Talk:Arnie Roth (character)

Name question

Within the comics and across the character's appearances, is he referred to primarily as Arnie (possibly Arnold) or as Roth? --PanagiotisZois (talk) 13:09, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

@PanagiotisZois: The character is referred to primarily as "Arnie". Morgan695 (talk) 15:11, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

@Morgan695: Thanks for the swift reply. In that case, I'd recommend changing usages of "Roth" to "Arnie", as this is the character's common name. --PanagiotisZois (talk) 16:31, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Lightburst (talk) 03:40, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that Arnie Roth debuted as a gay Marvel Comics character at a time when the publisher maintained a "No Gays in the Marvel Universe" policy? Source: Not All Supermen: Sexism, Toxic Masculinity, and the Complex History of Superheroes
  • Reviewed: Impossible Whopper

Created by Morgan695 (talk). Self-nominated at 15:28, 13 June 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Arnie Roth (character); consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Article is new enough and long enough. Sourced and neutral. Hook is interesting and relevant for Pride Month. As a side note, this would probably make a good GA nom if you're interested in that undertaking. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 10:03, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Arnie Roth (character)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Vortex3427 (talk · contribs) 02:49, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

I'll review this soon. Just a question: what makes Jeff Christiansen a reliable WP:SPS? — VORTEX³⁴²⁷ (Talk!) 02:49, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, which source are you referring to? I'm not seeing a "Jeff Christiansen" in the sources for this article. Morgan695 (talk) 03:07, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

@Morgan695: I was wondering about the quality of The Appendix to the Handbook of the Marvel Universe (ref1), a source which is hosted on marvunapp.com. The homepage states that it is the website of someone called Jeff Christiansen, or "Snood". It seems to be the same guy as this author. — VORTEX³⁴²⁷ (Talk!) 06:20, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

@Vortex3427: Reliable source per Wikiproject Comics: has been credited as a source by Marvel in their Marvel Monsters volume. Good for the more obscure. Morgan695 (talk) 15:38, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

@Vortex3427: Hi, just following up on the status on this GAR. Morgan695 (talk) 23:04, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

• The character first appeared in Captain America #268, published in April 1982. I see that this is in ref 1, but the month isn't mentioned in the body.

• Added to body.

• Decades later, the pair are reacquainted after Arnie is targeted by Captain America's adversaries Helmut Zemo and the Red Skull. It would be pertinent to mention the outcomes of these incidents

• I think to explain specifically what happens is excessive detail for the lede; the following sentence describing the character's later life communicates that he at minimum survives these incidents, which seems suffifient.

• amid the HIV/AIDS crisis. Is this supported by a source in the body?

• The Geeks Out quote under reception mentions this; Hall (2019) also discusses the character's introduction in the context of the AIDS crisis.

• on the Lower East Side of New York City. of Manhattan, New York City.

• Done.

• though the pair drifted apart as teenagers. Could you elaborate on this? The Handbook souce has some information which is useful as it relates to Arnie's homosexual identity.

• Added.

• where loses Missed a word

• Added.

• The clauses in their final moment together and and Arnie dies could be merged for conciseness

• Done.

• Does ref 15 support that he is retroactively established as Steve's childhood friend, because ref 1 doesn't go into detail.

• I think it's a bit of a WP:NOTBLUE situation that Arnie's existence represents a retcon, in the sense that the character never appeared or was referenced in Captain America stories published in the 1940s, so to introduce him in a comic published in the 1980s as Steve's wartime-era friend inevitably represents a retroactive change to continuity.

• The Appendix to the Handbook of the Marvel Universe speculated Add "Stuart Vandal of" It seems that different contributors to the site have commented on the webpage. This comment was signed by somebody going by "Loki", which is identified on another page as Stuart Vandal.

• Done. And thank you for looking into this.

• Reflecting on the creation of Arnie Roth in this context This is redundant, as this sentence immedietely follows the "context" of the previous sentence. You could change stated that it to "added" to keep the flow

• Done.

• imposed on him by It wasn't just Arnie. Could you change "him" to something like homosexual characters

• Revised.

• adopted a strategy of making You could do something shorter like "made" for conciseness

• Done.

• by other hands "Other Hands" should be capitalized, as quotes need to be verbatim.

• I've revised the relevant section.

• Ref 17 is a synopsis for a speaking event. It identifies Arnie merely as the first openly gay character to appear in a mainstream superhero comic, which is a different claim to what is stated. Hall 2019 is also cited for this claim, so you could remove this source if Hall 2019 supports it.

• I've revised the section. Hall describes Roth as "the first homosexual character in American superhero comic books" and later as "the first openly gay character in mainstream comic books", so I split the difference.

• Link hegemonic masculinity

• Done.

• DeMatteis stated that he personally regards Does he only personally regard it to be? The Uproxx source uses different wording and says that DeMatteis confirmed the connection. It's questionable if we should include it if we're only going off the creator's opinions.

• I was originally not going to include any mention of the Bucky-Arnie connection, as to your point it is just DeMatteis' own supposition and has not been commented on by, for example, the writers of the Captain America films. But it has been commented on by multiple secondary sources, so I think a passing mention at the end of the article where it is contextualized as DeMatteis' opinion and not a statement of fact is justified.

• with some critics Are they really critics if they are not writing direct reviews of the comics? Use a general term like writers or journalists

• Done.

• Delink the Internet Archive link for the book source to Captain America and the Struggle of the Superhero: Critical Essays. For some reason, it is a photo of the book cover but doesn't contain the actual readable book (I'm unsure if this is just a technical error on my end, but all other Internet Archive books are working)

• Done.

@Morgan695: I'm really sorry for the wait, this coincided with me going back to school and I got caught up — VORTEX³⁴²⁷ (Talk!) 06:39, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

@Vortex3427: Hi, response above. Morgan695 (talk) 16:40, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a. (prose, spelling, and grammar):

   b. (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a. (reference section):

   b. (citations to reliable sources):

   c. (OR):

   d. (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a. (major aspects):

   b. (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a. (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales):

   b. (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/fail:

(Criteria marked are unassessed)