to see any playing time.

Qwghlm: Yeah, I meant this year rather than the season that just started (that'd be sort of pointless).

I still stand by my point that every other article makes a distinction between first-team and reserves even though it is not explicitly stated, but we're just going to end up reverting edits unless some sort of compromise is reached. Charles 22:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Right, well let's go with that and draw a line under this for now; once the Carling Cup and Champions League campaigns are in full swing there might be more names on the list and we can rediscuss it then, but this will do for now. Qwghlm (talk) 22:59, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

OK! Edited. After all this I hope this is resolved. Kept all players with a first team appearance, plus Wilshere (no one seems to doubt he's a first team now) and Hoyte (named on bench for many Carling Cup and I belive 1 premier league game). I wasn't sure whether Jay Emmanuel-Thomas had been on the bench for a game.. I might be thinking of pre-season though, so didn't include. Lets hope this has ended the discussion until January ;) BUT if any player who's not on the list plays in the Carling Cup or named on the bench/plays Premier League/Champions league, that player gets added yes? 24framespersecond (talk) 05:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Starting to get very complicated. How about this: If the player has signed a professional contract and has a squad number for first team competitions he is included in the squad.--Goonerak (talk) 06:53, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

For now, let's just leave it as agreed - anyone named in a matchday squad for a first-team competition - Champions League, Premier League, FA Cup or League Cup - and see where we are in a month or two's time & let this discussion rest. Jay Emmanuel-Thomas, as far as I know, isn't amongst them nor is Jay Simpson (who has played for Millwall's first team though). Qwghlm (talk) 08:52, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Qwghlm, I think that is a good idea for all of us so we don't waste our time on this arguement any moreRed&White4life (talk) 14:42, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Simpson has been named in a Carling Cup squad - 24 October 2006 VS W.B.A. Plus he has been in the Milwall first team... That was the reasons I included him anyway. I'll leave it up to you. 24framespersecond (talk) 03:31, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I totally missed this comment when you made it - you're absolutely right. I'll add Simpson in. Qwghlm (talk) 09:00, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

[resetting indent] As the Carling Cup squad for tonight is now out, as according to the agreed consensus, I've updated the squad accordingly - the numbers go up to 56! Please don't create articles until as & when the respective players appear for the club. Qwghlm (talk) 12:33, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind, I was going to ask if we were making articles for Emmanuel-Thomas, Ogogo and Frimpong, but apparently they didn't get to play. Charles 04:39, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

Can someone please revert Vanig14's vandalism? It's in the box at the top.Jeremysee (talk) 05:04, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Reverted. LeaveSleaves (talk) 05:23, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Jeremysee (talk) 05:27, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Location of Woolwich

Moved from somewhere above in a random thread.–MDCollins (talk) 10:53, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

In the history section it states that the original location of the team was in Woolwich, South East London. At the time of formation Woolwich was actually in the county of Kent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keithskycladmartin (talk • contribs) 10:31, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Håvard Nordtveit

User Qwghlm can you please stop reverting my edits on Arsenal F. C. and Håvard Nordtveit pages? He has left UD Salamanca for good. Altho there haven't been any official statement from Arsenal, its been confirmed by his manager, Jim Solbakken to Norwegian online newspaper Nettavisen at http://www.nettavisen.no/innenriks/ibergen/article2348443.ece. Another reliable source is http://youngguns.wordpress.com/. And perhaps you can be more polite next time, not threatening to throw out other serious contributors?Morhveem (talk) 01:37, 31 October 2008 (UTC)