Talk:Armorial of the speakers of the British House of Commons

Need for Sources

• Comment: Burke's Peerage is, of course, a fine source for matters heraldic. I still have questions about Cracroft's Peerage. The site's description begins: "Long ago I decided that if at all possible Cracroft's Peerage should be a web-based genealogical resource that is free to all users. However, it costs over 1,000 a month to keep Cracroft's Peerage going. The harsh reality is that over the years I have paid out a lot of my own money ..." This suggests it's WP:SELFPUBLISHED. This is an article we should have at WP but, the sad fact is, it may not be possible unless better sourcing can be found. This very much has to do with the lackadaisical way the College of Arms is run; as a kind-of secret society rather than a government agency. If all of these arms had been granted by the Canadian Heraldic Authority they would be easy to source as the CHA transparently maintains an easily accessible roll of arms. Chetsford (talk) 21:39, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: Several references here are to The Daily Mail. Please see WP:DAILYMAIL for more about that. Short version: don't use The Daily Mail as a source. -- RoySmith (talk) 21:21, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: Cracroft's Peerage does not appear to be a WP:RS Chetsford (talk) 00:28, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

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Thus far the article has been declined by administrators twice, both times relating to the reliability of the sources. Chetsford supports the inclusion of this article but does not trust Cracroft's Peerage due to its amateur self-published nature (which leads me to wonder how some of the other armorial list articles have survived). Roy Smith has also criticized my citation of the Daily Mail for the arms of Bercow and Boothroyd, though both cases the newspaper is used only for its photographs rather than its prose and the entries are supported by several other sources.

I have combed Burke's Peerage (which Chetsford explicitly does trust) to bolster the credibility of the list. Unfortunately most of their publications are reserved for paying subscribers (The books themselves cost several hundred pounds each!) and the only useful source one can read for free is The General Armory of England, Scotland Ireland and Wales which, having been published in 1851, does not include the speakers after Shaw-Lefevre. I have also used The Lives of the Speakers of the House of Commons which is of identical vintage and thus no better for later speakers.

The arms of Bercow and Boothroyd have been depicted reasonably frequently in image-heavy modern media (even if the blazons are sadly not included), and I have found images of the arms of Lloyd, Thomas and Martin from photographs of events in speaker's house, but the heraldic bearings of Denison to Ullswater can be found only through the dubious Cracroft. I am not sure what else I can do now, so would much appreciate any contributions of sources from Wikipedians who have access to them. For the reasons that Chetsford cites, British blazons in the last century can be frustratingly difficult to track down. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 22:58, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

• @Robin S. Taylor: I'm happy to help replace everything with better sources. I agree Cracroft's shouldn't be used. It's a good general guide but besides being self-published, it is sometimes out of date or has errors. —Мандичка^YO 😜 08:41, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
  • @Robin S. Taylor: I've started working on this. I've removed everything from Cracroft and Daily Fail and will start looking for missing blazons etc. I strongly suggest you improve the introduction so this doesn't look like a random list. It must be explained that the arms are significant and that they are displayed at the Palace of Westminster on the staircase. The Telegraph article about Lady Boothroyd's missing arms is a great article to prove notability. —Мандичка^YO 😜 12:39, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
  • It looks as if we have reliable sources for all the arms included. Shall we try a third submission now? Robin S. Taylor (talk) 16:39, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
    • @Robin S. Taylor: I think it should be resubmitted. I think the intro makes it clear it is notable. All that is missing are blazons for recent people, but it may be some time before those are published in a reliable source. —Мандичка^YO 😜 21:34, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Sir David Attenborough

BBC News [has released] a short video of him talking with MPs in what looks to be Speaker's House. Other coats of arms can be seen on the wall that could belong to those the list misses out (because they were not shown in the other photographs we've had so far) but unfortunately the resolution is too low to make them out clearly and they don't all seem to be in order. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 11:37, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

John Bercow

The rainbow colours are not featured on banner on which the motto is displayed. It's also missing in the description, although it has been featured on the official coat of arms in real life. Llonya (talk) 14:12, 24 February 2022 (UTC)